The Role of Governance in Effective ERG Leadership
Alyssa Dver explores the empowering journey of ageing, the importance of nurturing valuable relationships, and the enriching experience of diverse perspectives while advocating for inclusive and psychologically safe work environments.
Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuaryfor bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood,your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart ofinclusion, belonging, and societal transformation.Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world whereeveryone not only belongs but thrives? You'renot alone. Join me as we uncover theunseen, challenge the status quo, and sharestories that resonate deep within. Ready to divein. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding downafter a long day, let's connect, reflect, andinspire action together. Don't forget, youcan be part of the conversation too. Reach out tojo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.ukto share your insights or to join me on the show.So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time toignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.Today is episode 142with the title, Empowering Belonging. And Ihave the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Alisa de Vere.Alisa is a confidence expert, a leader
Joanne Lockwoodhost
of the ERG Alliance that equips organisations withthe tools and brain science to create sustainable,inclusive, and impactful employee resource group. AndI asked Alyssa to describe a superpower. She said that it is helpingpeople feel confident and valued by creating spaceswhere everyone belongs. Hello, Alissa. Welcome to theshow. Jo, I'm so excited to be here. I can't imagine a more
Alyssa Dverguest
perfect conversation for today. No.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And we met, I suppose, coming up from a month ago. It was actually,to put a date stamp on it, it was the day after the,US presidential elections where the news of the result was justfiltering through. Wasn't it? It was. And I was so glad to be with you
Alyssa Dverguest
and not in Boston where I am right now because I tell you thatwas a tough day. Yeah. So
Joanne Lockwoodhost
we were at a, the ERG Alliance eventin London, weren't we, on that day? That's right. In Waterloo, South Southwark.
Alyssa Dverguest
Yeah. It was it was really nice to be, and and, you know, it'sinteresting too, of course, for me being kind of the representative American in theroom. You know, everyone was like, why? And, I still don't havethose answers. No. And you put a brave face on
Joanne Lockwoodhost
it, if I remember rightly. Yeah. We could everyone could tell that there wasa a lot of confusion and pain behind the eyes. Oh,
Alyssa Dverguest
yeah. Well, I, you know, I guess that's good becauseI don't wanna fake anybody ever. I willsay this, you know, in processing it now for several weeks,there is a lot of pain still. And every day, the newsis, you know, almost more unbelievable with some of the appointeesand some of the ramifications and things that are happening. Butit's also rallied maybe an energy ora a latent complacency.Right? I think that we we often take a lot forgranted, whether it's women's rights or any kind of rights, civilrights. And those are things that we have to continue to putour focus on. So for what it's worth, itbites. But at the same time, we are gonna bite backin a way that is productive, smart, and, sustainable. Sowe have a lot of work to do. I think a lot of people arerealizing that. They're taking maybe the rest of the year to kind of re energizeand at the same time find a new approach. Yeah. It's
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I find that the whole world of politics is it'svery divisive, isn't it? I mean, we're gonna be talking around ERGsand staff networks and empowering people and creating belonging,which is an inclusive approach. Whereas politicsis you're in, you're out. You're withus, you're against us. And and there's no room for the for the losersalmost, is there? Yeah. Well, think about
Alyssa Dverguest
elementary, middle school, high school. I mean, why is it any different? You know,power, people who wanna be popular, who wanna have power inthat. The only way theyI should say the only way. The most common way, of course, is tomake themselves either bullies or make the and or make therest of the population feel less confident. Andso, unfortunately, that that's kind of the definitionof divisiveness. Right? Somebody's a winner, somebody's a loser.And it's just sad. It's a human condition that unfortunatelytranscends ethnicity, culture, country.Right? And you look at all over the world. Or you end up in a
Joanne Lockwoodhost
a democracy that is constrained. Someone like,Switzerland, for example, where it's a consensusvoting all the time and it's very hard to make change, which creates a verystable political government, but you don't evolve asa country or evolve as a society because you can never getconsensus. That's the other challenge, isn't it? Yeah.
Alyssa Dverguest
Well, you can never get consensus. Let's think about that for a second, though. Becauseif we're really inclusive, we're inviting difference.We embrace and celebrate differences. Right? So consensusmay not be something that is attainable. And maybe that's okay. I mean, we're gettingvery ideological here. But, the realityis this, is if you really have all those beautiful different voices at atable and you want them to agree,that's kind of by definition not going to work. It shouldn'twork. Right? But if we can come to a placewhere and, you know, I'm not I don't love the word compromise.It kind of implies that we're all not getting what we want.But if we can come to a place of compromise where everyone goes, you know,that'll work for me enough. And that's one of my favorite words isenough. Because I don't think we use enough enough. But, like, instead ofhaving to be totally, you know, if my list has10 requirements, but I get 8 or 7 of themfulfilled, and you get 8 or 7 of yours fulfilled, that's enough.So consensus may not be the rightchoice there. Oh, I I hear what you're saying about the word consensus. I I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
always try and reframe it so that I'm not seeing it asI've given way or I've had to compromise. Iwanna see compromises. Actually, I'm satisfied thatwe've both given ground. We've both met in the middle.
Alyssa Dverguest
Right. We both acknowledged each other's feelings, our needs.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And when we sat down and talked about something, I go, actually, you'reright. We need a bit of that as well. And so we're we're not givingground. We're we're we're sharing ground and understanding eachother's needs. I think that's that's how I would frame compromise. I agree. 100%.
Alyssa Dverguest
100%. Wouldn't it be a better world?It would be. Right? You know, I don't wanna label anything ortry to avoid labels. But, you know, this thishistorically dictatorial stanceof, you know, it's mine, and I has to be myway or the like, it's it's just we gotta dosomething about that. And and at the same time, we don't have toimpose. Right? Like, just because we choose whatever it mightbe, a lifestyle or a preference, doesn'tmean you have to. Right? And I think I thinkthere is this, I don't know. I don't evenknow the words to how I am, like, so so beyond trying toexplain things, as I said. But I think there is this assumption that weall have to, like you said, consensus, we all have to agree. We don't haveto agree. And that's okay. Yeah. No. I I agree we
Joanne Lockwoodhost
don't have to agree. And I think it's I I always try and come fromthe angle that if I can understand why you believe something, I don'tactually have to believe the same thing as long as I can understand and relateto your lived experience and the fact that you'restraight or you're black or you have a disability, whatever it maybe, I can't walk in your shoes, but, and I can't necessarilyhave empathy for what you go through, but I can relate toyour stories, to your lived experience, and I can go, actually, I've never seen itthrough that those eyes before and that that lens before. But now you say that,I I really do understand why it's important to you.It will never be important to me, but I can understand now it's important foryou, it's important to me as well, sort of thing. Just trying to find thatmiddle ground, isn't it? Yeah. Well, yes. And
Alyssa Dverguest
and I think that oftentimes people makevery poor assumptions. Right? We know assumptions are never good, butthey can be very dangerous. And and what I mean by that isyou don't know what somebody's been through. You have noidea. You, you know, you're talking to somebody at any givenmoment and you don't know what they just came out of or have lived throughin the past. And so their perspective is gonna bedifferent than yours. But it doesn't mean it's better, wrong, right. It's justdifferent. At the same time, isn'tthat a beautiful thing? We get all thisdifferent views of things, whether it's, you know,for innovation reasons or just to enrich ourintellectual appreciation of all of it. But I don'tthink everyone I know I'm not, you know, clearly that's not a sharedviewpoint. You know,I I don't know how or why I have that, to be honestwith you. I have a lot of my own lived experiences that makeme that way. But it's there's an ironyhere, . Because I want people to be moreaccepting because I'm more accepting. Right? SoI try and also understand, and I use brainscience as my tool to understand whydoes somebody feel so bigoted? Or why do they feelso assumptive? What like, what is behind thatso that I can be a little bit moreprepared and and maybe I don't want to say supportive. That's not the rightword either. But so so thatI can create a a common ground. Do you have any theories
Joanne Lockwoodhost
with your brain science and your your experience as towhy, yeah, as you say, I, we,many people we know, want to see betterment. We want tofeel we want people to succeed. We want people to genuinely feelsafe, secure, have opportunities.And we believe we're the best in people, but there are other people who havea different view where they're not, well, whether it'sselfish or self centred or self effacing, Beginswith the word self. They're not thinking in those ways. So whatis the difference? And without going into personality disorders, narcissistictenders, what word should we use? Can we? Can we,
Alyssa Dverguest
please? Well, alright. We'll we'll make it veryI don't want to say simple. It's not simple, but we'll make it, somewhat easyto digest. You know, there's two reasons. Well, first of all, no baby isborn selfish. Right? Like you don't come out and you're like, I'mgonna be a jerk when I grow up. Like, you know. You don't it's alearned behavior, right? So they learn it from somewhere, some people,some situations. And in many cases,it may be a defensive mechanism from some trauma orfrom other things too, of course. Right? Soyou can't always blame the people or the situation,but you can at least explain that there's a reason why that person is feelingthe way they are. Now, reality overall is that ourbrains, as evolved as they are, they're still prettycave like, right? In that we respond to fear. That isour immediate, you know, I'm about to be hurt.And hurt, not just physically hurt, but emotionally hurt. Like, someone's notgonna like me. Somebody's gonna think I'm a loser.And in that moment of what is usually subconscious,because we don't stop and say, Oh, I'm feeling this way. It'sa reaction. And the reaction goes right into our brain stem, whichis the cave person part of our brain. Right? That's the oldestpart. It's the part of the brain that keeps usin survival mode. And survival mode isinteresting because survival mode has 2 kind ofextremes. 1 is very aggressive behavior, defensiveaggressive. It could be somebodylike, Oh, I didn't say that. Or it could be, you know, You.You're the problem. Those kinds of aggressive behaviors.But it could also be the other extreme, which is shy hunkeringdown, trying to disappear. You know, the people who don't want to say anything,maybe even passive aggressive, you could put in that bucket. Butpeople who are quiet, who are introverted in a way that yougo, you know, say something. Andthat's survival mode, right? They're scared. And thatfear, that trigger of whatever it is. And I mean,it's kind of almost farcical insome ways, right? I watched our political news. We started on thatfoot. And I'm like, that guy that guy's scared,right? He's scared. He's scared of losing face. He's scared of something. Andso, what do they do? They get overly aggressive. They becomepassive puppets, right? And that's the heart of it.I mean, it's what it's the heart of it. It's the head of it, right?It's that's what it's all about. So, when we don't belong,when we're not included, we go into thatsurvival mode. And if we can make people orhelp people feel more belonged, more included,maybe we wouldn't have so many damn dictators all over the world.And I did stress that. Dictators. Sorry.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Dictator. Yes. I yeah. There was a an enunciation ofthat word, wasn't there? It's heavily loaded towards the first syllable.
Alyssa Dverguest
Well and let me be clear. It is not itis not, you know, male or and womenhave this these issues too. And more and more, I think, youknow, for lots of social reasons, women areacting equally defensive andaggressive as well as shy. You know, we we do see those polars all overthe place. I've lived 2 lives as as you're aware,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
and I've noticed a complete difference in the way I view theworld, the way I show up, the way I interact.And I I could liken it to finding a religion or finding myepiphany or whatever it was whatever it may be. And whyI look back on that that time in my life is realising that once you'vetold that biggest secret, that biggest thing inside you, onceyou've effectively opened your kimono to theworld and said this is who I am underneath, There's not alot left to hide and you've also realised that fear, allthis apprehension, the things that are holding you back arejust so what? No big deal, you can get over it. Ithink you're right in saying that some people have thisdefensiveness, insecurity, the little child insidethem that doesn't want to be found out, doesn'twant to be, you know, wants to be in with a big crowd, you know,they're always chasing this and they surround themselves with people who say yes allthe time or amplify their their beliefs. Whereas I Ifind it much much more interesting now to to exist in, Isay, chaos. We live in a world where I don't have to have all theanswers, and I'm really, really comfortable with that these days. I love
Alyssa Dverguest
how you you said that. Yes. A 100%. But you saidsome people. I think everyone does. And it'sfew that and I say everyone, including you and I,that there's probably moments you still you regress a little. Imean, I do too. Now what we know from our research at the Instituteis that by the time we're 60 years old, we're finallycomfortable in our own skin and as a population. Right? You know, why isthat? Because by the time you're 60, you finally realize all that minutia that youmentioned, all those things that just don't matter. Like, I'm notchanging now. Like, this is who I am. Get over it. Right? Butthere are going to be moments, I don't care how confident someone outthere thinks they are. In fact, it takes confidenceto realize you're not confident. Right? And when youfinally come to that conclusion that, you know what? I'm not perfect. I'm not rightall the time. And, you know, I'm human. If ifthat's the way it is. And when you accept that really wholly,it is liberating. You're absolutely right. Oh, yeah. I just sort of
Joanne Lockwoodhost
phew in my my brow here, you know, you have to start to get youryour shit together. If you're like, well, I'm 30 60. I'm 60 in 7 weeks'time. So I'm kind of glad that I've kind of arrived at thatplateau just at the I mean, I think whatwould have happened if I got to this point and I locked in my personalityat 60. It was the other one. I think, wow, at leastI'm locking in the right personality at 60 and thinking I've got going together. But
Alyssa Dverguest
Well, thank you too for doing it because we love who youare. Yeah, I think I think my fifties have
Joanne Lockwoodhost
been in training for my sixties. You know, I think when you get to thispoint in your life, approaching 60, you're right. You don't have to beanything anymore. All of those, Isuppose again, human instinct when you were young, you're trying to nestbuild, you're trying to acquire stuff, you're trying to feather everythingand making sure that you have an environment where your children can grow up safely.You can then provide for them. All this kind of stuff that we do isvery primeval. And we get to, I suppose, our age. Sorry.I wasn't trying to say that you're our age. Our age. No. We're we're
Alyssa Dverguest
yes. 60 scissors. Sis, sis, scissors.Sixty sisters. I can't even say it. We don't need that
Joanne Lockwoodhost
baggage anymore. You know, we can shed that baggage. And I was talking to someoneyesterday about the difference between baggage and luggage. Baggage is stuff youcarry around with you, that you collect over the years. Luggage is the stuffwhere you sort your baggage out and say, this is all I now needto have a great life from here on in. So this is a sheddingof the baggage and just picking up the luggage now. Yeah. So I'll give
Alyssa Dverguest
you another data point that reinforces exactly what you justsaid. You know, we we've done a lot of research through the institute over theyears, the last decade plus. And some of these datapoints, when you first collect them, you're like, really? And then you start to, like,ask people, and you'll it's just completely validated. And one ofthem was, you know, when you're in your twenties, your thirties, you have abazillion friends typically. Like, you look atwedding pictures and there's, like, how many grooms men and groovesat bridesmaids. Right? And then you get into your later yearsand the average number , I'm gonna ask you to guess. What's the average numberof people you'd really consider a good friend? Really honest,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I could survive just my wife and Ias as the core must haves,and our children, and my parents, maybe. I don't I don't meanmaybe in a nasty way. I'm just saying that if it came down to itand I had to lock the door and not let anybody in, my wife andI would be very happy together. But I suppose outside of that, there were 5people maybe. Maybe. 2. 2 was
Alyssa Dverguest
the statistical audit appointment. Tongue tied today. 2.And part of that is letting go of the baggage. Becausethere's a lot of people that we collect over the years that are out ofconvenience. You know, people that are there during your kids' youngyears where you needed to carpool and you needed some backup or whatever.Friends that were just fun to go out drinking buddies. You know, whatever it was.And you get older and you're like, you know, I have so little time. Andit's not because I'm planning to die anytime soon. It's just that a day is24 hours and I gotta sleep at least 8 of them. Right? So,like, with the time I have, I wanna be really mindful of the people thatmatter to me. And so you'd really do that, what I call pruningof your relationships. And subsequently, you get rid of thebaggage. And you're like, you know what? I don't have time for that person andtheir drama. I don't have time for this person who's only asking mefor stuff all the time. So you do go through some of that inyour fifties. And you end up in your 60s. And you're kind of like, I'mlighter. I don't need any more stuff. I don't need more people. I don't needany more anything. I just want to live in my own skinand respect my values, my needs, and my wants. And the people thatI love in the same vein. Yeah. I've I've moved into I've I've talked to
Joanne Lockwoodhost
other people, a sufficiency phase of my life. SoI've gone away from acquisition and assets andgluttony into a sufficiency. So what you're saying there is is ismirroring that that feeling. I'm shedding thegluttony of relationships to the simplicity ofto sufficient relationships that feed myneeds. We're symbiotic in our needs with each other ratherthan it being, as you said, unbalanced. You're a taker. I'malways a giver with you. We don't need that, do we? Yeah. And, you know,
Alyssa Dverguest
I think there's a a beautiful I don'tknow. Justification, I guess, I would call it where you say I say to myselfregularly, if I waste time, for example, withthat person and all their nonsense,it's less time I can give less energy, lessfocus to the people or the person that really needs menow. Right? And so, you get judicious.You get judicious with what you do, where you go,what you join, what you sign up for, and who you hang out with.Because you recognize we have limited asset. Andyou know, I don't regret any of the past. I think it's all part ofour, you know, own life experience. But at the sametime, you know, I think a lot of people hold on to relationships.They hold on to things wellpast their due and and subsequently do regret that. So the sooner youcan prune, the better. Software subscriptions, you need to not
Joanne Lockwoodhost
renew them. Exactly.That's that's the worst thing about Black Friday andThanksgiving and Cyber Monday is all my AppSumo and all thoseother software deals I've got all renew at this time of year. So it'sgot 200 dollars for this, $50 for that, $100 for this, youthink? Blimey. So so I started for all this last year and somemore. I'm sorry. Well, needless to say, there's an app for that.
Alyssa Dverguest
I can't remember the name, but you There's probably and an app to unsubscribe youfrom all of that. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. For sure. But you're
Joanne Lockwoodhost
right. We need to unsubscribe from our friends that aren't bringing us value.They're not adding they're decrementing rather than incrementingour life. And And family too. I'm sorry to, like, pick
Alyssa Dverguest
up your friends. But, you know, there's family members that are also life suckers. Andso and and, you know, yeah, you might have to see them at aholiday, but it doesn't mean you have to jump, you know, everytime they say I need something. That's a hard one becauseyou're like, oh, I feel indebted to family. You're born with family. You haveno choice on that one. But you can still minimize the,the drain. As you're talking there, and I'm my brain's flying around in the
Joanne Lockwoodhost
background thinking this is a very privileged conversation to havethe privilege of a supporting environment ofa a status of wealth and to be able to make these life choices.Not everybody has this opportunity to pick and choose their theirfriends. Some people are, are maybe struggling.That that happens in organizations as well, doesn't it? It's always aif you're living a working in a world where you're not being respected,it's very easy for some and some, well, if you don't like it, leave andgo somewhere else. But that's also a very privileged thing to say, isn't it? Everyonehas that ability to up up sticks and go. Yeah.
Alyssa Dverguest
Absolutely. Absolutely.It's unfortunately it's it's kinda like family in some ways, really.You end up in an organization. Now maybe you chose that job originally,but, again, like you're suggesting, maybe you had to for avariety of reasons. And then all of a sudden, you're surrounded by all these peoplewho may or may not get you, may not want to get you, and atthe same time may not be anything like you. So that canbe extraordinarily traumatic.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So we hear sequential tales of,young young women who are probably now middle aged women, older womenwho have put up with poor behaviorbecause at the early phase of their career, that was the only way they perceivedthey could get on. And we're just seeing stuff in the UK press at themoment around TV presenters who have been actinginappropriately for many, many decades and never been calledout, or if they were called out, they were never listened to and neverrespected. So the kind of Me Too, the other things that are going on,it's not easy to sort of to stand your ground,because principals don't pay the rent, do they,sometimes? Yes. Very
Alyssa Dverguest
profoundly put. It is hard.It you know, I do the employee resource group employee networks, and thatwas one reason I felt really a need.I remember, you know, I had already started the American Confidence Institute, and thestory behind that is kind of interesting because it goes back to a neurologicalcrisis that I was dealing with with my son. So I had really goodmotivation motivation. I it was likeurgency to get, my hands around what was going onwith human behavior and brains for that reason.But one of the things I realized was that there were so many peoplein the workplace that were in that position where they just didn'tfeel like they belong. They weren't included. And so I was like, well, what canI do? And lo and behold, started getting a lot of calls from ERGsto present the confidence work. And when I started asking questions,it was kind of hilarious because the talentpeople, you know, HR and talent management would say to me,these groups, they're just for wine and cheese and, you know, food, like, and fun.And I was like, but they don't have to be. They're really good constructs. Andif we just got organized. And then I was like, we? Who's thewe? There was no we. And the we became mebecause I was like, I don't know. I can at least organize
Alyssa Dverguest
people. And so, you know,fast forward, that was in 2019 that we actually said, Okay,we're going to do this ERG thing. And then George Floyd and COVID andall kinds of other contributors.And despite the horrific news thatcontinues to pour out through the US and other countries aboutgetting rid of the D, getting rid of the I, everything isdisgusting. Theconstructs are still, maybe even more so,important. You know, one of the things that I'vesaid a long time is it was a bummer that ERGs, employee networks, I'lluse those interchangeably today, but that they gotkind of, latched on to diversity because Ithink that the core of those groups, ithas to do with what's important to you nomatter what that intersectionality is.If you want to be part of an LGBT group, great. But maybe youwant to be part of the linen arts group because that brings you joy andpleasure and connection. And I, you know, I think weneed to embrace this as a moment of, of expressing who weare in all different ways and and and enjoying the company of otherswho do too. I kinda like actually thefact that it's now pivoting into employee experience becauseif we can find people who we maybe there's nobodyelse that's blocking your organization and you haveto want to stay at that organization for whatever reasons.But maybe you can connect with somebody who has a different aspect that you stillreally value. And I think that that opens up a whole new door ofopportunity for us to bring inclusion and belonging. And that maybe not so much a silver lining, but a niceevolution of this whole construct. I'm a big
Joanne Lockwoodhost
fan of what you're saying here. I mean, I I talk about positive people experiences,and that's the fundamental. We get caught up in theseacronyms, don't we? DEI, EDI. We put a J for justice inthere. We put a this in there. And it confuses thelayperson with all these buzzwords. And what we're really trying to say is we wantwell-being. We want psychological safety. We want environments where people canthrive, they feel safe, they can they can grow, they can develop,they can be nurtured. That's all we're talking about and that's that's allpeople rather than just some people. And if that's what we're tryingto do with DEI, EDI, is try and create positiveenvironments where people thrive and feel that sense of belonging and purpose.And it's got hijacked into, as you say, food and flagsand fun and and which which are great because everyone loves a good party, everyoneloves a good it brings people together, but it's I often think thatsome it gets lost in, I I call it, bean counting. Have I got it'slike Noah's Ark. Have I got one of those, 2 of those, 5 of these?Where is everybody? If we're not careful, what we end up doing is we're focusingon the numbers rather than the outcomes, which is how do people feel?
Alyssa Dverguest
That's right. That's right. Now, I'm I'm gonna take us a littlebit outside of that box for a second if you'll allow me.My husband is a 5th grade teacher here in the US, and he works ina school that is bilingual,largely Brazilian Portuguese is thesecond language. A lot of these children have beenthrough extraordinary trauma. And I keep using that phrase,extraordinary trauma, because I think there's everyday traumas that we all live through.But these are extraordinary, you know, they've left homessometimes with a single parent, sometimes had, youknow, all kinds of voyage journeys and so forth.And oftentimes are still in a traumatic environment where maybethey're one of 10 people in a very, very smallapartment. Maybe there's abuse and drugs. There's all kinds of things thathappen. Needless to say, he teaches a course forother teachers on how to handle trauma. And, you know, I think oneof the key messages is you're never going to understand, nor shouldyou, nor, you know, it's almost awaste of time in many cases to try and really understand the trauma. Butthere are ways we can support that child in learningbetter, knowing that they've been through trauma. Right? And II use that you know, I'm very inspired by all that because I thinkwhat a lot of managers will never understandis if you really want people tohave the best performance they can be. Right? Like, as a manager, that's yourjob is like, how do I help you perform better? That that's it. Right? Howdo I make you, the best contributor you canbe? I don't have to understand yourexperience, but I have to at least respect it. And I have toask good enough questions to to make youpsychologically safe, to allow you to thrive in a way that doesn'tthreaten mylimitations. Right? And I think that's where the rubber hits theroad is managers feel like, you know, they are, you know, you got toget the best out of your people. You got to like, you know, bring yourwhole self to work. Well, really? Really?Come on. Who are you joking? I can't bring my whole self to work ifyou're not even letting me open my mouth in a meeting,right? Or you're not even asking me what I needin this body that I have that's very different than yours. And Ithink there's a vulnerability there that we just we're never gonna I shouldn'tsay never. It's gonna be hard to train some of these people torelax a little bit. Yeah, I'm just picking out
Joanne Lockwoodhost
some core thinking out of what you're just saying, and I I think I'mgonna crystallize it as as listening tounderstand. Not listening to reply, but listening to trulyunderstand. I think what I find is the traditionalI say traditional, the old school command and control leadership style is I'mright. I know the plan. We're gonna do it my way.And if you're not doing it my way, I'm gonna manage you until you door or you're out. Whereas the what we're trying to do now isis develop teams of artisans, people who arecreative, people who are free thinking, people who bring that empowermentand those ideas sharing into the workplace. And the leaders' role is different now.It's about creating space and holding space for peopleto explore ideas and come tothis consensus or this compromise, whatever we want to call it, of ofof a direction rather than saying, I've got all the ideas, this is what we'regoing to do. It's what do we think? How are we gonna do this? I
Alyssa Dverguest
think we could even apply that comment to, again, thepolitics. Right? The difference between beingled versusempowered. Right? Andleaders fear empowering people because itmeans that they're gonna lose their own power, which in truth is just theopposite. You know? The old adage of hirepeople that are smarter than you. Like, it takes a really confident personto be like, hey. You know, this is an area that I know we needto do, and I'm not the expert, but you are. Right?So, yes, when you allow people, empowerpeople to be in the words they use innovative, I'll evensay entrepreneurial. Right?And I I I would go so far to say that most people who doleave a corporate world, myself included, I was a corporate,executive for 25, 30 years. And I I waslike, I I can't deal with these constraints. My brain is toocreative. I wanna do bigger or better things, and I can't do it inthis environment. But I think a lot of people leave because ofthat reason. And yet, the talent, theinnovation, the creativity that comes from allowing people to do that.Yeah. That's why companies take so long to move companies.Organizations would be government and nonprofit. You you know, any kind of organization.Because the management is, assuming that theyneed to lead and not empower. I I walked
Joanne Lockwoodhost
out of corporate banking life in thetwilight of the nineties, 1998. It was just prior to year2000. There was a lot of memos going aroundtelling us about our bonuses that were on the on the line ifyear 2000 went went wrong. Andjust the tone of voice in these letters, the tone of voice in the communication.I just thought, hang on a minute. I don't need this.You're you're treating me as as a 2 year old. You're paying me a lotof money, and you're talking me like I'm a 2 year old.No. I'm not having it. And I walked into HR and I said, no. I'mout. They looked at me and say, what, what, what, you can't do that?I said, well, you changed the rules, not me. You know, you decided that you'regoing to rearrange the department. You're going to do this, you're going to do that.That's not the job I wanted. That's not the job I applied for. That's notthe job you offered me. You just think I'm going to be your pawn. Idecided at that point there I wasn't fit for corporate life. I wasn't prepared tobe the the pawn on the on the board and,to be, ruled by the back by the back row. So,yeah, it was but I didn't know what being self employed truly meant. I justknew that I could get up tomorrow and figure stuff out. Figure it out.
Alyssa Dverguest
Figure it out. And it is, again, a privileged position as you saidearlier, right, to be able to do that, and some people can't.So the people that can't or won't and could be can'tfinancially, but it could be can't because, emotionally, they're just not there. They don't havethe the the wherewithal. A thousand reasons, right,why they can't. At least, if there's an environmentwhere they can commiserate with other people who are in the same boat, thathelps. At least if they can feel like I'm not the only onewho sees the ridiculousness of the situation or the injustice of thesituation, that helps. So,you know, I I do use that word commiseratea lot in the ERG language because I think there is anempowerment that comes. It's not whining. It's validating.It's saying, you know, I see this is wrong.And yet other people are saying, Yeah, we see it wrongtoo. So maybe they'll get up and do something to right it. But ifnothing else, they don't feel like an outsider saying,you know, the emperor has no clothes. So,you know, I think that there is a real power in that comingtogether, in that ability to, again, share. Even ifit's not an ethnicity share, it's not agender share. It's not it's not that. It's just we see that this iswe see it from the same side of things, and apparently, the rest of theorganization doesn't. You don't feel so lonely in that.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
ERG staff networks, however you wanna describe them, they go throughan evolutionary phase, both anorganization, being from a start up tomaturing, and the ERG will will matchthe maturity model, if you like, with the organisation as well. So at theearly stages, it's a bit probably less less formal. Andeventually, you're working with a multinational conglomeratewith thousands and thousands of staff all over the world, then the ERG modelbecomes multi territory, multi timezone, and it has to have some structures.Where do organizations make mistakes in the early days when they're startingERGs? What's their what's their biggest misstep, if you like?
Alyssa Dverguest
Well, I'm gonna start with there's nomaturity model. I think it's misled for people to thinkthat there's a maturity model. We used to have an assessment ourselves forprogression and this and the other. And the reality is this that the organizationmay have a programmatic maturity. You know, they finallyget a policy document. They probably they finallyget the rules and processes kind of in a place. Maybe they have asystem to help manage it, whatever. Groupitself ebbs and flows. And it ebbs andflows with the leadership of the group,the experience and the zeal of those leaders themselves which come and go.2 years is an average tenure, but when I say average,most leaders don't even last that long. So, there's a lot of newpeople that come and go, and they may or may not have experience leading agroup at all. So, the group itself, there may be new groupsthat pop up all the time. And we get inquiriesat ELA all the time saying, oh, yesterday somebody emailedus. You ever heard of Slovenia Slovenian group,Slovenic group, I guess? And we'd like to know ifthere anybody else has one of those on the those happen. Sothe groups themselves will ebb and flow. And even if it'sa, you know, big group that's been around for a long time, there's areflection of the leadership. There's a reflection of the overall leadership of the organization.Of course, there's an ebb and flow of the political environment. I mean, there's alot of things that can, in fact, impact the status ofthat group. So I think number one mistakeis don't assume anything. Like, always go back to some of the fundamentalsof, you know, make sure that it's clear who that group isserving specifically and why. And when I saygo back, review those documents. Some people have charter missions. Wecharter and mission statements. We we have something a little bit more
Alyssa Dverguest
granular to really kind of call out some of the things that often get lostin those mission statements. Because who are you serving?You know, if you're serving women, are you serving any woman?Anyone who identifies as a woman? Women in general, whatabout men who want to support women better? Those are your allies.Are you supporting them? If so, okay. But defineit. Right? And why? Be really clear. Why does this groupneed to exist? And what happens if the group goes away?So those fundamentals are really important. And and in lightof those, when you're clear about who that groupis for, the structure of the group, the processes of the group, the roles ofthe different not just in the leadership chain, but the executivesponsors, the role of the allies. When you have those fundamentalsupdated regularly, then everything else gets easier.I'm not going to say easy, but easier. So, when you make decisionsabout how do we inform and who do we inform and how frequentlyand what channels, what programs do we do, what gets funded, whatdoesn't get funded, Who's allowed to come to what?What safe spaces versus brief spaces are we gonna create?Those things get clearer. Are we gonna run thingsremotely? So people who are out in the fields whoare maybe on a factory floor or frontline, are theygonna be easilyparticipating? You know, those things get a lot clearer. So Ithink though that's the biggest mistake is people don't pay attention. I call themthe fundamentals. It's kinda like, you know, the the definitionalbuilding blocks that make that group who they are. I see a lot of debates
Joanne Lockwoodhost
on, LinkedIn around who who owns theERG. You know? And, is it employee led,employee owned, or is it really the company? Who is themaster? Who who is the who drives the agenda?And I see people criticising otherpeople for doing unpaidvoluntary work to support the company, and the company shouldreally be funding the ERG and giving it part of their job and giving themtime off. And people find they're doing it as a hobby or aside side hustle. I don't really try and sortthat that that, that tension out. I appreciate there'sno right or wrong way. It's whatever works for you.But how how can we rationalize the,the the yin and the yang of that? I don't know
Alyssa Dverguest
if it's yin and yang. I think they're a little bit more confrontational thanthat. No. There's there's a couple points that youjust put into that question. You know, all these organizationsthat wanna slap a b in the front of the word. Right? Business resource groupor business employee resource group. You know? That's part of that wholedebacle of really who owns the group. Now I'm gonna saysomething here that may not resonate well with a lot of people. But look,
Alyssa Dverguest
if you're taking money from the business, I'm sorry to say it's likeyour board of it's your board of advisors or whoever. Like, thebusiness owns that. But ifthe business is smart, if the business is doing this for the rightreasons, it is funding it like an investor and trustingthat the leaders of that group are not onlygonna make good decisions, but take the time to justify thosedecisions back to the board. So if I'm going to give youx number of pounds or dollars or euros, whatever it mightbe, that you come back and say, Here are the things that I want todo with that money. And subsequently, this is the outcome.Now, here's where the ERGsand the whole world is changing a lot. And you were in the London event.You know that my trends report for 2025 is all about the numbers.Right? We gotta get better with the numbers. And the numbers have tobe speaking to the business people. So, when we say that,you know, it helps people feel included and belonging, that means nothingto a CFO. What means to a CFO is if youdon't do this, this is how many people are gonna leave next year. Ifyou don't do this, this is what the impact on profitability and productivity is gonnabe with some kind of quantitative number. Right? Andso, that has been a mistake sincethe 1960s. Right? The ERGs have been there, but there never really beenthis rally cry of we've got to show the quantitative outcometo the business because the businesses are funding this.So, one woman's opinionis the groups are employeerun, but they are businessfunded and assisted. This whole thing about compensatingthe leaders, which you also kind of tucked inthere. This has been a very heated debatesince the get go. We in many of ourELA events, our conferences. We've we've literally haddifferent panelists argue this. The audience gets very heated aboutit. And again, this is one woman's opinion. If you step up to bean ERG leader, you're giving yourself a really beautifulopportunity to practiceleadership skills, to learn from other people, to have access topeople and resources that you'll never get in your day job, in your higher job,as I like to prefer to call it. So it's anopportunity. It's like taking, you know,one of those, you know, somebody says, would you like to be in the managementtrack? Yes. It doesn't always pan out that way for lots of reasons.But if you take that approach and proactively say, this is what I wantto learn and who I want to learn from. And these are the some ofthe things I'm gonna do in that role. It's a beautiful opportunity.Now you need your hired manager's support to do that. Of course, youdon't wanna jeopardize your regular job. You certainly needthe executive sponsor's support of the group to make all that, youknow, open up all those doors and support you. Butthat's what it's about. There's some reallyterrible data out there. And I say data because it'snot right. I I hate to call other organizationswrong, but they're wrong.We survey our members constantly. You know, at every event,we're always asking them. And this job is notcompensated. It's not a job. It's a temporaryassignment. It's like volunteering to be on the Parent Teacher Associationor something else where you feel like you want to have your voice heard. Youwant to learn some things. You want to make new connections. But it'snot a paid position. And the people who've gotten paid in thepast or made payment available got burned.Because now all of a sudden, you have 2 bosses, 2 sets of performance reviewsto deal with, and a lot of expectationsthat often are not in your control. So, you know, theygive you a bonus, a spot bonus. They give you a cash card.Go, you know, have a nice cup of coffee somewhere. That'sawesome. You know, maybe you're getting, a nice letter fromyour executive sponsor that you can put in your resume and your confidencecollection someday to go, I did a great job. If you canget some of that put into your regular performance review, even better. Forall those reasons, it's that those are valuable. They may not becash convertible, but they're very valuable. But toexpect that you're gonna get paid to do this work. I think that goesback to what we're saying before. DEI wanted all these people to beambassadors and that was that was unpaid work. And Idon't think that's fair. But if you're doing it for yourself in a way that'sgoing to improve your ability to lead and contribute to theorganization, whatever organization that is in the future,that's a great opportunity. Yeah. I suppose the way I would frame it is
Joanne Lockwoodhost
it's a it's a fast track growth opportunity to stepout of your comfort zone, to step into something else. Also, if you'reoperating at the senior level within the ERG, then itwill give you access to upper management in organisationsand across teams where you're networking with other ERGs, otherleaders. So you will be very well connected, very well known, and it's ait's a fantastic opportunity for for career development, career advancementas a CV line, especially if you went to another organisation.It's it's a huge, great asset to you and your growth. So Ithink you're right. This may be seen as afinancially rewarding at the time, but an investment in your career, investmentin a vocation that you can step out of being atechie and into management without and have a test drive.
Alyssa Dverguest
Absolutely. And, you know, it's not just for the senior people. Like a juniorperson who maybe they wanna run an event and they've neverdone something like that. Well, what a great opportunity toexperience it. You know, the the curricula that we designed and Imentioned the blueprints before. I said it's like a mini MBA.It really is. I mean, I went to the top business school in the worldand I promise you it's like a mini MBA.So if you can get that for free with low risk andat the same time a lot of support around you so you're notstudying on your own kind of thing. Oh my gosh. But peopledon't see it that way. They either like, I'm doing the work of DI orI'm doing, you know, all this other Yeah, it's it is additionalwork. I give it to you. It is a work and it's stressful and wesee a lot of burnout. But that's largely because theexpectations are not well set, and theyare also not well managed. We get the same problem sometimes as we do in
Joanne Lockwoodhost
in the hired job where people aren'texperienced or trained or capable leaders. And putting withinERG for to to grow their leadership skills is good, butit it's also fraught with problems as well. So we've got to make sure there'sgood governance and rules andpolicies, for whatever better way of describing it. Otherwise, ERGs couldbecome a political hotbed of matriarchalpatriarchal clashes and demigods kicking in andit's my budget, not your budget. We're gonna do it my way. Dungeons and
Alyssa Dverguest
Dragons and ERGs, right? I think, yeah, absolutely.But, you know, I gave the example of a parentteacher organization. What what do you call them in the UK? Because here they goPTOs or you have the PTA,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Parent Teacher Association. Yeah. Yeah. Let me think about that. Village FATE,organizing a carnival or something like that. Yeah. Right. Or
Alyssa Dverguest
even, you know, if you're on some kind of advisory board for a religious organizationor even a board for a nonprofit or a a startup. Right? If there's no rules of engagement, if there's no kind ofexpectations of what your, contribution andsubsequent behavior should be, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is chaos. You'reabsolutely right. But an ERG is no different. I say ERGs areinternal in associations. That's what they are. So if you run them withoutany governance, without any guardrails, yeah, you better believe people aregonna run off the road. It's just nature ofhumans. But but it's not very hard to create those guardrails. Andit's not very hard to also ensure thatpeople in and around the organization and here'sanother huge mistake. The only way an ERJ, I'm gonnabe very absolute with this. The only way one of these groups really does wellis if it has good executive sponsorship. Why? Because theyhave the visibility, they have the ear, they have the powerreally to ensure that that group isrespected. Right? But how many organizationstrain their ear their executive sponsors? And they they look at these c suite ordirector level people, and they're like, oh, they're so smart. They know everything.Baloney. Bullshit. They do not know how to be an executivesponsor. We say to them, Oh, you're all just to advocate. They're like, I don'tknow what that means. I don't know how to do that. So, oneof the things I did is I went out and interviewed 50 executive sponsors andevery single one of them were like, I don't know what I'm doing.And I'm like, well, of course you don't know what you're doing. You never weretaught how to do this. It's a different role thanthe one that you do day to day, or your CFO or CMO or whateverit is. It's a completely different role. And nobody teachesyou how to be a mentor. Nobody teaches you how to be an advocate.Nobody teaches you how to represent.And so, not training those executive sponsors knowing that they're akey, that's a huge monumental mistake. Wedid more training this year for executive sponsors than anyone. So, I'm encouraged thatthat's a trend. But at the same time, man, if you have executivesponsors that have never been trained, that's a vulnerability.That's a liability. The vulnerability of the sponsor is as career
Joanne Lockwoodhost
developing as any other as the other way around, where you're you'relearning about different aspects of the business. You're you're probably drillingdown and coming in contact with people you wouldn't have come in contact, listening toopinions, listening to views, getting your finger on the pulse.If everybody at the C suite was executive sponsoringin their own right, they would have huge insights into theground floor of their business, wouldn't they? Yes, absolutely.
Alyssa Dverguest
Absolutely. And the whole ERG is a is
Joanne Lockwoodhost
a a win win or should be a win win forboth the people of which it represents, but also the organization in whichit serves. That's exactly what I
Alyssa Dverguest
got into in the beginning. I was like, we're doing these wrong, and we gottado them better. And the only way we're gonna do them better is if werally a global community that can helpfigure out what those things are. You know, I said before thatthere's no progression. Well, you know what? There's no best practices either andthere's no experts. And the reason being becauseevery organization, of course, is different. Different culture, different leadership,every group itself is different. But that doesn't mean wecan't have some benchmarks and some standards that peoplelook and say, Okay, this is what we, you know, we need to have apolicy guide. What's in that policy guide will vary from organizationto organization. We need to have some governance for a group. And again, itmay vary from one to the other, but there's certain aspects of governance that theyall should have. We need to have structure. Not every group is going to havethe same structure, but we need to have a structure. And here's what typicallyis in organizations for at least your group to consider.And I think that I know thatnot trying to be the expert and tell people what to do, but bring thecommunity together to say, okay, how are we gonna make these groupsbetter, stronger, morebusiness centric without losing that employeecontrol, I would say. Least employeevalue. Yeah, I think it's a hugewin win. I think we're going to see the data and we're starting to seedata already showing that when the groups are done well,the overall productivity and profitability of the organization goes up. Andit's not just the people that are in the groups, it's the entire organization goesup. But we also see the opposite when you say, Yeah, we're going tohave the groups because we want a checkbox. We want to be able to saythat we have these groups, but we're not really going to support them well.We actually see profitability and productivity go down Becausepeople know that the managers are full of crap. If you're listening to this, and
Joanne Lockwoodhost
you're sitting there thinking, wow, that sounds utopian. Iwant an ERG just like that. Our organization,whatever, tick whichever box doesn't work for you. What advice wouldyou, or starting point, would you say to someone, if it's not working,how does someone get involved and catalyze it? What are the key things tokicking it into the right orbit? Oh, wow. Well, two things come to mind.
Alyssa Dverguest
1st, and it's not a commercial because these are all free.Jump on our website, grab a copy of the book, which is a PDF ofthe ERG intelligence book. It's everything you need to know about ERGs. It's ashort quick read. But you can at least start to think about some of thethings that, you know, should be in place before you really getgoing. The second thing isto really talk to some employees. And usually, I mean, we just did this
Alyssa Dverguest
with actually a company that's based inthe Netherlands, but they have they operate in 42 countries.They said, look, we want to do we want to have a conversation likea town hall almost where we can come and talk about what these groups couldbe like and will look like. And if you're interested in learning more, come andtalk. And so we led that that conversation, knowingthat not everybody was gonna show up, but at least you start to attract thepeople that have that interest, and you build that community then tobuild and leverage it through your organization. But toexpect a single diversity person ordepartment for that matter, if there's still a department in your organization,or to expect the employees to do it on their own, it's kind of naive.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
This has been a fascinating conversation. This hour has flownby in addition to the 20 minutes we were chatting in the green roombeforehand. I'm sure the listener who's got tothis point is dying to find out how to get a hold of you. Wherecould people track you down? Well, all right. I'm going to give 2
Alyssa Dverguest
URLs because get on there and contact us on both pages will willfind its way to me if you have a direct question. So the ergleadershipalliance.comis the one around ERGs. Ergleadershipalliance.com, justlike that. And the American ConfidenceInstitute.com is the brain scienceconfidence entity. So if you have 1 or either one, youcan go to and contact us and it'll get to me. And you work globally?
Joanne Lockwoodhost
It's not just US focused? It's all across Europe, Asia?
Alyssa Dverguest
Everywhere. You know, it's interesting I say American confidence. And we were verydeliberate when we started that because it is very focused on Northand Central and South American confidence constructs.But the data and the research we've done globally, and we certainly do presentaround the world. And forgive me for saying that this, but at least physiologically,our brains are the same. So so, yeah. And
Joanne Lockwoodhost
LinkedIn is a good place to track you down as well. Absolutely. Just my name
Alyssa Dverguest
is a little tough to spell, so I'll spell it out loud if that's okay,Jo. It's A-L-Y-S-S-AD-V-E-R. Andyou can find me. I'm the only one, thankfully, with that tough name.And I welcome any and all connections, comments, and love to connect withpeople online as well as over Zoom or whatever you use.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Fantastic. Again, thank you so much. It's beena really insightful conversation, and Ihope that January doesn't bring youmore sadness, and that you and your friends canfind some solace in a futurewhere it's only 4 years. It's only 4 years, and I can just move to
Alyssa Dverguest
London, right? Go to London. Yeah. You're welcome here.No. You know, it is only 4 years, but at the same time, it's gonnabe a tough 4 years. And I I rely on people like yourself andothers in the community that we, we're so proud to support that,we're gonna get through this together. And it's gonna make us stronger, smarter, andmore prepared for all the challenges that have yet tounfold. And let's hope that the this coming 4 years
Joanne Lockwoodhost
is the end. So this is an end date.There's no second bite of the cherry or third bite of the cherry. There's hope.There's hope. Yeah. Well, again, if it if it isn't the
Alyssa Dverguest
end, we're gonna be ready. More ready than we ever werebefore. But, you know, here's the thing. It's not a fight,you know. Don't want people to think that, you know, it's this aggressive.We're gonna fight it. I think what it really is is really finding theway, as we've said through this entire interview.It's not a win win. It's not a it's not a win lose situation. Wehave to find win win. And so part of this is,maybe coming to the table with some some smarter ways to makepeople fear less that they're losing. And fearless that,we all have to be the top of the pyramid.It doesn't work that way. Yeah. I suppose we have to recognize that 75
Joanne Lockwoodhost
odd million people are not all wrong. So there must be somepoints of view in there that are worth sharing and understanding. Althoughhard to work it out. Yeah. For sure. Thank you so much for having me
Alyssa Dverguest
today. What a what a lovely opportunity to talk with you. So thank you somuch. Alyssa, thank you. As we
Joanne Lockwoodhost
bring this conversation to a close, I want to express mydeepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lendingyour ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.If today's discussion struck a chord, consider subscribing toInclusion Bites and become part of our ever growingcommunity, driving real change. Share this journey withfriends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voicesthat matter. Got thoughts, stories, or avision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.And let's make your voice heard. Until next time. Thisis Joanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to returnwith more enriching narratives that challenge,inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusiveworld, one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.
In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood welcomes guest Alyssa Dver to discuss the nuances of creating and sustaining a sense of belonging. Joanne reflects on turning 60, sharing how she feels more settled in her personality and wisdom gained over the past decade. Alyssa appreciates this perspective, noting that age often brings the ability to simplify and enrich life by focusing on what truly matters. The conversation touches on shedding unnecessary relationships and valuing meaningful connections as they age. Alyssa Dver, a confidence expert and leader of the ERG Leadership Alliance, joins Joanne to share her remarkable insights on empowerment and belonging. Alyssa has dedicated her career to helping people feel valued and confident, creating spaces where everyone can find a sense of belonging. Through her work with the American Confidence Institute and ERG Leadership Alliance, Alyssa has influenced corporate cultures globally, providing training and resources to enhance leadership and foster inclusive environments. Alyssa's personal journey, including experiences with her son's neurological issues, has fuelled her passion for genuine well-being and psychological safety in the workplace. Joanne and Alyssa discuss the importance of being judicious with time and relationships, likening unnecessary subscriptions to unneeded relationships that drain rather than add value. They also touch upon the influence of diverse perspectives, with Joanne highlighting the importance of understanding others' lived experiences even without full agreement. Alyssa sheds light on the learned nature of selfish behaviours as defensive mechanisms and the role of belonging in reducing global conflicts. The debate around Employee Resource Groups (ERGs) ownership, governance, and the strategic structure necessary for their effectiveness is explored, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of ERGs' dynamic roles in organisations. The episode concludes with hopes for a peaceful resolution to future societal challenges and emphasises the power of community support in fostering resilience. Joanne invites listeners to share their thoughts, subscribe to the podcast, and stay engaged for future episodes that promise to delve deeper into inclusivity and belonging. A key takeaway from this episode is the shift from accumulating to prioritising meaningful connections, the critical role of diverse perspectives in fostering innovation, and the importance of empowering others to create inclusive environments. Whether you're managing an ERG, navigating personal growth, or seeking to cultivate a sense of belonging in your community, this episode offers valuable insights to inspire and guide you on your journey.
The views and opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of Inclusion Bites, SEE Change Happen Ltd or Joanne Lockwood. This episode is shared for general interest and discussion; we accept no responsibility for the accuracy or completeness of any statements made.
