Fiona Dawson and Rita Hallgató explore the synergy of diversity initiatives and personal storytelling in cultivating a landscape where empathy flourishes across corporate environments.
Welcome to Inclusion Bites, yoursanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'mJoanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into theheart of inclusion, belonging, and societaltransformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create aworld where everyone not only belongs but thrives?You're not alone. Join me as we uncover theunseen, challenge the status quo, and sharestories that resonate deep within. Ready to divein. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding downafter a long day, let's connect, reflect, andinspire action together. Don't forget,you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out tojo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.ukto share your insights or to join me on the show.So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time toignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.And today is episode 117with the title infusing empathy. I have theabsolute honor and privilege to welcome 2 guests today,Rita Hallgató and Fiona Dawson. Rita andFiona are collaborators in D&I and storytelling.And when I asked Rita to describe her superpower, she said it is herimpossible dreams and the strength of other women.And when I asked Fiona, she said this is her abilityto listen and make people feel heard. Hello, Fiona.Hello, Rita. Welcome to the show. Hello, Jo.
Fiona Dawsonguest
How are you? Joanne. Hey. Well, as I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
said, this is my first venture into a a threesome,I guess. We can call this my first, polyamorous podcast if you
Joanne Lockwoodhost
want. So let's see how it goes. Yeah. Mymy show notes have gone out the window. We're off piece today, so anything canhappen. So Rita, Fiona, infusing empathy,who wants to go first? I'll jump in first, I think.
Fiona Dawsonguest
Are you wanting to know how we infuse empathy? Go on. Tell
Joanne Lockwoodhost
me your story. Yeah. Tell tell me your story. You're a DIY story. Tell tellus more about yourself. So Rita and I started
Fiona Dawsonguest
we realized that we are super our superpowersnaturally come together to be able to have a really powerfulimpact when it comes to corporate DEI work. So mybackground was in corporate diversity, equity, inclusion,belonging, and accessibility. And then in 2010,I left the corporate environment and started off being an independentfilmmaker. I have always recognized, of course, as manypeople do, the power of personal storytelling to be able to help build empathyand touch hearts of minds and, like, create change. Sorather than lecturing people too much or, youknow, criticizing people for not understanding or calling themhaters, Instead, my work kind of pulls away fromthat, and I create films that help peoplefeel someone else's lived experience so that you canfind things in common and therefore build empathy.That work that I started doing has kind of merged into acorporate space. And so last year, Rita and I were workingon a really cool project together, making a short filmfor a client who has international operations,and we got to create a film together for this client to be able touse for internal distribution. And we realized thatour skill set and our background was just such a nice marriageas it were, where I'll let Rita talk about, you know, where she comesfrom. But we found that when we can put these two perspectives together,we have an opportunity to be able to work with corporations and corporateD&I programs in a pretty unique way and actuallymove corporations towards creating short form storycontent and focusing on values andlived experience in order to help employeesinternally understand one another despite their theirperceived differences and help them realize they actually have a lot more in commonthan we realize on the surface. So it's,extremely rewarding work. We getto get to know people, like, at an emotional level,and help them be more intimate with their personal storytellingthan people are typically afforded within a corporate environment.So it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. Wow. I'm,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I've got loads I wanna talk about there. Rita, do you wannadovetail into, yeah, your part of that equation? Yeah. Just to add to
Rita Hallgatóguest
that, like, I have been in the corporate HR international corporateHR world for over 15 years,and I've gone independent, lastyear, early last year. And I noticed thatD&I obviously has been a hot topic in the corporate environment,even before that. And what I'm seeing is that we've not madeenough progress. And sometimes it feels that we're goingbackwards, in D&I and in our initiativesand approach. And, you know, I might even say that we'reapproaching it wrong. We're focusing on the wrong targets. AndI'm seeing a lot of businesses still in 2024 looking atdiversity as the means, Whereas I think we should be, aimingto create an environment that's inclusive, equitable, accessible, thatmakes people feel they belong, which then would result indiversity. And whilst working in this project together withFiona, we realized that, you know, we share the samevalues. We share the same view in howwe see we would approach D&I in the corporate workplace. And Ibelieve personal storytelling is exactly the means thatcompanies can potentially use and and and build empathyand and and even compassion. So that's that's where westarted collaborating. I love the way you used the word feel. And I'm a I'm
Joanne Lockwoodhost
a a passionate advocate and believer that peoplefeel included. They feel belongingthrough culture, through the environment. Now I always say thatinclusion is how you make people feel by how you treat them, so how wetreat people in terms of how they they fit into the organization. And I alsoagree with what you said there about the DEI is the input, the output, andI would describe it as positive people experiences. You know, you have a positiveexperience of working with me, working the organization as a customer, as anemployee, as a stakeholder, shareholder, whatever it may be. It's about focusing onthat outcome because we all wanna be treated positively. And Ithink that's where we get caught up with the wokism or the anti woke stuffwe get caught accused of. We're not trying to change the world. We just wantedmy everyone have a a better experience in life and and workplace.So that that what you said there was really, really resonant. And,if you don't know, I mean, I I I've been both sides of the camera.Yeah. I've been I do a lot of professional speaking, a lot of stuff incorporates. I even took part in Channel 4 UK documentarya few years ago as well. So I'm used to having people stickinga lens in front of me and saying, how do you feel? And it's kindof It's a tough gig sometimes, isn't it, building that trust?
Fiona Dawsonguest
Yeah. No. It it is. And, like, I and also foryour audience, I'll explain where I am in the worldbecause my accent is very British, so I'm aware of Channel 4.But I have not lived in the UK since 1998, andI lived and volunteered in Bangladesh for 6 and a half months. I was inPortugal for a year, and then I ended up in Houston, Texas in theyear 2000. So I've lived in the US now for 24years, eleven and a half years in Houston, moved to New York, 9total in New York and DC, and then back to Texas.So in my filmmaking work and capacity, I didn'tgo to film school. I just literally quit my job make mydreams come true, and there you go. And I had the good fortuneof connecting with people, and I'll specifically name, like, GabeSilverman and Jamie Coughlin at Side by Side Studios.They collaborated with me on the trans military project that Istarted in 2012, where wewere sharing stories of active duty transgender servicemembers in order to raise awareness that they were still banned from theUS military, and that project lasted around8 years or so. And so it was through that experience ofworking with Gabe and Jamie that I learned some of the practicalaspects of filmmaking. So I've somehow become a a direct afilm director, but I love being on cameraas well. Like you, Joanne love hosting stuff. Like,I'm working on an unscripted show that I that I host. But Ithink that when it comes to creating a spacefor people to feel comfortable sharing how they feel,Of course, the foundation of that is trust, andI had to had to learn, but also I thinkthat I know my personality isthat I do create a place where people canfeel vulnerable because I am willing to be vulnerable too.
Fiona Dawsonguest
Like, I'm willing to share parts of me, and I think that when wedo that, it can be symbiotic. It's like a dance. Like,I love interviewing people because Ilove forgetting that the the cameras are around,the lights are around, and it's just me and that one orsometimes 2, 2 people that you're interviewing, but it's like adance and, like and you're connecting with the eyes and, like,you just allow to that person and elicit theirstory. And, you know, I'll share, you know, parts of metoo, and it's like an exchange. You know? I don't think you couldexpect someone just to pour their heart out if you're not willing topour your heart out too, And, of course, I have to create space whereI'm not taking over. It's not too much of me, but somebodywho's creating an environment, excuse me,somebody who's creating an environment for somebody else to share has to beable to share themselves as well. And, that's whatI found in this work, you know, and if now, like, maybe 14 yearsof making films and it's, it'svery, very powerful, and I think that you you see theaudience's reaction afterwards, and, like, with the trans militarywork, we had the short film on the New York Times, and then thefeature documentary premiered at South by Southwest, and so I wentto a lot of different film festivals. And after watching those films,like, the number of people in the audience that will come up to you afterwards,thank you for doing the work, and thank you for sharing the stories.
Fiona Dawsonguest
And I had so many people who privately cameout to me after watching the film. So you like, you're in atheater and, like, you're the the film director, and they're comingup to meet you. And there were several people throughout the yearof touring with that film that would kinda take me asideand whisper that, you know, they're trans and they're early in their transition, and noone really knows. And thank you so much for sharing these stories because ithelps me see that I can beout. Like, I can be myself and, you know, our characters as theywere, you know, who are real people, They their stories inspiredother people and helped other people feel less alone. Soit's it's really awesome to now, like, take thatexperience of being an independent filmmakerand take it into corporations because most peoplego to a corporation or go to some business for their job,and they spend more time there than they do at home. Andso why would we not take this work into abusiness where people are? You know, I want to affect change, and so I've gotto take it to where people are the majority of the time. And it's justa really beautiful experience. I've I've got so much I wanna dive into there,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
but let's let Rita chip in first before we, come back. Yeah. To
Rita Hallgatóguest
just add to Fiona's words, I mean, corporate workspaceis such an amazing place where personalstorytelling can work in 2 ways. It can be educative,but not in like telling what people to do, but you know, usingempathy and, you know, using personal stories to to sharehow people, you know, feel in their workplace. And there are a lot of businessesout there who are very inclusive, you know, who are very accessible.You know, people feel they belong, and and it gives them the opportunityto show it to other people inside and outside of theircompany who I think, you know, you could benefit more fromusing personal storytelling. And on the other side, I think ithelps businesses who are very early in their inclusive journey,to to learn more about, you know, how they how they couldmake make it more inclusive. And Fiona is amazing at that. Like, I mean, mysurname literally means listener, but I'm not a listener.I'm not really good at that. And I sat through interviewswith Fiona, you know, listening in the background as the executive producer.And the safe space she creates is amazing, andand it's truly truly amazing to to listen how sheconnects with with the people she interviews and and shares theirstories. Thank you, Rita. Yeah. Yeah. We have a a
Joanne Lockwoodhost
mutual virtual hug here. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So whereabouts in theworld are are you, Rita? Are you Texas as well? Or are you, somewhere else?
Rita Hallgatóguest
Jo. I'm actually based in I'm based in London, but Iyeah. I'm originally Hungarian. So obviously, people can hear myaccent. Some people can even guess that I'm having Eastern European accent, but I'velived in the UK for about 12 years and a year anda half in between in India. But yeah, I've spentalmost a third of my life in the UK so far. So, yeah, I'mbased in London. They were all kind of displaced because I was originally born in
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Singapore. I didn't live there for long, but I was originally born in Singapore. SoI guess I'm not living in my country of birth either. And thatthat shared that shared sort of lived experience. It it'sI think it's remarkable that you've you've you've both fallen intowhat you do and together. I'm I'mI'm conscious about the fact that, you know, Fiona, you live in Texas, which isn't,from an outsider's perspective, isn't the most tolerantof of administrations within the state. And,Rita, your your Hungarian background, we we can all see a lot ofchallenges emanating from Hungary and certainEastern European countries and the attitudes of old.So do do you find that you're having anuphill battle to push against maybe the infrastructurewhere you're based, or or do you find it's quite an Joanne open door you'reworking I got you a person on reach. Or a meet to get person. Gotit. Yeah. I mean, I think the D&I space is an
Rita Hallgatóguest
uphill battle. Like, you know, we've all seen thatD&I budgets are being cut. And it's kind of, you know, thesame uphill battle as in a lot of other things, but, in in the corporateworld. But we're definitely seeing fellowpractitioners, and D&I colleagues telling us, you know, howthey would love to do a number of things, but they, they aren't ableto because, you know, when when budgets are tight, unfortunately,D&I budgets are the first to to be cut, even within the peoplebudgets. And and it's really sad to see, butat the same time, I think it it gives us power, morepower to fuel into myself, to to push backand to maybe educate leaders thatthe way they've been thinking about D&I is not the right approach.And and because I think a lot of leaders expectedinitiatives to bring immediate results, and itdid not happen because the approach has been wrong. And it's not ait's not a sprint, it's a marathon. And I think that's wherethe early learnings, you know, for fellow D&Ipractitioners came from when, you know, we all started doing bits andpieces, and and we realized, you know, hang on. This isn't gonna bringmeaningful change. And now we're facing thischallenge that I think a lot of us now know howwe would approach it or how we should approach it, but now we don't havethe budget. So it's a bit of a catch 22 situation wherewhere I think we are finding our way to make this work in the corporateenvironment. But now a lot of the lot of the inhouse D&I practitioners don't have the budget. So, yeah, definitely anuphill an uphill battle. Yeah. We see I mean, I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
see a lot of rhetoric in the obviously, I'm UK based at the moment. Alot of rhetoric in the UK press around the government talkingabout D&I initiatives are a waste of money. They haven'tdelivered the benefits. All this kind of pushback. And I think even here, thesame from the US in certain, you know, government issues. They're pushing backagainst EDI, D&I training. I thinkyou you both made the point that people went into it without theright expectations, without the right momentum andlongevity. They're not tracking it. They're seeing D&I as an overhead, which why we're seeingbudget cuts. We're not seeing D&I as an investment. In the same way, wesee maybe leadership development or the people space. It's always still seenas an investment often. So I think we need to move that narrative fromseeing D&I as a cost and a hassle and and awokeness and a and a and a sojourn we have to sort of fight ourway through to actually leveraging productivity,happiness, discretionary effort, reducehiring costs, reduce turnover, reduce onboarding, all these kind ofimmediate, which we can quote Gartner and McKinseyand all these stats that the cows come home. But a lot of companies justdon't get it right, do they? And I think the storytelling you're approaching it with,for me, is key. Listening to the impact you're gonnahave with people's lives. Yeah. When you say, Laffy, I know it'speople coming up to you afterwards having experienced thecontent you're producing and with a tear in their eye with thestory to tell back to you. That must be immensely empowering. Yeah. It
Fiona Dawsonguest
is. Like, just, oh my gosh. Hearing you say those words until I got chillsand getting emotional just thinking about it because it is. And youcan't separate that experience from aworkplace as well. Like, I think for traditionally, you know,workplace has been where, you know, leave your personal life athome, leave your feelings at home, leave everything else at home, work, go to work,you know, be a machine at work, and then and then go backhome, and, like, we know that doesn't exist anymore. You know, that model of theworkplace, you know, is is gone, isvanished. And I think, like, going back toyour point about where we are in the world, you know, I'm inAustin, Texas, so it's the capital of Texas.
Fiona Dawsonguest
I actually happen to be in a WeWork that's on congress, and Ican see the state capital from from this building.And so I am faced with the politicians in Texason a daily basis, and Ipersonally love being in this place in the worldbecause I feel there is so much great work tobe done. I do work with, Equality Texas.Like, that's the one not the nonprofit that my company, FreelineProductions, does work for, and we're helpingeducate, entertain, and inspire through personal storytelling withEquality Texas. And I thinkthat talking about both in theUK and in the US and states across theUS, how, like, DEI is being canceled and gotten rid of,I personally believe it's not going away. It's justshifting and it's got, you know, it's gonna probably be labeled something else.But when you're talking about people development and leadership, you can'thave a leadership training if you don't talk about the just diversification ofyour workforce. Like, from stats here in theUS, like, 1 in 5 Gen zidentifies as LGBT. You know, the future isvery queer. Not only here in the US is it very queer,you know, white people by numbers are gonna beless than 50%. I mean and that's just a fact, butwe're all, like, spiritual beings having a human experience. We just happen to be putinto different human needs. So, you know, so it's like, ifyou want to be a leader, you're gonna have to educate yourself onwhat these humans are going to look like andbehave like and be culturally raised in order tohave a successful workforce, in order to have a successful business.And, you know, Rita and I know, like, studies show that when you have aninclusive environment, it's better for your bottom line. Like,we've known that for a long time. But instead of going, oh, it'sbetter for the bottom line. Therefore, I need to hire this many, youknow, black people, this many gay people, you know, this manypeople living with disability. And if I get them all together in a room, thenwe're gonna make lots of money. And, of course, we know that's rubbish.It doesn't work like that. Like, you've got to be able to beless afraid of bringing vulnerability,kindness, courage, empathy,joy, fear, sadness, grief,all these things that we all experience. Let'stalk about them at work as well. I mean and that's whenyou start to create a space where people can be seen andheard. A lot of people say they don't like labels, and I can understand that,but labels help you find each other. You know, I'm a very out andproud bisexual, cisgender, immigrantwoman living with a non apparent disability, and I'm gonna give thoselabels so that somebody who's also living with one of those identitiesknows that I can relate to potentially to their experience, and we can talk aboutit. And and that's that's what we I think we need to to bring intothat environment. So, you know, one more thing I'llsay, then I'll stop talking because I really just feel like I'm going off inmultiple angles. I just think that we're living in atime of the universe, of the world, of society,where there are massive shifts happening. There's a big change,and change is extremely scary to lots of people. Andso if us as d DEI practitioners,storytellers, people who build empathy, if we can helpcarry people through change and help decrease that fear,then I think that, you know, we'll create places where everybodycan, be happy and live in joy. And with you, yeah, I mean,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
we we should all be queer meat sacks. I think that's probably a good wayto look at it, isn't it? Yeah. Exactly.
Rita Hallgatóguest
Yeah. And, and Kionna talked about, yeah, Kionna talked aboutsociety. And I think it's super important toremind ourselves that corporations have the ability andpower to influence broader changes in the society. And Ithink we, or people in corporations and especially people inleadership tend to forget that, that, you know,everything starts somewhere, and big companieshave that power. And leading by example is superimportant in businesses because that's wherewe're able to make broader changes and, you know, changingthe society from the individual's perspective is is a lotmore difficult. But if you look at, you know, the big enterprises and theway they make changes in their policies that affect, you know, theiremployees could have easily a broaderimpact on the society. So that's why I believe thatwe do have to focus on educating andhelping corporations to really bring those changes andnot just pay the lip service because that's where wecan then influence bigger bigger changes and and notjust, you know, in the UK or in the US, but in places like Hungaryas well or in, you know, other other countries. We've we've seen examples
Joanne Lockwoodhost
where the power of the corporate voice, if youlike, for want of a better word, corporate allyship. We've seen it with in Floridawith Disney. We've seen it with the bathroom bill in the US wherecorporations basically pulled out. Was it South Carolina for a while andsaid, we're not gonna operate here if you're gonna have these discriminatory tactics. We'veseen people putting pressure on Bermuda and places like that whereships are are registered, where they ban gay marriage. So we've seenthat going on. We've seen other regimes being, you know, if youlike, ostracized Myanmar and places like that in the worldwhere they they look yep. Queer rights have beenpushed back. But then we see governments such as the UKgovernment and the potential next USgovernment, almost red light or green lighting, sorry,anti trans and anti gay type rhetoric. And it it'swe we need to stand up as a as a as a as a corporatenation, if you like, because my time in corporate life is verywelcoming. It suddenly becomes messy for me inin in pits of society influenced by the government sometimes,and I think that's that's the struggle. So, Fiona, you wanted todive in there? I wanted to add something as well, like and I
Fiona Dawsonguest
totally agree that, you know, businesses, corporations do have thisopportunity to continue their leadership in this space. And when itcomes to budgets, you know, when a DEI budget iscut, really, I would love to see marketing teams jumpingin. Like, marketing teams typically have much, much largerbudgets than DEI, and I think that here inthe US where a few companies, particularly last year, werekind of, like, in hot seats based upon theiractions with DEI, like, if marketing andDEI were communicating really, you know,in in foots in step together, then a lot of that I think couldhave been very different. And I think with the work thatRita and I do, you know, when it comes to filmmaking,I personally would love to work with amarketing team and a DEI team, but the marketingteam with a DEI perspective because those budgets are gonna be able tofund the kind of films that we're making and the animation that we'remaking. It doesn't have to be labeled DEI,and I think people you know, marketing teams will spend100 of 1,000, if not 1,000,000 of dollars on flashy ads and that kind ofstuff. But for a smaller budget, you could make an authenticindependent film and have incredible impact.And I I just think that there is so much opportunity that's outthere. This is this is not like a desert.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So, Basa, I understand you you work with a lot of start upsand, entrepreneurs, buildings, you know, building hope hopefully,hyperscale businesses. They have the ideal opportunity toto start with EDID and InclusiveLeadership at at heart, but often often often they're founded bya tight knit pair or small group of of college leaversor whatever it may be. And it's often hard for them to bring otherpeople into their mix in the early stages. So how do you encourage businesses likethat to embrace the power of of ofof of of more of of a broader demographic? I mean, it's
Rita Hallgatóguest
it's not easy because when founders start theirbusiness and, you know, they try and make it work and they theytry and build a viable and long term sustainablebusiness. Often, you know, the people part is important,but it's not the number one priority. Like, you know,they they would hire people who willhelp them to get to that next stage to to toachieve that goal. And in an ideal world, it wouldhappen along with a long term people strategywhere they are building a sustainablework place from the get go. Butto be fair and honest, small businesses, you know, struggle a lotat the very beginning, and I don't think D&I andsort of inclusion proactively comes into the picture beforethey reach 60, 70 employees. And, youknow, I don't blame them because they have so many thingsto be worried about. And and and, you know, we don't getto see those businesses that don't even make it to this stage Joanne and alot of them don't. But there's definitely an opportunityand and not by, you know, they don't need to hire a D&I practitioneror a or a senior people leader from the get go, butthere's definitely opportunities for those foundersand leaders early on to educate themselvesand to be conscious and mindful about how they are going tobuild an inclusive workplace. And what I'mhearing and seeing the most is oftentimes leaders don't know whereto start and that's that's another problem, right? Like, okay, I want tobuild an inclusive workplace, but where do I start? And, and, and that'swhat makes it, makes it difficult. And I think us as fractionalpeople leaders like myself, you know, have this opportunity toto support these founders and and build thatworkplace. But it's it's unfortunately in avery, you know, difficult business environment. It'snot a not an immediate priority. Yeah. I I've I've experienced very similar
Joanne Lockwoodhost
in some of the works work I've been doing. It's a shame because whatwe're effectively saying is D&I isn't important untilI can afford it. Where we should be saying Yeah. D&I shouldbe integral to the founder's mindset at the very earlystages because you can't afford not to do it. You know, when we talk aboutthese businesses struggling or not growing or not not succeeding,is it because they haven't got that diversity of mindset? Theythey're they're giving living in an echo chamber. They need to broaden their horizons onthat. Yeah. And it's I think it starts with
Rita Hallgatóguest
this, you know, small simple things. And and a lot of these foundersmight still think, you know, with numbers in their head, with diversity intheir heads. And how many times we heard, oh, we don't want quotas. And it'sexactly it's not it's not what they should start with. If you thinkabout inclusion, you start with policies. Right? Look at all yourpolicies. How inclusive are they? Are they allowing youremployees to be their true themselves to be, their truethemselves? And are they allowing them to feel belongingand and is your workplace accessible? So there are some veryeasy, you know, starting points to look at.
Rita Hallgatóguest
And then secondly, it's talking to your people, listening to yourpeople. And I've had an amazing colleague who,taught us, you know, don't fall for the solution.Fall for the problem. And I've seen that a lot, especially in theHR world when and in the D&I world as well, when when whenthose leaders are like, oh, I've got this great idea. Let's implement this. Butis that really a problem in your business? Do you really need that? Whilst, youknow, going in a different direction where you ask your people, you know, what dothey need? What would make them feel more includedin your company? And there you go, you've got your actions. And so Ithink it's simple. It's just the approach where we putdiversity away as the means and we focus on how do we make thisplace accessible, equitable, and inclusive.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. It's it's really hard though managingdiverse groups of people. I mean, I'm I'm the chair of a board of aprofessional association, and I've got 9 peoplewith vastly different backgrounds, thinking styles, ages,genders, and perspectives. And it's reallyhard to to chair that board sometimes where you're trying to alloweveryone to have a voice, move things on, reach consensus,and if you like, work with the disagreementsor work with the differences of perspective to bring that harmony wheretogetherness where we make a decision that we all stand behind. It must bereally hard, you know, as you say, in a startup environment where founderswanna, you know, in quotes, get shit done and make things happen. Andthey've got all these people. They've gotta say, oh, I've gotta be nice to them.I gotta be nice to them. I just wanna just wanna get on with this.Is that is that some of the challenge there, Rita? Yeah. But I think it's
Rita Hallgatóguest
a challenge everywhere. But it's like it's a sprint. It's not a sprint.It's a marathon. And so I think we need to approach it differently as well.Like, you know, do we want an an immediate decision anda and a consensus which, you know, might lead to someresults? Or do we actuallyallow others to to add their inputand feel heard. And yeah. So I think it's it's adifficulty in every any workplace meeting, whether it's asmall emerging business or a large corporation. But Ilove working in those challengingenvironments because that's how I learn. And I think if we allowourselves to be vulnerable in the sense that, you know, Idon't know how to, let's say, moderate a meeting like that because there are somany different kinds of people in there. But I'm going to allowmyself to be open to that experience and seehow it goes, then we might actually get something more meaningful out of that.Maybe it takes a little bit longer, but it would definitely, I think,bring greater results. Thank you. Fiona, you you you
Joanne Lockwoodhost
talked about getting marketing involved, and that really thatreally resonates. Because I'm thinking here, brand. Brand isowned by marketing. And when we talk about recruitment, we talk aboutemployer value proposition. We're talking about recruitment marketing. We talk aboutJoanne and culture have to figure very heavily in our marketingstrategy and in our recruitment strategy. We're not gonna recruit peoplewho don't resonate with our brand. And what what we tend what what I, inmy experience, what I tend to find is when people are going through the hiringprocess, the the the hiring manager or the hiring teamhave a disconnect of priorities with the corporate objective. They'retrying to fill an empty chair. They're trying to get their project done. They're tryingto make something happen. And they'll they'll just go, oh, here's a CV. Let'shire them. Or, yeah, I know somebody, and we we all the bestinclusive hiring practices go out the window because I've got aCV on my desk and they'll do. And for thepriorities, you know, hiring velocity, cost to hire, and the experience. You can'thave them all high. You gotta spend more money to get better experience oror slow down. So I often see recruiters and the hiringmanagers breaking away from the corporate objective. And whatwe really need as a practitioner, I always say, I need to jumpleapfrog the hiring team and talk to comms, talk to marketing,talk to HR, talk to the DEI people, and get them to do apincer movement on the hiring teams and say, okay. Now we need to think abouthow we can hire more inclusively in a more in a morecontemporary hiring process than just the way we've we'vedone it, which means we always end up hiring the people we've alwayshired. And that's not to say they're not the right people, but that we haven'thad the choice to evaluate whether they're the best people. Is that Right. Us backinto marketing? Yeah. I I mean, I think that
Fiona Dawsonguest
with all of this, it's kind of breaking down as many silos asyou can within an organization and ensuring that allof these different teams are communicating andcollaborating together. And I think that comes down to creating a culture and anenvironment where that happens organically andstarting off potentially with, you know, workspaces, whetherpeople are physically at a building or whether they're online or whatever, be ableto create, as Rita was saying, like, an accessibleenvironment physically and culturally inorder, you know, for these conversations to happen.And I think if you, if you want to take it back to marketing andthe external comms, I thinksharing content that isactually authentic and actually genuine and isn'tjust, you know, placating to an audience and, you know, somebodythinking, oh, you know, we want to I'm gonna use LGBT againbecause it's my world, but, you know, we wanna we wanna hire more LGBTQAplus people, therefore, you know, we're gonna go sponsor this thing at pride,and we're gonna create this ad with this, you know, cutecouple of, you know, 2 genders and that way we're gonna attractall the gays. And it's like, Jo. Let's take astep back. And let's, you know,create content that hasmore of organic authentic feel to it.And the one of the tools that comes to mind is creatingreally strong ERGs, you know, employee resource groups orBRGs, business resource groups, and being able to engage theemployees that you already have and make sure that thoseERGs are also intersectional. So a lot of companies will have, you know, apride ERG of veterans, people with disabilities. Butall of us human beings, in addition to being meat sacks, we can usethe analogy as icebergs where only 10%of who we are might be, you know,apparent above the surface, but most of who weare is is unapparent and beneath the surface. And you don'tbelong just to 1 ERG. You know? You've gotmultiple identities. And so I think that starting with thoseERGs, you know, and then bringing people together in collaboration,making sure that marketing is including ERGsin their decision making, you know, potentially start off with sharingstories of people that belong to ERGs and kind of, like, growingup from there. And to, you know, reiterate what Rachel wassaying about it being a marathon and not a sprint is, like, always bearthat in mind. Like, just the smallest little actioncan sow the seeds of really long term significantchange and making sure that it is alwaysauthentic and always comes from heart. And it's notjust checking a box because they think it's the right thing to do. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I from a meat sack point of view, I don't think anyone's evershouted out from the rooftop. We need to hire more trans people. Mhmm. But theythey we don't fit on their Noah's Ark sometimes. You know? The Noah'sArk has to have black people, white people, disabled Right. Disability.Maybe some gay people, maybe some lesbians. Well, we're not sure about bisexual people.Oh, what about the bisexuals? Yeah. I mean, do you wanna talk about the
Fiona Dawsonguest
bisexuals? I mean, could that Let's go there. Yeah. Let's go there. Well, I I
Fiona Dawsonguest
mean, for me okay. So I'll share something.So when it comes to marketing, for example, say you're marketing to thequeer community and oftentimes whenpeople are represented, like stock imagery, for example, like stockimagery could do with a bit of an injection of inclusionbecause they naturally go to, oh, let's put, like,2 men, and I'm gonna use, like, binary gender language.Jo we've got 2, you know, cute guy cute guys that are gonna be assumedto be gay, or we've got 2 women that assume to be lesbians. Buthow to get bicep how do you represent bisexuals in that imagery? Because anyof those people could be bisexual. And if youhave, you know, content where you've got somebody who ispresenting, you know, female or male gender and thenanother, you know, female gender, they're not necessarily straight. Youknow, one or both of them might be bisexual. And then if you wannareally go further, like, what about families that have more than 2adults in their makeup? You know, where do they belong? Going back toRita's policy, like, here in the US, your health care is dependentupon your policy. What about families that, you know, are inpolyamorous relationships, but you can only put one add on yourhealth insurance? You know? What do we do with that? So it's likeconstantly thinking about ways that our societiesand our systems have set up barriers to access the basicthings you need in order to take care of yourself and your family.So yeah. So the but bi bisexuality just for the record,let me let everyone understand here in the United States, studies showthat close to 60% of people who identifyas lesbian, gay, and bisexual are bisexual. Sowe are not actually represented so much in media and filmmaking andTV. We've got all these stereotypes and and tropes. And,you know, I've got a book if anyone wants to understand more about it.That's that's a whole other podcast conversation, Joe. Oh, yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And, I mean, just to chuck another grenade in there. The,you the imagery you you you portrayed about these these cute2 men, these cute 2 women, they could be bisexual. Well, they could be nonbinary, and they could all be trans as well. Right. You know? Exactly. I Ispent 50 odd years of my life, and no one knew what was on theinside. Jo, yeah, we don't know, do we? Exactly. So And mostmajority of people. Most trans people also identify
Fiona Dawsonguest
as bisexual, so realizing that there's a difference betweenbiological sex, gender, and sexual orientation,and the US military is the world's largestemployer of trans people. More than 15,000
Joanne Lockwoodhost
It's now a safe space to be out, to be supported. I Iknew a I still know a a colonel in the air forcewho is trans. She she gets a hugeamount of respect being a colonel, obviously, becausepeople salute her and look up to her and and they do as shesays. She she gets far more respect and support being as part of the militarycommunity than she ever would in in in civilian life and out outin the streets. So Yeah. Yeah. It's it's well recognized under thisadministration. The military is hugely supportive, isn't it? Well, I
Fiona Dawsonguest
mean, you might be talking about Sherry Sawowski, who is ayes. Retired Sherry Sawowski. No? Okay. Somebody else. Soshe's, she's a retired colonel in the US military. So in fact,prior when trans people were still banned in the US military, there wasstill the large the US military was still actually the largest employer of trans people.So this isn't a new phenomenon. Trans people serve in theUS military at twice the rate than cisgender or non transgenderpeople do. So we need to consider, not just in the US, but the
Fiona Dawsonguest
military is a workforce as well. And so how aremilitaries around the world providing an inclusiveworkforce? But I think thelike the the US military haslong had a history of providing aspace for trans people to be gainfully employed,to have community, to have a job that feels likeyou're part of something bigger than yourself, to access health care, to beable to get education, you know, all of those things that acisgender person would like to have as well. So it's notnew that the US military has been in an environment where trans peoplehave been able to serve And, yeah, it depends on differentunits. It depends upon your leadership on how you're treated. So, like, when theban was still in effect, we found that there were manypeople who were out as trans and serving despitethe Joanne, but because their leadership knewthat it the ban was wrong, and they didn'tcare who you are, like, what your gender is, do you have myback out where it matters? And thatyou know, can you do your job? And so those people are allowed toserve, and then you would find other units where there might be, youknow, transphobia or a leader that did not getyou as a trans person. And then that's when you ostracized,you know, potentially kicked out. So Ithink that the military ban ontrans people was outdated policy, going back to policy as well.It had nothing to do with the government. I mean, nothing to do with government.Of course. It's part of the government entity, but it wasn't like it wasoutdated policy that needed updated. So it didn't really matter so much asto who was president. It was like, is the Departmentof Defense going to update their medical policies andinclude trans people to be able to serve? Andfinally, they did. And then there was a bit of a bump with 1president from another, whatever. Couple of executives and things You bet. Just ignoring him
Joanne Lockwoodhost
for a while. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Because it was an executive order,
Fiona Dawsonguest
like but now, you know, trans peoplecan serve openly, but then you still need to update your policies toinclude intersex people. 1 in 100 people are bornintersex, meaning they can have any combination of male andfish, male and female sex tissue chromosomes and orhormones. And for the longest time, because of howyour genitals look, you have been prohibited from serving inthe US military, which is kind of ridiculous. And so it's like just beingon top of, and that's where, again, like Rita and I, I think have thisgreat collaboration where she's the expert on the policy in the HR.Like I know enough to be dangerous on that. I'll be thestoryteller, but marryinglike updated policy with sharing someone's livedexperience and you can help build intuition. Rachel, I can see you.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
You're dying to get back in there. Come on. Go for it. No. I mean,
Rita Hallgatóguest
I I love that Fiona brought that up because I recently read areport of a large global consultingfirm. And I was I was going likenuts about it because they were talking about numbers.Right? Like D&I report was just all numbers. And here's asimple solution for for businesses. And, you know,just reflecting to and Fiona said, you know, the US military justjust you know, quote unquote, needed to, you know, change their policy.How about if companies and corporates startreporting their inclusion numbers and not their, you know, this isthe number of this type of person we have. This is the number of this
Rita Hallgatóguest
type of person. So let's talk about, you know, what's the gender pay gapin your business? How many and what kind of policies have beenimplemented to ensure, you know, equality, equity, inclusion,etcetera? How do the carrier of members or underrepresentedgroups, track, etcetera? So, you know, let's nottry and always talk about numbers, numbers, numbers, because it's almost likeshowing off like, oh, look at how diverse you are. But are you trulyinclusive? Here's a simple solution that any company could do: ditchthose reports and start talking about the typeof policies that you implemented and the changes that you made sothat your people, wherever they come from, canfeel themselves and and included. And and I think the theUS military is a good example of, you know, they could have talked aboutthe numbers, but, the the true changecame with a policy change. So we we know
Joanne Lockwoodhost
we've talked about it already today thatdiversity, inclusion, equity, belonging, all these kind of things, theculture influences better outcomes for business.We know that. It's been out there for for donkey's years. We know we knowthis. But what we've also gotta recognize is the facts don't change people.We still drive too fast. We still eat too much red meat. We drink toomuch wine. Even though these things are bad for us, we shouldn't do it.So for whatever reason, organizations aren'tseeing these kind of work initiatives or strategicinitiatives as being beneficial. And then we talked about the start upsnot seeing it as a as a something that they they can afford in theearly days. So how do we get businesses to to start to dosomething? Because as I said, the facts don't change people. We we look at theWorld Economic Forum as talking around a 160 odd years for gender equity inthe in the in the workplace in the western world. If you look at theglobally, it's sort 250 years, I think, when you include China and the Middle Eastand those sort of places. We have to encourage those with thepower, those with the privilege, which this is pick apick a a demographic out of their head. This is straight white men as aas an example who often hold the power and privilege. How do we getthem to enable the change? Because you can you can stand on the outside ofthe castle banging the door down all you like, unless someone's prepared to openit for you and welcome you in. How do how do we get how dowe get people who hold those privileges to to open the door, to have theconversation? They're scared. They don't know what to do. They're worriedabout being marginalized themselves. You wanna go first or you want me? I'm
Fiona Dawsonguest
ready. Go on then. Jo for it. I I just say 2 words,
Rita Hallgatóguest
and then I'll let you go. And by like, I think it's simple by buildingempathy and and and compassion. I think that'sthe very first step. Yeah. And I
Fiona Dawsonguest
sorry. Have you have I got interrupted you? Okay. Good. Ithink to build on what Risha said, like, and how you do thatis to help straight white men see themselves as diverse because theyare diverse. We all are diverse.There's not it's not like straight white cisgender men versuseverybody else. Like that's the approach we've beentaking, going back to all the numbers. Like if you're, you know, we've created an
Fiona Dawsonguest
environment where straight white cis men feel like they're left out of this conversation andtheir shit, and we need to change thatexperiences that are beneath their surface that no one is talking about.And that doesn't mean that we're leaving all the marginalized people behind.What it means is that we're opening and we're making the tablebigger for everybody to get there, you know, andhelp like that straight white cis man has faced adversitytoo. And now we've created an environment where if that manwants to share his story, he's feelinglike he's been told to go sit in the corner and be quiet, andit's making it worse. Not only does he face adversity, butmaybe he has kids who have, or parents or other familymembers. And so that's why I think that we needto share everybody's story, including the straight white cisJoanne. And those people who were in power and leadership,I'll give them the opportunity to be able tolead and include everybody withoutfeeling like they're not included in that work.And, and the 4 steps that I feel that you go through is like self
Fiona Dawsonguest
awareness. So every human, if we couldall increase our self awareness and if that straightwhite cis man can help increase his own self awareness too,and then it's awareness of others. Because once you've worked on yourself, it'seasier to understand and work with otherpeople. And then it's, courageousaction and collaboration. But you're more likely to take courageousaction collaboration if you've done your own work. And to get a tinylittle bit woo woo here is like elevating consciousnessand realizing the spirituality that we all shareand that everything is going to be okay. Like,another analogy for you, you know, when you like Jo off on anairplane and like say down, down on the ground, as I know in theUK, it's raining a lot and you'vegot this cold cloud cover and you've got allthis grotty weather on the bottom. But when you get on a plane and yougo through those clouds, it's always, if it's thedaytime, it's always gorgeous blue sky and gorgeous bluesunshine. And it's like all the joy and the prettiness that we seeAnd that joy and prettiness never disappears just because of thelayer of cloud. And so just being mindful of that and remembering thatwe don't have to take ourselves and each other quite soseriously, like all these stories that we make up in our minds.You know, we're born to love and that's what we should do in and outsideof the workplace. I love that analogy. I love the idea because, yeah, I was
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I flew to San Francisco a couple of weeks ago, and you spend a lotof your time above and above or at night when you see some beautifulstars out there as well. So, yeah, I love that analogy. And I think whatyou're saying there is it it's emotional intelligence 101 really,isn't it? Self awareness, the awareness of others,connecting, collaborating. That's that's what we're talking about. Jo,Rita, what's your vision of the future? Yeah. Are we are wegonna make a difference between us? I hope so. I I mean, I'd
Rita Hallgatóguest
like to see today when all companies havetruly inclusive and diverse boards and senior leadershipteams who will be the champion of inclusion and acceptance.Are we gonna get there in the next decade? Maybe not. ButI do believe that at some point, you know, we're we're gonna get closer tothat. And so I'm going to, you know, do everythingin my power in order to to to trulybuild inclusion and and and equality in the world, which,you know, I think including more people and being moreinclusive doesn't mean excluding others. And andand I believe, you know, we can do this work,build inclusion by remaining still positive and andbeing on that, you know, upper up above that blue sky, and no one needsto feel, that, you know, they are under those grayclouds. So, yeah, I I hope so. I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
like that. You we we we gotta recognize we can't buildinclusion by excluding and leaving people behind.This is a this is a we thing. This is a together thing. It's acollaboration thing. I'm a great believer that EDI, D&I,whatever acronym you wanna use, is a cut it's a collaborativesport, not a competitive sport, because it it's about combiningour resources to to everybody succeeds, not tryingto succeed ahead of somebody else. So, yeah, I I love that.Fiona, what's your what's your vision here? Where are we where's theworld going? I was like, I know we're gonna get there because I'm
Fiona Dawsonguest
seemingly positive. And I hopefully it will be before I'm 90years old. Jo we'llsee. But no, I, I do. I, I think that weare truly living in a very fascinating timein, I don't want to say history, but in time of theworld, like, I just think it's really cool thatI think big systemic changes happening. I think it's for thebetterment of societies, but it's extremelychallenging to go through that. And like, like Rita said, like, I willdo everything in this lifetimeto do what I can to help build a world ofequity. I know that I have been born with many privilegesand I see myself as called to use the privilege thatI have to be able to help other people. And Isee good. I I think it's happening. Gonna be a bumpy road. It is abumpy road, but absolutely. Being committed and, you know, I think,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
you know, we we look at some of the leadership models. 1 of them isone of the things is is commitment to the objectives. Commitment is isa we need to have courageous conversations. We need to stand up for what webelieve in because there will be people who wanna push back, and that isis having that strength of character. I think the thing we can do asas consumers is we can vote with our pound or our dollar or ourcent or whatever currency and make sure we're amplifyingbusinesses that support our own values and our own brand ethics.So even if we can't change the incumbents, we can make surethe next generation sprout the green shoots we want tosee. And then the the other organizations will willwither on the vine and become less relevant. You know? Yeah. There's there'smonolithic companies of the past. We've only got to see what's happened to thisthe Twitter share price over the last, year or so to torealize that hate doesn't doesn't sell. Yes. It maybethere is a people who who will finance hate, but, fundamentally, it doesn'twin. Hate never wins. I just because cooking pushingthat pushing that fight. Wow. For my first,threesome, my my my my amorous podcast here. I probably remember How
Fiona Dawsonguest
was it for you? It it was it was it was fascinating. We're all in
Joanne Lockwoodhost
different countries and different time zones. Well, I know I suppose Rita and myself, we'rein the same time zone, same country at the moment, but, the electrons are flyingaround the world. Jo, Rita, how do we get a hold of you? How dowe find out more about what you do? I mean, I'm
Rita Hallgatóguest
mostly on LinkedIn. People can find me on LinkedIn and, you know, I I dohave a website too, but usually LinkedIn is the easiest. Rita Hallgató, althoughmy surname is not easiest to to remember.But, yeah, I'm I'm on LinkedIn. I'm quite active there. Andthen, you know, Fiona and I are collaborating together onon, on different things. So we often talk together onthings. And yeah. So that's that's where where I'maccessible at most. Fabulous,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
and Fiona So on
Fiona Dawsonguest
LinkedIn, Fiona like the princess, Dawson like Dawson's Creek, Ithink my LinkedIn URL is, like, free lion, so I'm easy to find there.And then the website, free lion productions.com, and we have apage, for Rita and I's collaboration. So you can readabout us there and find Rita there as well. And there's also a pageof my filmography, so you can see an example of, like, the docs that I'vedone and the animation and that kind of stuff. Jo, andemail, fiona@freelionproductions.com. Thank you so
Joanne Lockwoodhost
much, Peri. I've really enjoyed this conversation. As webring this conversation to a close, I want to express mydeepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lendingyour ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Iftoday's discussion struck a chord, consider subscribing toInclusion Bites and become part of our ever growingcommunity, driving real change. Share this journey withfriends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voicesthat matter. Got thoughts, stories, or avision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.And let's make your voice heard. Until next time. Thisis Joanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to returnwith more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire,and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world,one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.
In this heartfelt episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood regales us with an enlightening conversation about "Infusing Empathy" with guests Rita Hallgató and Fiona Dawson. They tackle the often-overlooked topic of involving straight, white, cisgender men in diversity initiatives, the power of storytelling within corporate spheres, and the essential nature of empathetic leadership. Rita shares her vision for a future enriched by inclusive and diverse leadership, while Fiona converses with Joanne about the optimism she holds for systemic changes, and her commitment to leveraging privilege for the greater good.
Fiona, after leaving her corporate role to chase her passion, became deeply involved in projects spotlighting the stories of transgender military members through filmmaking. Renowned for creating safe spaces for vulnerable storytelling, her work has been met with heartfelt thanks, particularly resonating within the trans community. Rita supports Fiona's narrative-focused approach, advocating for its profound impact on corporate culture. Together, they confront the cutbacks on diversity and inclusion budgets and the consequent challenges, reinforcing the imperative for a revolution in leadership mindset towards these initiatives.
The episode navigates the complexities of creating inclusive environments, with Joanne emphasising the significance of building such spaces together. Joanne and her guests share personal experiences and insights into how consumers can influence change through conscious support of aligned businesses. Discussions also revolve around the nuanced experiences of transgender individuals in the military and the outdated policies that hinder them, as well as the broader societal impacts of corporate policy on inclusion.
Listeners are left contemplating the episode's resonant message: Change begins with empathy. The conversations orbit around the potential of promoting inclusivity and allyship, not just within corporate companies but across the societal fabric. Joanne and her guests then express the need to shift our collective narrative to view diversity and inclusion not as a fiscal burden but as a valuable investment for organizational and societal progress.
A key takeaway from this episode would be the understanding that empathy isn't just a personal virtue but a cornerstone of systemic transformation. Audiences are implored to embrace inclusive practices and storytelling as tools for change, with the ultimate lesson that every individual can contribute to a more empathetic and unified future. This episode emphasises that regardless of one's position, we all hold the power to foster an accepting world, both in our workplaces and beyond.
The views and opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of Inclusion Bites, SEE Change Happen Ltd or Joanne Lockwood. This episode is shared for general interest and discussion; we accept no responsibility for the accuracy or completeness of any statements made.
