Serving with Pride and the Battle Against LGBTQ+ Discrimination in the Military
Emma Riley explores her poignant journey from silence to advocacy, highlighting the profound challenges and triumphs of championing LGBTQ+ rights and visibility within the military and beyond.
Welcome to Inclusion Bites, yoursanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'mJoanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into theheart of inclusion, belonging, and societaltransformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to createa world where everyone not only belongs butthrives? You're not alone. Join me as weuncover the unseen, challenge the status quo,and share stories that resonate deep within.Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffeeor winding down after a long day, let's connect,reflect, and inspire action together.Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach outto jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.ukto share your insights or to join me on the show.So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time toignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.And today is episode 122with the title From Silence to Advocacy.And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Emma Riley.Emma is the program governance and operation manager for the GlobalPrivacy Office of RX. And when I asked Emma todescribe her superpowers, she says she is articulate enough tospeak in high stress situations. Well, let's hope today isn'tthat stressful. Hello, Emma. Welcome to the show. Hi, Joanne.
Emma Rileyguest
Thank you. Thank you for speaking with me. Absolute pleasure. We
Joanne Lockwoodhost
met recently, I think, at, an event in London, and,you told me some of your story, which we'll get on to in a minute.I'm really fascinated to find out more. So I called this episode fromsilence to advocacy. Do you wanna give me a bit of history of whatwhere where you've been over the last few years, I guess.
Emma Rileyguest
A few years, more like few decades. Short version.Yeah. So I I'm I'm gay, but I didn't really know thatuntil sort of mid Idon't know. And end of my teens, really, beginning in my twenties.But I I had a history of being bullied a lot at school,so quite quite silent in that sense and that, I didn't get a lotof chance to sort of speak at that point. I then joined the military, theRoyal Navy. And again, silence was very much partof my identity there because at the time that I joined, itwas illegal to be gay in the military. So we can talkabout what happened to me then, but basically what's happened since then isthat I I've, tried to usemy voice where I can to do a little bit ofgood, to try and change what happened to me into something thatactually does does something better for the worldthan actually what happened to me. I hate bullying in all forms, and so Itry and challenge that when I can now. I I'm also ex forces. I I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
was in the I joined the RAF from school in 1981.That time when Charles Diana got married. It was that July.I joined in October. So and I I remember it was very itwas drummed into you right from the very beginning around drugs are bad,being gay is bad. There's a lot of things are bad. Yeah. Or we won'tit's going to kill people, by the way, as well. So Yes. Yeah.There's the bad things you could do, but, actually, this is something you should youshould be thinking about. And I always remember that that that there's sortof there's always this kind of humor about if you were gonna sit on someoneelse's bed, you had to make sure you have both feet on the floor, thenit was okay. If you lift if you both have if if you well, youhad to leave one foot on there. Otherwise, it's good to see. It was one
Emma Rileyguest
it was one foot on the ground. You had to keep one foot on theground, which is fine, I suppose, if you're in the the bottom bunk. Butin in in a ship, you've got 3 bunks, 1 on top of the other.So if you're on the top bunk, you've got no hope. But it is definitely
Joanne Lockwoodhost
drilled into you in those days that, it was up it wasthere was no tolerance. And Oh, absolutely. When when I
Emma Rileyguest
joined, literally, the first thing you do when you walk through the gates of Raleighis you go in, you get, sat down in this big sort of grouproom, and you get handed your contract to sign. And in the contract, itsays that, homosexuality is illegal. So when I'mthere, 18 years old, I only turned 18 about3 weeks previous to joining. And I was Ithought maybe I might be gay, but I wasn't sure. I'd never had anyexperience to actually confirm that. And and having spentall my school years being bullied quite a lot, what I wanted wasthat sort of belonging that you can get as part of themilitary. I wanted to belong to that tribe. I wanted to serve my country. Andso any thought of being gay was then straightoff the table. That was not gonna be happening to me. So I,I, it is right in front of you the moment you walk through the doorthat that is not something you can be. But how did you
Joanne Lockwoodhost
cope? Yeah. I mean, you've got some more depth to the story, which you cantell me in a minute. But, so how how did you manage tosuppress, repress? Because you you you you mentioned just now that you you youjust, well, realize that sense of self later in life. Soaround the age of 18 is probably just where you start to figure stuff out.
Emma Rileyguest
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, well, as I said, it it just I just wanted toserve my country. I wanted to belong. I wanted to be in thatcamaraderie that you can get in nursery because I'djust experienced that as part of my school life at all.So I just threw myself into thetraining and I threw myself into the work and I was,I did really well at it. I was part of the last class of womento be trained separately from men in the Rennes. And so I had the
Emma Rileyguest
choice whether to volunteer for C or not, and I absolutely I wasyes. That was an absolute yes for me straight away. So I thendid my secondary training as a radio operator, HMS Mercury, and I waspicked to be class leader of that class. And that was the first evermixed sex class that went through HMS Mercury.So going through that as the class leader was a huge step up for an18 year old who was, you know, very unsure of herself at that pointin time. But I mean, what an opportunity. And again, I did,I did well in my schooling as far as that was concerned, and then cameback to the IC training and went off to join HMSCornwall, a Type 22 Batch 3 frigate, as the first groupof women to go on board that ship, which was a hugelylucky draft actually. The other people in my class from Mercurywent to, I think it was ARC Royal and then Vistimel, so ouraircraft carriers, And they didn't go, hugedistance, but with the Cornwall, we did our basic operationalsea training. And then we were lucky enough to do things like West Indies guardships, so I got to see the Caribbean andAmerica and so forth. So I was at risk extremely lucky with my draft.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
What what year is it when, Wim were finallyallowed to to leave the show and get on a on aship? There? What what year was that? It was basically 1990, which was when I
Emma Rileyguest
joined. So I 1990? It it's 1919, 91 they werestarting to put 1 on board ship. So Cornwall was were going through arefit as I came to the end of my secondary training. And sobeginning of 91, I think it was, that I joined,and, yeah, we were the first ones to to join. It was quite quite athing with a lot of resistance to having women on board. Sothere's a lot of kind of overcome. I remember the,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
stuff in the press, the, the first sea lord will say this willnever work and all this kind of stuff. It was kind of this is andthen the ships weren't geared up fordifferent people, were they? They were kind of, you're a float. You just get youjust pile on top of each other. Suddenly, uh-oh, women, how to bethey don't know how to communicate adequately with the languages.
Emma Rileyguest
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you end up either being bullied. Youget caught split, turtle, bike,whatever, or you you you kind of become one of the lads. It's sort ofa little bit of both of those two things. So you end up having totry and hold your own space if you can. And there's somebody who'dbeen bullied and and was not particularly confident in their ownself. So that was quite a difficult situation to go through. But I absolutelyloved being on board ship. It was brilliant. And again, Iwas good at what I was doing. So I really enjoyed it a lot. Did
Joanne Lockwoodhost
you find over time, you were able to get respect?
Emma Rileyguest
I'd like to say yes. I unfortunately didn't quite findthe sort of camaraderie that I was hoping for when I joined.I I loved what I was doing, but I Idid end up in pretty much every place. I would get somekind of bullying. Like, for example, on board the ship,they in West Indies guardship, they put together, like, a alocal radio station. So, you know, somebody playing recordsor or whatever and doing a bit of DJing in between. And theydid a pretend, what's it called, request for me,and they said, and here's one for Emma Riley, and it was, TammyWynette's Stand by Your Man. Of course, the first line issometimes it's hard to be a woman and you just think, oh,goodness sake. And then later on when I was at, I think it was H.W. Cochrane. So I was doing guard at a communications center and justoutside HMS Cochrane. And and in in the women'sblock, there's a kinda in outboard. So everybody's,you know, you've got a little peg and you put it in out, whatever, andyou have your name next to it. And every day I would come back tofind the w from my WRO, as we were called then. So WrenRadio operator, the w would be wiped out every day, every day. Justlittle microaggressions that you'd call them that. I didn't know what it was at thatpoint. It just made me feel outsider,basically. So there were some good people, but there wasalso that kind of stuff going on as well. Now all radio operators
Joanne Lockwoodhost
are just radio operators. There's there's no distinction now, is there? And Yeah.
Emma Rileyguest
Exactly. I mean, in fact, the w officially gotdropped not long after I left, I think. I'm not quitesure of the date. Yeah. Well, yeah, I I remember the similar sort of thing
Joanne Lockwoodhost
when I was in the air force around, the rafts WAFs,and and it was almost likewe have to allow women in, but they don't do anything serious. You know, itwas they were great in the war, code breaking, doing all the things that we'veever celebrated for, but actually, oh, actually firinga gun. Not sure about that. Oh, no. Rifle. Yeah. Well, that's this is why
Emma Rileyguest
they were calling us, turtles. Because ifyou're a turtle, because if you're on your back, you fucked. Excuse me.That's the sort of level that they were at at that point in time. I'msure it's a lot better now, but I'm sure also there are plentythat are just as like that nowadays. Never heard that slang before.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
That's that's awful, isn't it? Yeah. It's not nice. Soyou you you obviously had your your naval career, and you were enjoying it.You were good at what you did. You were presumably gettingpromoted, seen as excellent in what you were doing. I was doing
Emma Rileyguest
doing quite well. But, yeah, fast forward. So that was 1990 Ijoined. So fast forward to 1993, I Iwas more sure of my sexuality. Basically, I sortof needed to confirm in my own head what I thought I might be.And so one evening I went out in London on myown with nobody else. Nobody knew I was going to do. And I basicallywent to a gay bar and got picked upsort of, I kissed a girl and I liked it. So it was like,okay, alright, so let's file that away. I'm still not intending todo anything about it. I'm still, you know, completelyno no relationships, nothing like that. I'm still absolutely focused onwanting to serve and stay in the Royal Navy. Butlater on in 93, my father gotreally, really ill. So then my father's havingquadruple bypass operation. He's having blackouts. I'm trying to support my mumgoing down to see him going in and out of hospital as that's allhappening. And I'd found it
Emma Rileyguest
harder and harder to deal with the sort of small bullying, butalso to just hide who I was in my own self.It becomes incredibly stressful.I is huge. So so by the time I got to thesort of it must have been September 1993, I wasin a not a great mental state. SoI was working in the communication center in HMS Faz Lane up in Scotland,the submarine base. And one day, myselfand the person I was sharing a room with in the block, we just wentout for a drink in Helensborough and Iwe'd we'd had a few drinks. I thought she was my friend. And so Isaid, I think I might be gay somewhere in the conversation.And she was pretty, supportive at that point. So I hadthis really kind of euphoric moment where I thought, okay, I've said it out loudand it's going to be okay. I don't have to do anything about it. I'vesaid, I'm not going to do anything. I still want to serve. I understand therules kind of thing. And so I kind of came out of that eveninga little bit on a high, if that makes sense. And then it was,yeah. Next morning, get up, get dressed, get downstairs. You're under arrest.And what she'd done of course is phone up the military police and dubbed me
Joanne Lockwoodhost
in for being gay to them. So I had the SOB. I had Yeah.Especially when you're asleep and they wake you up like that. Yeah. I was Yeah.
Emma Rileyguest
Especially when you're asleep and they wake you up like that. Yeah. I wasterrified. I mean, because you know the rules. So you know if they'regoing to be able to prove that you are going or that even that theyprove enough to themselves that they think you are going. That's
Emma Rileyguest
it. It's all over. And this is all I've ever wanted to do since theage of about 13, 14. That's what I decided I was going to do withmy life. So, yeah, they, they, I gotup, I got downstairs and I got dressed. And then I was interviewed for, Idon't know how many hours, 3, 4 hours or something. You know, the old taperecorder interviewed 2 SOB officers and a chief friendwho was supposedly my support during this interview.And, I mean, I can't remember the questions theyasked, but it was just continuous pressure to admit that you weregay. And at one point I just got so upset that theystopped the tape and said, okay, let's have a 15 minute break and you cancalm down. And I must have said something to that chief friendin the break that was incriminating in some way becausethe moment I remember the moment the SIB came back in theroom, and they turned on the tape, and the g friend was like,right. During the break, Emmer Riley said this, that, and the other. And you justthink that's it. She's not my support. I am completelyalone in this. It's just a joke that they havesomebody there to supposedly support you. Then none of nobody'sinterested in that. They just wanna get that conviction. So afterthat, they take you up to your room to go and search through all yourbelongings. And Looking for what? What are they looking for?Well, this is the thing. Being gay. Oh, oh,well. You see, you say that in a joking way, but literally,we're standing outside the door, these 2 SAB officers and thisgnarkey chief friend. And one of the officers says, so doyou have any, electrical equipment? I'mthinking, what? So I to my credit, I said somethingalong the lines of, well, if you mean dildos or vibrators, no, but please dosearch the rest of the block. I'm sure you'll find some. And thanks for howhow on earth is that in any way proof of lesbianismthat you might have some electrical equipment, especially in a women's block.I mean, really. But yeah, they, they wentthrough everything and actually evidence wise about theonly things they got were, I had a few letters to a pen palwho was outside the Royal Navy, where I had spoken about the fact that Ithought I might be gay. So, okay, there's a piece of real evidence. Right?The other two pieces of evidence that I remember are,the suede album cover. And I don't know if youremember the first suede album cover, but it was basically 2 people kissing, asort of a CPF photo of 2 people kissing. And there was thisbig debate on at the time about, is it a man and woman, 2 women,2 men, who, who is this? And so they took that as evidenceNow, as it happens, it is actually 2 women, one of whom is in awheelchair, but nobody really knew that at that point in time. So aSuede album cover was, was evidence. The bestone was that they confiscated my Julian Clarymincing to her video. Because again, anybody whowatches Julien Clary obviously must be gay.Right? I laugh about this now. At the time, itwas so humiliating and so terrifying. And, andactually what they were looking for is not only proof that I was gay, butthey were looking for names. Yeah. They wanted other people, didn't they? They theywanted other people. Witch hunt it was such a witch hunt era. Andhaving spoken to other veterans now in the last coupleof years, who've gone through similar similarexperiences, I mean, I can tell you stories like, there was one poorgentleman I I spoke to who he'd been thrown out because ofhis sexuality, and they'd found another military person'sname and his belongings, gone after this chap and this poorchap that they'd gone after committed suicide. So this man has beenthrown out. He's lost his livelihood, his life, his identity,etcetera, etcetera. And now has to not only deal with the shame ofthat, but also carry the guilt of that otherman's death on his conscience for the rest of his life. It's the mentalcruelty is astounding.So you'd find out what the motivation was for your
Joanne Lockwoodhost
friend to, was there a motivation? Was there akind of a I I never spoke to her again.
Emma Rileyguest
They moved me out of the the room with it, ofcourse, but still in the same block. Of course, I'm still in the same base.I'm still eating in the same mess, though I'm not working in the same placeas I'd say. Everybody knows what's going on, and prettymuch everybody keeps their distance from you. There were a couple ofpeople who were who were really kind to me that Iremember. But most people don't want to be tied with the same brush. Theywanna, you know, keep that distance. But no, I never spoke to
Emma Rileyguest
that person to find out why they did what they did. In fact,as I've done a few bits of speaking, particularly inschools actually, they ask so what would you do if you ever met thatperson again? How do you feel about them? And I I kind of vacillatebetween, on the one hand, you know, being generous,they were following the rules. They did what they were supposed todo, which is tell the military police that there was agay in their midst, terrifying as that may be.And on the other hand, you just wonder what threat was Iseriously? Supposedly a national security threat because ifif I'm gay, then I can be blackmailed. Well, the only reason you can beblackmailed was because you've got a ruling place. You're not supposed to be gay.And all this nonsense about gay people being able to, inpositions of power what's the word?Make a junior do their will, you know,bring them into gay. Well, coerced them. Thank you. That's word I was looking for.Convert. The worst that means they convert. Yeah. Correct. Gay gay world.Right? It's an utter nonsense because when you're looking at thedifferences between males and females, you know, there's just as muchchance a male officer or a female officer will do the same to a juniorof whatever sex as there is if they're gay. It it the whole thing isan absolute nonsense. Yeah. I I was, I've also
Joanne Lockwoodhost
experienced the SIB for for different reasons at the time.And as a result of someone reporting mefor something, when and I won't go into that in on this podcast. I've probablydone it on a previous one, but, yeah, I I also was interviewed,with 2 scary men, basically, pointing,shouting, stomping their fists on the table Yeah. Telling me,confess now. It'd be much easier. We're gonna have you in the end if youdon't get it over and done with. You know, if you just if you justcome out with it now, this will all be over, and we can move on.It's like Yeah. There's a bunch of amount of pressure and bullying to makeyou conformally. And I was only I was 18 at thetime. I was kinda scared. You know, I'd done something wrong. Yeah. I had.Like, you I knew it was wrong. It's part of those 10rules you shan't do when you're in the forces. And Yeah.And, again, the blackmail and the all these sort of things and people feeling likethat. And, yeah, it's it's a scary time, isn't it? AndI I ended up I ended up exiting the forcesvia a little town in in Essex called Cofdister. So Ispent a few days, which is the, Oh. That that's the that's themilitary prison or the Yes. Place you exit the military if you've been convicted.So, yeah, I I got, chargedand taken in front of the station commander, hat off, march in, get, toldyou of punishment, walk out. I didn't elect the court martial. I was,I thought it's not gonna get any better than this, so just get get ridof me. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a tough time when you're that young whenyou're, yeah. Okay. I'm I'm not trying to sit here and say I've I wasinnocent. I on the scale of things, what I did was nothuge. I mean, what you did was with you you kissed 1 girl and said
Emma Rileyguest
Well, yeah. And that's and that's that's that's the extent. Literally nothing else.Yeah. I I think it that that's the thing that seems tomark particularly the the cases about againstgays in military is the the mental cruelty and soforth that goes with it. I mean, for me, there was all of that thathad happened, but then then they sent me home to tell my parents. Thatwas that was pretty horrific. A forced coming out.
Emma Rileyguest
So they sent me home, And, you know, I have to tellmy parents that not only am I going to likelyexit the Royal Navy, and they are so proud of me serving,you know. But also that I'm gay, and I'm absolutely terrified.Absolutely terrified. I I remember,viscerally the the room where I was sitting when I was trying to tell myparents all about this. And and I spoke to my mom, you know, in thelast, again, in the last couple of years and say, how how wasI? Because there's only so much you can hold on to from thesedays. And she said, it took me about 5 or 6 hoursto stop crying long enough to actually tell them what was going on,which yeah. Horrific. SoI I go back up to the base and survived the last couple ofweeks or however long it was. And then you go up to captain's table, andit's your judgment is given, and it's discharged. Sure.Your services are no longer required. And they,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I've got one of those. Yeah. They're redundant. May may redundant, basically.
Emma Rileyguest
Basically, yes. So, I mean, in many ways, I my myexit was a lucky one because it was an honorable discharge, quote unquote.I didn't get the red writing at the top for dishonorable discharge. So that didn'taffect my future employment or anything like that. As far as thatpart of it is concerned. I mean, they made me sign a pieceof paper to say that I wasn't going to challenge the decision.And so I did sign it, but I said the only reason I'm notchallenging the decision now is because my father is so ill. Because, again,you gotta remember, my father's just had a quadruple bypass, sohe's not in the best of health as all of this stuff is going on.And then that was it, 26th November 1993, handykit bag, which I basically unceremoniously dumped itall on the on the quartermaster's floor as I left. AndI kept everything that wasn't on my kit list. So I have a really randomassortment of bits and pieces. Like, I think I've got a tie, ashirt, a cap, and a greatcoat. The greatcoat, Ionly wore for the first time last year to march with fightingwith pride to the cenotaph as part of the remembrance day parade.That's that's how long it's taken me to even put that on.So, yeah, it was it was pretty horrific. And then I gohome. My parents collected me. My parents hated what was goingon to me, and they absolutely hated how they were treated at thegates because they were totally given the silent treatment,like personal non grata. They didn't want anything to do with my parents. And therewas just me coming out of this gate on my own. It was prettyhorrific. And then, yeah, I have to go home andredraw my entire map of the world, basically.Find out who am I now I'm not in the military. AmI am I really gay? Am I not? Find some kind ofidentity because, of course, in the military, your identity is all wrapped upin what you do. That is who you are. You are the job. Andactually work out what in the heck I was gonna dofor work cause I had no clue. So I spent maybe 5, 6weeks at home licking my wounds and trying tostart living again, I guess. Just I don't know. Andthen you kind of have to put one foot in front of the other.So I ended up looking at my skills from the military and going, okay, sowhat can I do? Well, I can, I can shoot an SAAT, but that's notthat useful in civilian life?But as a radio operator, they teach you how to type. So and Ityped at, like, 65 words per minute or something like that withvery few mistakes. So I thought, okay. Well, I'll just go to a temp agencyand say I can type. And I ended up doing it'slike filing Clark and, you know, all that kind of low low levelstuff. A bit of temp work here, there, everywhere, and did did that fora while. And then ended up doing a filing job for 1company that turned into a permanent job for a bit. And that was that wasquite useful because it gives me my first taste of the corporate world.And I found out that I was quite good with, like, fax machines,if you remember those, and printers, you know, stuff like that. So itwas a bit, like, technical. Because I'd we'd done stuff like that in the military,
Emma Rileyguest
and you just learn to give it a go and try and work out what'sgoing on. So when I decided I wasn't gonnado that anymore, I thought I'd find another position. And I ended upfinding a position as a help desk call taker. So I wasn't fixinganything, but I was taking the calls to log them. But as part of that,I started learning and starting fixing things. And then thefrom there, joining who was then Butlers Tully,part of LexisNexis Group now, as an IT analyst,like a base level IT desktopsupport person, and ended up, you know, opportunityas I either got bored or as opportunities came, I wouldgo, oh, look. There's an opportunity of debt. Okay. Let's give that a go. Andand then, you know, end up I ended up running the desktop support for LexisNexisin the UK, which was, you know, it was a great job, quitestressful at times, you know, as desktop support normally is. And then variousthings happened, and I ended up working in project engagementfor the IT thing. And then that sort of changed intoproject governance for a while, and I ended up doing projectgovernance at another group company. And I've nowended up through being a program manager for the privacy office. I'mnow doing program governance and operations. So I'm managing a team inManila who do stuff for our privacy office for ourcompany. I've run projects, so we're literally in the middle of kickingoff 7 Asia Pacific projects at the moment for privacyprograms. And I I absolutely could not have told youin a 1000000 years that that is what I would have ended up doing.I'm basically a jack of all trades and master master of none. Andat 50 almost 52, I've started to work outactually what I'm quite good at. But I alsothink, just imagine if I'd exited the the militaryon my own terms, I probably would have been in thisposition 5, 10, maybe even 15 years ago.So the the effect of my career has beenquite devastating. And that doesn't even touchhow what the effect has been on my mental health or or haveinteracted with people or or my relationships or ortrust and so on and so forth. So there's a huge other piece to it
Emma Rileyguest
that gets impact. Do you think the what you went through at that
Joanne Lockwoodhost
young formative age helped you build some resilience? I mean, I lookback at my life and I think, actually, when you haveall that worry, all that stress, all of that stuff going on your head, thefact that you're now thrown out into the street, nocareer, all the shame, all the all the pressure around you, you can sit thereand and cry and hug a lot in a ball, or you can say, okay.Dust yourself down as you say it. I think it's gonna do Yeah. I Idid I did I was filing, and I I did this, and I got ajob through what I was doing as a temp and doing all this. Andsuddenly, I built a new career, and I look back at some of the peoplewho who stayed in the apprenticeship course that I was on. Andthey said, to be honest, after we left training, it was never asgood as we thought it was gonna be. It was a bit of fun. Wehad a laugh, but, actually, the best years were the 3 years at the beginning,which I did. So I I look back and think, okay. I got into SylviaStreet and and built a life rather than maybe exiting inmy late thirties, early forties maybe. Yeah.Yeah. And having to start again, having been, if you're not, indoctrinated into themilitary lifestyle and and way of thinking. So, yeah, I lookback and think, yeah, I I don't I don't I'm not gonna I'mnot gonna put it on my CV as a a learning opportunity, but, you know,with with hindsight, it it did actually give mesomething. It matured me up really. And I look back now, I think itcould never get this worse. It was bad again. Yeah. If I can I canadd anything? Yeah. And I I so one of my favorite phrases is worst things
Emma Rileyguest
happen at sea, which I can completely attest to. You know, if you've had afire at sea or any of the other things that have happened to me, youcan yeah. It's nothing worse than that. And and I I do agree,having gone through that, it definitely built resilience. Infact, I I was talking for my company on athey did a a pride pod not podcast. Well, Isuppose you call it a podcast, basically. Just a broadcast, you know, for the companythan where they interviewed me for what I've what I've done and what I've gone
Emma Rileyguest
through. And unbeknownst to me, our CEO was listening.And at the end, they bring him on to say a few words. And whatwas interesting to me and quite amazing to me is thathe said, people like me makegreat executives, because they've gone through so much,they've overcome so much, they don't getphased by the small stuff. So your your abilityto hold and manage stress and stressfulsituations or complex situations is a lot higher thansomebody who's not gone through that kind of experience. Now, likeyou, I would certainly never advocate going through that kind of experience as alearning tool, because frankly, I really wish I hadn't. And it'sit's damaged me in many different ways. But froma from that perspective, yes, there isan advantage, if you like, in that I've been able to dothat. I would add though that there has to be akernel of resilience in you to begin with to be able to buildon, because, again, hearing some of the storiesfrom veterans, you can see who's hadthat and who hasn't had that. Itit it a lot of the time, I think, it depends on what support youhave when you come out. I was lucky that my parents were completely supportive ofme, so I had a home to go through go to. And I knowmany had not only just had their careersdestroyed and their identity ripped away, but they also then had their family'sdoors slammed in their faces. So there's there's there'smany layers to that. You didn't take this lying down though, did you? I wanna
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I wanna hear what happens next. So what happened next? Youin the middle of getting thrown out and starting your new life, youyou did something quite extraordinary, and I'd love to hear more about what youdid to change change the UK. Well Change theworld. So I had, as I said, written on the written on
Emma Rileyguest
the paper, you know, I'm only not challenging this because my father is sowell. Well, I kind of that was always in the back of my mind. SoI got thrown out. I sort of started my career build,and I got to about 5 years into it.And I had a permanent job that I was enjoying. So this is when Iwas working as help desk. At that point, I had agirlfriend for the first time, a proper for the second time, in fact. So it'sa much more serious relationship. And I felt comfortable enoughin my own self and sexuality and mycareer and who who I was at that point where I thought, okay. This isthe moment where I can start to look at doing something about it. Because I'dit it comes back to that thing. I hate bullying because I've been bullied allthe way through school. I've been bullied in small ways when evenwhen in the military. And then at the end of it, bulliedinstitutionally by being harassed andhumiliated and thrown out of it. So I wanted to try and change the narrative.So I basically phoned up Stonewall, And I have to thankwhoever I spoke to on that particular call because they gave me the numberof a solicitor who was taking another case, a similar one tomine, about being thrown out of the military. And Iphoned up that person who was Stephen Gross of binBindman and Partners and spoke to him. And he'she took my case, basically. So I self funded myself. This is allalone. And I know at the time, they were rank outsiders doing lots of things,sort of politically and pressure wise and also building casesfor what would become the the 4 headline cases at the time.But I just went alone to this solicitor, told my story,and said, I don't want to do something about it. And what we didfirst was you have to go into the UK courts first. So Itook the Ministry of Defense to court. So it's me versus the Ministryof Defense. And it it didn't work. Itwas trying to say that sexuality should bein the same category as gender, as faras discrimination is concerned. And, basically, the UK courtsdidn't allow that. There was a a precedent from Southwest Trains that was used tothrow the case out. And the case itself was it was the the onlytime I actually went into a court, because it went it was a public hearing.So I was there with my barrister, and then there was, Ithink, 3 QCs, who would they be king's council now, butthen queen's council then for the Ministry of Defense. So it was like it wasridiculous. It was David and Goliath. Andthat that that was that was quite a scaryexperience to sit in that courtroom as that whole thing was being talkedthrough. But as I said, we we found out that that wasn't going to goahead because of this previous precedent. So then the only other option that wehave is to take effectively take the UK to court in the EuropeanCourt of Human Rights. So here we have more conversations,more evidence gathered that I can talk about, and the whole thinggets filed out with the European Court of Human Rights. So that is now thebeginning sort of April ish, I think in, 1998.And so every so often we get letters back and forth. There's another question that
Emma Rileyguest
they ask. We are trying to get transcripts of my interview tapes,which, oh, surprisingly, the Royal Navy have lost. Oh, isn't thatinteresting? Yeah. The the the themilitary the Royal Navy and the Ministry of Defense weredoing anything and everything in their power to squirm outof having to change the law. And soevery every challenge we made would be met with someother kind of ridiculous question,or or evasion, or no, or whatever.So we just kept on back and forth answering these questions until,it came to the end of 1999, I think it was September 27th1999, and the European Court of Human Rights ruled on thosefour headline cases with the pressure of the other caseslike mine behind it, and said, it is a violation of thearticle 8, I think it was, in whicheverybody has a right to a private life. And effectively theystated that the ban on homosexuals serving in the militarywas illegal. So the end of 99, the governmentre handed this ruling, and,that meant that in January on January 12, 2000,the law was changed to allow gay people to serve in the military.I would say, Labour likes to say, trumpet, if youlike, that they were the ones that lifted the ban. And I can absolutely attestto the fact that they and the conservatives, and frankly, any other politicalparty that was around at the time, none of them wanted to lift it.And the only reason that ban was lifted was because I and the other peopleput our heads above the parrot parapet and took them to the European CruisingRights. As you say in the notes, it it it took another 23 years from
Joanne Lockwoodhost
that date Yep. To any semblance of an apology,compensation Yes. All the time. So they're kicking that
Emma Rileyguest
one into the long grass as much as they can. Yeah. 23 years.And the only reason they even started to do any of thisstuff is because people got together again. LGBTveterans got together again and started pressurizing them toactually look into the damage that they created. Because what they did waschange to Lauren and go, hooray, Marie. Everybody can serve now. And then again,promptly forgot us having forgotten us the moment they closed the door on ourbacks. And basically, I mean, I kindafrom my own personal experience, I spent, you know, decadesnot talking about it. I didn't talk about it to anybody.And I didn't interact with other human beings in thesame way that you would normally do. I I mean, Igive an example of which is, I joined achoir in in 2002. So it's a women'schoir. And at the moment, at that time, I'm now an openly gay woman.That's all fine. But what what I wasso terrified of was ever being called a a predatory lesbian,or I was so worried about me looking at somebodythe wrong way, quote, unquote, that they would think that I wasfancying them. Or if I I would be terrified that if somebody was upsetand I maybe put my hand on their shoulder to try and say it'sokay, I'd be worried. I wouldn't do that because I'd be terrified that they'd thinkthat I was trying come on to them or something. You know, you as achoir, you have to change in a training room before you go on stage andyou put makeup on blah blah blah. And I would always try and find, like,the corner and, like, look as much as possibleat the wall or the corner or away from everybody, because I wasso worried that somebody would take it the wrong way. So it's justreally debilitating in in that kind of sense. Andthen you don't feel worthy of the workyou're doing. You don't feel worthy of being in the relationship. So you don'tnecessarily treat yourself to the relationships that you really deserve. And it
Emma Rileyguest
and it's only since my early forties,so my 10 years ago that I've started to reallywork through those trust issues. I had counseling,really, for the first time a couple of years back because mymy current my wife has 2 children, and I went in at teenager, which isquite quite a difficult time for them, as well as being difficultjust generally for anybody. And and so there were times inin that journey of of being with them and learning how to be a stepparent, all of those things, that, you know, teenagers challenge things. And andfor various circumstances, there was there was some very challengingbehavior going on a few years back that was in directkind of opposition to my core values of truthand not lying and not bullying, and and so all of allof that got wrapped up in a very difficult situation. And I found I justI had to talk to somebody about it, and I'd never done thatbefore. And that really showed mehow much of my my life had been protecting that innerself. And and, honestly, the only reason that I can reallyspeak with you now is because I metthe person who's now my wife, and I was able to start relaxinginto being vulnerable with somebody for probably the firsttime in my life. I completely credit her withwith bringing me alive, basically, in in in frontof in front of everything. And being allowed tostart speaking of it was wasa a long journey. I I I only started speaking of it reallyproperly as a an actual story, maybe 20,16 or something like that. I got contacted by aprofessor who is writing a book called Goen to Strath's book, who islooking at cases taken to the European Court of Human Rightsby women and men about gender or sexuality.And he'd found my name as part of somebody else'smaterials and desperately wanted me to be part of the book because there were sofew women who took the cases forward. It was mostly men.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I Just listen to what you're saying there about, obviously, you internalized
Emma Rileyguest
all of the hate, all of the, you're not good enough, all that kind of
Joanne Lockwoodhost
things. You're thinking to yourself, I'm the predator. Oh, this must behugely difficult. And I was just saying, and it's not tryingto cost as persons. Men walk into a room and they check women out, butyou walk into a room as a woman, and you're you're worried about checking womenout. And that's kind of that you're feeling that kind of asense of oppression about your identity and everything and Completely. People and
Emma Rileyguest
Yeah. So it's it's kind of the reason, as I said, I sortof started talking that first conversation I had with Paul Johnson and for thebook was deeply distressing to talk itthrough. So I'd never told it as a story from start to finishwith all of the detail that I've now gone into with you. Andyet, that that was that was really powerful forme, because that experience of talking to him, the way thathe explained how important that had been,meant that that allowed me to start talking about it andthinking about it a bit more. The next thing that happened is that my stepdaughterasked me to give a presentation to herschool. So I got asked by the school, asecondary school, to go in and do an assembly, and it was the whole school.And so for the first time in my life, I put a PowerPoint presentation together.I got some photographs together. I thought, right, okay, I've got 20 minutes or25 minutes to tell my story and get something positive out of the end ofit. Because you can't just tell your story and go,well, there's it. Well, in my opinion, I wanted to be ableto try and bring the point that oneperson can actually change things. And yes,I was one person going to the European Court of Human Rights. Well, Iwasn't the only one, but I know that without my case and theother people who independently did it, we just simply wouldn't have got that change.So you do have to have that inner knowledge that one personcan change the world. So I did this talk, which wasterrifying. I've never done speaking before in my life, and I'm standing atthe front of an assembly hall with 11 no, 15 yearolds, blind clear looking back in their hormonal fog.
Emma Rileyguest
And you never know how this thing is going to land, but I found outa few years later. We we, we met a mom of 1 ofthe kids who'd seen that assembly, and, she said,do you know that assembly? My kid came back and said, this was themost amazing talk you'd ever seen. You see, you just don'tknow who you're affecting. I I with mysinging, I now do I've done leadership stuff. So we have a generalconvention once a year. And as part of that, I wason stage doing some emcee work, like, you know, organizing some ofthe some of the some of the weekend. Andat that time, I'd I'd basically said to myself longbefore I'm not going to be in the closet, so I was an outgay woman on stage in a position of responsibility.And about 10 years later, we met a woman who's an operasinger, and her first ever route, if you like,into singing was to sing barbershop, which is the style that we sing. And soshe'd come on to one of the competitions in about 13 or14 years old, questioning her and her sexuality. So shewasn't sure if that was who she was, or she thought she was, but shewas scared of that whole thing in China. So she came along to this convention,saw me, I was on stage, openly gay woman in a position ofresponsibility, respected, and talked toin a normal way. And that was the moment that crystallized for her.Actually, it's going to be okay. I can be gay, and it will beokay, because I can be respected. And I literally would never have known that ifwe hadn't met her 10 years later through my wife's work.But it it is it is really key to be able tobe your authentic, open selfin any speed you possibly can, because you never know who you're going toaffect just by being yourself. You feel this pressure on you
Joanne Lockwoodhost
to be out and open and openly gay woman. You said that use thatphrase a couple of times. Mhmm. You feel there's pressure to to be the thevisible role model or to show that inspiration? I definitely
Emma Rileyguest
don't call it pressure, but I do say that visibilityis critical. You you can't be what you can't see.And actually, one of the things that my company is really good at is havingpeople visible of different kinds. My CFO is agay woman. I'm out there as well, you know, beingopenly gay. And and there are various various other people who are doingthe same kind of work. And even in my, you know,singing organization, I I gave you that example, and I'm on thediversity, equity, and inclusion council for it to help ensure that we move in theright direction as far as gender equality is concerned. Andit just is so important to be able to see a version of yourselfup there to say, actually, it is safe to be who youare. You can be anything. You can be on stage
Emma Rileyguest
and sing and be gay. You know, you canbe CFO and be gay.You you can do talking on thetelevision or the radio and actually be listened toand and understood, and be allowed thatplatform to be able to try and reach people so that people can be connectedand understand that they are good, excellent human beings.I I always say so I volunteer for Diversity Role Models, which isa charity that goes into schools and does workshops to try and try and endLGBT bullying. So building empathy with kids whogenerally don't speak to real gay people until theyleave school. So I go in there and tell my story and kind ofshake up shake them up a bit, because it's a bit dramatic. Butthe long and the short of it is I say, you know, we're all skinbags of blood and bones. There's no real difference between us.You know, how you choose to present your particular skin bagis completely fine. And whether thatperson is religious or not, whether that person is gay or not,transgender or not, one sex, intersex, etcetera,etcetera. It literally doesn't make any difference. You areall the same material underneath. Pride's coming up in June. I mean, this
Joanne Lockwoodhost
episode probably going out after June, but we talk about pride being aprotest as well as a celebration. We're living in aworld in 2024 here where there's this pushback onwokeness. We hear it all the time. It's been weaponized. Mhmm. I I do youfeel that people are kind of saying to you, come on, Emma. Can you justput your gayness away for a bit? Let's talk about.
Emma Rileyguest
Yeah. Yeah. My work colleagues say, you got you've gotten another award or something.Is that for the gay stuff then? Like, it becomes a thing. Well,yes and no. Pride is a protest,as well as a celebration. And the fact that there are still people outthere who are terrified of telling their parents or their colleaguesor, you know, whatever that they're gay, transgender, etcetera,etcetera, is it still needs to behighlighted and these safe spaces still need to becreated. It's why companies in particular, I think, need to make surethat they are on top of things like diversity, equity, inclusion, because somebody needs tobe allowed to be their full authentic self at workin order to release that mental brainspace, even from a simple productivity point of view, to beable to put their whole self into their work. And I havealso said, you know, if you're at work, that may be youronly safe space for various reasons. Maybe at your homespace, there is a religious reason or a cultural reason why beinggay or transgender is not something that you can speak about, but at your workplace,you should be able to be fully engaged and fullythere. There are so many layers to this. There's so many layers. But,yeah, it does need to be visible It needs tobe a protest because you can see how many ofthe laws and gains that we've made are under attack at all times.And it needs to be a celebration because there's nothing more powerfulthan people walking in pride together. Oh, you
Joanne Lockwoodhost
feel that event sense of, I know, your chest puffs out.You feel proud in pride, don't you? But you know that it's theonly space well, it's one of the only spaces you can walk and know you'llyou'll be accepted by everybody around you because we're all there forone purpose. It's Yes. Exactly. Immensely powerful immensely powerful. And Imy wife often tells the story that we went to pride on the Isle ofWight when it was world pride. It was probably 5, 6 years ago. Mhmm. Andit was the first time that she felt comfortable being withme and talk about things in that kind of waythat made her believe that it was normal. We were just anormal couple with Yep. A different a different flavor maybe. Andit was the first time she felt that. And I think you're right. Pride isthere as a safe space to allow people to believe as well. And I thinkthat's incredibly powerful. Yeah. Absolutely. Yougot a a vision? Yeah. What next? Your missionisn't complete on, the service band. You know, we wewant compensation. We want all these other things, but it's Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I
Emma Rileyguest
and as much as anything else, the if I the more I can speakpublicly about this, the more I can try and reach otherveterans who maybe haven't heard about the reparations,who haven't had the opportunity to connect with other veterans becauseit to be able to tell your story to somebody who really understands is avery powerful thing. That happened to me a couple of weeks back. Imet a person whose wife had been thrown out to the RAF in 1984,and she she'd said that go to a couple of friends and so, and theyare legitimately horrified. But we met, and she told her story to me,exactly what she went through, knowsthe the terror and the shame, understands themental cruelty that you go through. I mean, she'd been kepthanging around for 6 months given different dates, and the worst part of itwas they used her as bait to get a corporal.How mentally destructive is that? And there are so many stories of that kind ofthing. But connecting veterans with veterans who have thatcommon military service, but also, crucially, thatcommon experience of having gone through thesedischarges is very crucial. And, frankly,also getting people to apply for compensation, particularly the financialcompensation because we need to pressure the government to actuallycome through with that money. People have been destroyed, livesdestroyed, Careers never happened becausepeople didn't have the mental capacity to go through. So they've had housing difficulties,relationship difficulties, health difficulties. People havedied for this, and the governmentstill The people who've served in in conflicts and wars, who've
Joanne Lockwoodhost
lost their medals and recognition and Yeah. Not justfinance, but stripping them of every if ever achieved. And it's Yeah. The
Emma Rileyguest
humiliation. Yeah. Really humiliation. And it's
Joanne Lockwoodhost
yeah. It's it's definitely as large as you say. And I think we needmore than the apology. We need restitution and reformation about what'shappened. Absolutely. And they are making, finally,
Emma Rileyguest
due to pressure, strides towards that. I think there's a and I'm
Joanne Lockwoodhost
not gonna knock what they're doing, but it's kind of a cop out. When somethinghappens 20 or happens 20 or 30 years earlier, it's easy to be sorry.It it doesn't cost anything to be sorry today. You can you can say whateveryou'd use you like, because it's not you, your apologizingon the sins of the past or the pea your predecessors. It'seasy to throw people under a bus 20 years later. Absolutely.
Emma Rileyguest
I I was one of only 2 veterans looking directly down at RishiSunak when he apologized on behalf of the state to LGBT veterans.And it was a very pretty piece of speech, as was Keir Starmerafterwards. But, actually, the one that hit home was thethen defense secretary Ben Wallace had a space in thepolitical program of that day a little bit later to talk about it. Andhe gave a proper, nuanced, personal,with humility, apology that referenced the fact thathe was an officer at the time, and he was part of the problem. Andhaving met gay people like MP Crispin Blunt later,he finally understood the real impact of what he'd beenparty to at the time. And so hiscontrition had far more emotion behind itthan ever did the 2 heads of parties.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. Emma, wow. Thank you.I really value your candor and openness in telling yourstory here today. So, yeah, absolutely absolutely powerful. Howcan we get a hold of you? You can find me on LinkedIn. I have
Emma Rileyguest
a website, emiraldi.uk. Please do contact me through either ofthose things. And, yeah, I do have a full time job,but I do work as much as I can to try and help around that,to get the message out there and try and help help peopleunderstand this history a little bit more.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Thank you. As we bring this conversationto a close, I want to express my deepest gratitudeto you, our listener, for lending your ear andheart to the cause of inclusion. Today'sdiscussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to InclusionBites and become part of our ever growing community,driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, andcolleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter.Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'mall ears. Reach out tojo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk,and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this
Joanne Lockwoodhost
is Joanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to returnwith more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire,and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive worldone episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.
In this compelling episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood speaks with Emma Riley about the stark realities and profound challenges of LGBTQ+ rights within the military. Emma shares her harrowing journey from being ousted from the Royal Navy due to her sexuality to becoming a pivotal activist for change. They discuss the invasive and demeaning treatments she endured, the subsequent legal battles, and her victory at the European Court of Human Rights, which ultimately led to a transformative shift in military policies. Joanne adds depth to the conversation with her perspectives on the broader implications of such discrimination.
Emma, now a programme governance and operation manager and an active advocate for LGBTQ+ rights, recounts her story with remarkable resilience. Her activism is not limited to her legal victories; she is also deeply involved with Diversity Role Models, a charity aimed at eradicating LGBT bullying in educational settings. By sharing her experiences, Emma aims to inspire others to advocate for equity and to support those who feel marginalized in various spheres of life, especially in armed forces and corporate environments.
The dialogue also touches on the significance of Pride events as both a celebration and a protest, mirroring Emma's dual role as a celebrant of diversity and a challenger of injustices. Her story sheds light on not only the struggles but also the triumphs that can be achieved through persistence and courage.
Listeners are taken through a journey of emotional lows and highs, as Emma details her transformation from a silenced servicewoman to a vocal advocate. Joanne's insights offer further understanding of how these experiences relate to broader societal changes.
The episode wraps up by reaffirming the importance of fighting for what is right and encouraging societal shifts towards acceptance and justice. This narrative not only offers solace to those with similar experiences but also serves as a call to action for allies to support necessary changes in legislation, military practices, and social norms. An urgent reminder that individual stories can catalyse collective progress, this episode is a must-listen for anyone committed to fostering a more inclusive world.
The views and opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of Inclusion Bites, SEE Change Happen Ltd or Joanne Lockwood. This episode is shared for general interest and discussion; we accept no responsibility for the accuracy or completeness of any statements made.
