Anna VanAgtmael explores the transformative journey from corporate life to empowering women through adventure retreats, blending fearless connections and bold living, while navigating the challenges of entrepreneurship and personal growth.
Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuaryfor bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood,your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart ofinclusion, belonging, and societal transformation.Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world whereeveryone not only belongs but thrives? You'renot alone. Join me as we uncover theunseen, challenge the status quo, and sharestories that resonate deep within. Ready to divein? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or windingdown after a long day, let's connect, reflect,and inspire action together. Don't forget,you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out tojo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.ukto share your insights or to join me on the show.So just your earbuds and settle in. It's time toignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.And today is episode 153 with thetitle, fearless connections, bold journeys.And I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome AnnaVan Atmel. Anna is the founder of Wandering Roots,hosting transformative adventure retreats worldwide and empoweringwomen to design lives filled with authenticity, connection,and purpose. When I asked Anna to describe her superpower, she saidthat it is increasing risks to inspire fierce livingand authentic connections. Hello, Anna. Welcome to theshow. Thank you for having me. Pleasure. So wherewhereabouts in the world are you? Did you say Michigan? Yes. I'm in Michigan in
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
the US. It's very cold here. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I was talking to someone from Atlanta the other day, and they said it wasalmost snowing in Atlanta at this time. Yeah. I haven't heard It's kind of been
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
a weird year for everybody even where it's not supposed to be cold. So
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. Weird. Yeah. It was very wet. Very wet and a lot of storms overthere. So yeah. Yeah. The UK is not a not a happy place either.
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
No. But, you know, everybody, I've actually hosted a fewretreats in the UK, Scotland, and then alsoIreland, and we're going to Iceland too this year. But I'm like, it's justweather. We're so used to it. It makes all of us pretty resilient. So I'mI'm happy to to dwell here. As
Joanne Lockwoodhost
the saying goes, it's not the wrong weather. It's just the wrong clothing.
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
Yes. No. I always say that. I always say there's no badweather, just bad gear. Yeah. Exactly. Really well. Iagree. Yeah. You can be wrapped up and snuggly in a huge coat, and,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
you can be minus 10 outside. Yeah.So, Anna, what inspired you to leave? Yeah. You hada successful career. What inspired you to leave that and pursue this lifeof adventure where you create spaces for women? Yeah.
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
For the most part, it was a long journey. It was a couple years.I will give you the highlights, the cliff notes, if you will. But I,I got the opportunity in my old career in laboratorymedicine to start a build a lab. I was thefirst employee and there were the owners and that was it. II built the lab, bought the equipment, hired the staff,and it sort of planted the seed ofbeing an entrepreneur with no financial risk, which is usually a hang upfor most of us. And, it just made me thinka little differently, but also I had to have necksurgery around the same time. So I was in a neck brace for 4 months,and I couldn't do anything. Couldn't drive, had had to take a pause onwork. It was the first time I probably paused ever in my life. I was28. And, I had so muchtime to sit with my thoughts, and I was wildly unhappy. I had realizedthat I had achieved more financial and sortof career, like, climbing the ladder success than I ever thoughtpossible, but I still wasn't jazzed about it.And I I just wanted I had this verywake up moment of I get one life. I'vejust felt my mortality for the first time. You know, in your twenties, you thinkyou're gonna like, that's just something that happens to old people. And,I was like, I don't wanna screw this up. I wannasqueeze every drop out of it. I wanna be jazzed about it, and,this is not it. And, that's pretty terrifying.And there was a lot of shame around that of not being great more gratefulfor what I had. I had attained a lifestyle that I reallyenjoyed and didn't really want to start over and let go of.So, yeah, I.
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
I took yoga teacher training to sort of help heal mychronic neck pain and not become a pain management patient. And,took yoga teacher training and I had been traveling quite a bit and Ithought I had this experience in training thatI was with 11 strangers, 11 women that were supporting eachother. And we were sharing very vulnerable parts of ourselves, andeverybody is loving and accepting each other for who they were and not who theywere trying to be. And I thought I could create that type ofenvironment, and combine up my love of travel and host aretreat. And I tried one in 2018,like, in Northern Michigan, a few hours away from where I live.And I did a long weekend, and then I did another one, and then Idid another one, and then I started hosting international for 7days, and it just kinda took off from there. Wow. I'm loving it. I I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
mean, I your kind of story there really resonates. You know, you get to thatpoint in your life where you think I could just carry on as Iam, walk into the distance with no control over my life,just doing what everyone expects on this conveyor belt, off you go. Sometimes youjust have to hit the stop button, don't you? And just say, hang on. Iwanna get off for a minute and get figure out what I'm doing now. Yeah.
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
I had, like, right around the I also, at the same time of havingthat epiphany of, like, you only get a one chance. You only get one life.I was like, I have created all of this. And so ifI'm passionate about my work, I'm sure I could have even more success.And also like, I never once thought about what I wanted. Iwas literally just being a practical human being, gettinggood grades, going to college, getting a job in healthcare, becausethere would be, you know, job security for the rest of my life. I neverever thought about, like, what I was passionate about or what inspired meor interested me. I guess you you must have been surrounded by
Joanne Lockwoodhost
people who were inspired, but also cautious aboutwhat you were doing. Sort of it's not not to say holding you back, butthey, you sure? Are you sure about this? Yeah. It was
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
very, very practical. A lot of just practical humanbeings, which I kind of consider to be a little bit of sleep,just kinda comfortable and not really, like, living living. Andright around the time I went to yoga teacher training, Isort of just tripped into this network of entrepreneurs atthe same time. It was like those worlds of me sort of waking upand then being surrounded by other people that were thinking differently than the otherpeople that I've been spending time with or even how I felt like had beenthinking. So that was definitely the culmination. You know, they always sayyou're the, what is it? The 5 people you spend themost time with are usually a reflection of who you are as well.So Yes. That's very true. I I was looking through the, the
Joanne Lockwoodhost
show notes you you sent through earlier and,your kind of mantra around the fearof doing things holds you back. But it's it's it's how you break throughthat fear. And not to say being riskadverse, but being risk managed and and knowing that the fearis just it's just fake. It is.
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
People do, assume I'm fearless and I'm not.Everybody has some fear. It's a fear, but,I have a bigger fear ofgetting to the end and, having regrets that I didn't trysomething than taking a risk. And my husband isvery risk averse. And I'm just not.I side hustled the business, Wandering Roots, for 2years before I jumped in full time, tried to build an audience fromscratch and knew that was gonna take a while, shoved money away into asavings account to try to make that leap a little, Iguess, managed, risk managed. And, yeah, there'sways there are multiple ways to skin a cap. And, that'swhat works for me. I guess that's the roots of of being
Joanne Lockwoodhost
an entrepreneur though, isn't it? It's it's risk management and justgoing for it. All the time. I mean, how many
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
how many times do you try something new as an entrepreneur? You're trying to figureout you're wearing all these hats. You're trying to figure out all these things. And
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Oh, don't you know what a molecular diagnostic is? You know, isit it sounds kind of really kind of big brain stuff.
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
Yeah. I, we used to like, if you go to thedoctor and you have your blood drawn, there's routine labs thatjust get that ran at a general hospital. And thenanything specialized that gets sent out, that's what moleculardiagnostics is. It's cancer screening. Prenataldiagnostics is a really big one, and that's what the last7 years I spent time in. There's things for anything, though.Just just better testing, better diagnostics. It wasI am a person that gets bored easily. I like to be challenged, and it
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
fed my soul in that capacity for quite a while. And thenhaving to start from scratch and manage people also was achallenge that I wasn't familiar with. So I'mgrateful for it. It I always say that,you know, being an entrepreneur, the more, like, experienceyou have in a previous life is just going to serve you in thiscapacity because there are so many I I was really, reallyinto data and publishing journal articles and things, andthat really helps me serve my clients todaywhen I plan their retreats because I am a numbers nerd. I lovespreadsheets. Nobody that has ever hosted aretreat, myself included, is doing it for the profit, but it's the only way tosustain your business instead of operating an extensive hobby.To be able to share the work and the content you're passionate aboutand be able to energetically be able to do anotherone is really, really helpful, and a lot of people get bogged down by it.And that's just a thing that I had been fine tuning as aexecutive for a long time, 13 years. Soit's kinda second nature. Well, like you said, that profit isn't
Joanne Lockwoodhost
a dirty word. And if you wanna create a sustainablebusiness with legs that is there to serve the needs people you youhelp, You have to have to earn money. You have to pay their mortgage andthe rent and they, put food on the table. Yeah. You gotta make enough
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
money to pay for your venue and your support staff and then payyourself. So you're part of the team. Yeah. We're not we're not all Bill Gates
Joanne Lockwoodhost
philanthropists with billionaires that we can just expand for the fun ofit. Exactly. I what you're saying resonates completely because I I spentmost of my life in IT computing. Amazing.Yeah. So I I left well, actually, I was electronics engineer when I was atschool, and then moved over to IT, and then spent20 odd years, 25 years in in IT. Any smallbusiness looking after small companies, venturenetworks and servers and phone systems, that kind of stuff. And then Igot, I found my get off the conveyor belt momentabout 10 years ago and, jacked it all in and, created anew career out of nothing. That was quite risky. And, there's no certaintyin that, is there? No. There's no certainty. I do
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
I do think there's a lot of excitement in it, though. If you don't getbogged down by all the fear, it's like not a lot of peoplego after their dreams and just go for it. And it's thehighest highs and the lowest lows. It's a mixed bag. But ifyou get too caught up into the lows, you never get to enjoy the highs.Wouldn't I would it was hard. And it still is, butI wouldn't I wouldn't change it. Yeah. I also look back at my my
Joanne Lockwoodhost
career, if you want, or life in the past that you do pick up alot of these ice skills. So I'm I'm very I was very familiar with consulting,engaging with customers, solution selling,sales, marketing, business development, because it was my business, the ITcompany. You gotta get used to all this stuff, organizing your own travel. Sowhen you start another business, you you've got all of these skills ready at hand,haven't you? Yeah. Totally. I'm even thinking IT
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
for podcasting. Like, all of the equipment and things is probably somuch easier for someone like you. Yeah. I mean, COVID was
Joanne Lockwoodhost
certainly easier. Yeah. Because one of my hobbies wasphotography and videography and editing videos andthings like this. And suddenly we we need cameras. Suddenly we needlightings, which are all the key elements to photography and videography is lightingand cameras and, and sound. You were like, I've been training
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
for a long time for this, guys. I got you. And in the first couple
Joanne Lockwoodhost
of months of COVID, I was, providing a kind ofa an ad hoc service to people who were trying to get online and getgoing and restart their businesses. So I was doing training for peopleon how to set their cameras up, how to get their their on screenpresence looking good. And so that that gave me a bit of a purposefor 2 or 3 months until the market suddenly picked up again,like I start doing other stuff. But, yeah, it it gave me a apurpose when, otherwise, I'd be sat in bed going, doomis woe is me. So Yeah. Finding a bringingall that expertise into the fore, It's just anotherentrepreneurial trait. Isn't it saying, well, I I can see a gap here. There's abit of a market. Wasn't making a fortune. I was helping people.
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
Yeah. I think that's, the entrepreneur mind. Right? It's always fillinga need. Like, you were solving a problem. Was giving youpurpose, and I think that there's a collision between, like, what lights youup and also solving a problem for the client. So So
Joanne Lockwoodhost
you you now enjoy not only the organization and in thelogistics of getting people onto the retreat, you get thebonus of going on the retreat and enjoying what you're creatingas well. Yeah. I, so I first just started just
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
hosting retreats. And a lot of other entrepreneursasked me, like, in the early years, would you ever plan it for otherpeople? And so I said, no. I have no idea what I'mdoing. I'm still figuring out. And then COVID happened, and Iquit my lab job in October 2019only to have to cancel the majority of my events and my retreats for2020. And I thought it was gonna be the 1st year, you know, both feetin, all this excitement, and it just really didn't work outthat way. But I was like, okay. I don't wanna go back. This
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
is a test from the universe and I I'm I'm like firm and that Idon't want to do that anymore. And so Iwill take this time and create a servicefor the people that were requesting it, sort of giving me a purpose, likeyou said, filling a need and, treated adigital course at the same time, because what else do you do exceptrecord things at your house, you know, to put something out there.So I actually, in the last year,last year and this year too, is where I spend most of my timeis helping other entrepreneurs plan and host their own.And then I still host 2 to 3 internationalones of my own a year, but that's I used to do6 a year, so that's scaled back significantly.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So the way helping others organize their events is less riskythan having to finance your own events, I guess. Of course, Christy. You are
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
absolutely correct because I'm not putting out the capsule. They are. It'salso it's my favorite. It's like being able to shareall the mistakes I've made and hold their hand and tell them it's all gonnawork out great. And people are so, so passionate aboutsharing whatever they want to share that it's reallyit feels like it wouldn't have happened without us working together. It feels likewe find we got to bring it to the world together and hearing theirstory is just so much fun. It's like we really get to knoweach other, and it's just a lot of women supporting women andbusiness owners supporting business owners. It's a lot offlexibility because I don't have to be there. I, you know, I can work onit, when I have time. I've never done a
Joanne Lockwoodhost
retreat. I no. I I I've got a reason or excuse all why. I justI just never have. Never been in the right time, the right place. I've seenthem advertised. I've seen people talking about them and look after Bali for aweek or fortnight or 2 weeks. Yeah. Whatever it may be. And I think, oh,yeah. So what does a typical retreat look and feellike? So good question. First of all, there are thousands of them, and
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
they're all very different. And I've helped them, like, justso many different types of humans plan theirs, like foodphotography, actors. You know, there's people in the wellness sphere of,like, Reiki, massage therapy, Thai massage, woman that runs anonprofit just for Asian women. There's just, there's just so many ways youcan do it. But mine, I want everybody to try something thatkind of terrifies them. I want them to like step outside of their comfortzone with a supportive group of people around themand also have that pause like I did where all of yourresponsibility is taken care of because we have a personal chef. Wehave somebody there that's taking photos so you can disconnect fromyour phone all week. And then youliterally I always say the itinerary is just the suggestion.Pick and choose the things in the present moment of what you actually wannaparticipate in and tune into what you actually want day to day,but also what you want out of life and, see if we can maybetake something from that experience and incorporate it into your your dailylife. Yeah. I love that. I I heard someone describe another
Joanne Lockwoodhost
organization I was doing some work with as, I use the f word.Fucking out with friends is what they described it as. So you you go outto these places That's my favorite word. Fucking around with friends and stealing it.Yeah. So you're basically you just know you got a supportive environment. There's nosilly questions. There's no silly mistakes. Everyone's there to pick you up, which isthe opposite of social media. Because everyone on social media wants to put you down.This is picking you up and Ours is turning into a little
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
bit of, like, adult summer camp almost wherepeople meet, become friends, and then they, like, get together to, like,book the same one for the following year so they can reunite.And, you know, when you're in summer camp, you're always like, what week are youcoming back next year? And you try to, like, you know, line it up withyour besties. But, yeah, it's so much fun. It's really,really rewarding to be able to see these people everysingle year and sometimes more than once a year.And watching strangers become friends is fun too. It's really
Joanne Lockwoodhost
That's beautiful. Yeah. So I can imagine you there. The thecoach arrives from the airport. There you are with the clipboard ticking peopleoff. Yep. Shelly, number 1. Shelly, number 2. Yeah. I'm the
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
only one that knows what room they're in because I do all the logistics,but there's always a, like, just a chaotic massivebags and hugs and things. And then we usually haveour first meal together and do intros. We go aroundthe table, and everybody does a quick intro. And then I make everybody go aroundthe table and say 3 things they love about themselves because Ithink we can get bogged down with the the roles andresponsibilities and all the hats we wear. And, you kinda get theessence of who they are as a being when they just say the three thingsthey love about themselves. So it's nice. Yeah. I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
would I would just say if they come multiple years, whether they say the sameas three things, that'd be interesting to track that. Yeah. You know, we can sometimes
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
see people get a little more confident and say, like, bigger things, you know,because sometimes it's hard for people to to find through things, which is kindahard and sad. But for some people that have no problem with 3 and theycould do another 3 the following year, they could do 6 right away. Youknow? So, I was just my mind was just wondering there thinking, what
Joanne Lockwoodhost
have what have you done this year? Kicked my husband out, got a new life,and living my best life now. So that's all the empowerment you've given people. Yeah.
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
Yeah. One lady quit her job before she went home. 1 year. Goes toRica. Oh, it's just Well, I I guess that's what you're
Joanne Lockwoodhost
trying to you're trying to give people that empowerment. You wake people up. Some
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
people wake up more than others. Some peoplereally just need the space to justto just reset. You know? Because you get hung up on
Joanne Lockwoodhost
the grind, don't you? You're just you're doing the same thing day in, day outand so familiar with what you're doing and everythingelse rushes by. Yeah? Yeah. So you step out of it?
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
I think there I think that you can do any of this type of workat home. You can. I just think it's easier to go awaysometimes to to not have anydistractions. We have multiple women that say they've never felt thattaken care of. So sometimes just that reminder that you are worthyof being taken care of is really beautiful. I personally, Iwork from home, and it takes a lot for your time management. I don't knowif you feel the same way, but, like, you can getdistracted by the dog or the laundry or just anything stupidand then kinda get into your cycle of routines and forget to pauseanyways. You know? So Yeah. I mean, that's my procrastinating
Joanne Lockwoodhost
brain. There's something shiny or something, a squirrel or something else sort of under thebus. Oh, look. It's got It's not even there. It's not still
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
outside. Oh, shoot. I was supposed to do this proposal or that
Joanne Lockwoodhost
proposal or get that done. It it cram all in the last half an hourof the day, and he goes, that was alright. We made it in the end.Yeah. Be less stressful if I just got all within the morning and then didn'tget distracted. I feel that. I feel that.I don't think my brain would've worked properly if I forced it. I saw that.
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
I I often get days like that. I really appreciate a slow morning and justsort of being eased into the day. I'm more of a night person than amorning, and I feel a little bit sharper after that,like, hour of brain fog kinda like burns off. But soI feel like morning is still a more productive, like, part ofmy day, but that first hour, forget it. It just feels forced.It feels too forced. Yeah. I'm a, I'm
Joanne Lockwoodhost
a work from bed person for the person 2 hours a day. So II get up about half 6 quarter to 7 most mornings,get my phone out, check LinkedIn, check social medias,maybe write a blog post on my phone or talk to it, do a bitof AI processing. And I get up, have some breakfast. About10 o'clock, I'll start actually booking meetings and doing stuff.So, yeah, it's kind of my start. And then in the evening, I'll I'llget off my desk here, and I'll I'll sit in the lounge for an hourjust on the phone, just checking a few things, social media.So, yeah, I I kind of try and occupy different spaces and dodifferent tasks that, made me happy. There's nopoint sitting in a chair and feeling uncomfortable if you might as well sit onthe sofa and do some of this stuff. You got to do more through you.
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
I a 100% agree. I have a friend that gets up andwrites for 4 hours every single day, and then shefuck fucks off in the afternoon. She just is, like, never.She just sucks in the afternoon. She can't get anything done. And even ifshe forced it, it takes her, you know, double the length of time. So she'slike, what's the point? So, yeah, she just commits to that.Like, we should just do whatever works for you. I let you just say, I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I I have that attitude to the whole of December. As soon as theas soon as it gets dark in the evenings, as soon as I Idetect a bit of holiday mode kicking in, I'm kinda like, I'm just I'mnot just on the run run down here for Christmas Eve. I'm just yeah.Just Same. Having a I actually took the last 3 weeks
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
of the year off last year, December. It's just it's awasteland. My husband's seasonal. He's a landscaper.So he's off doing nothing, and I'm like, well, I want to do nothing.You know? So it's just and then, yeah, it feels like it's 10o'clock at 6 because it's pitch black, and I just I lackthe motivation. A couple years ago, my wife actually joined me
Joanne Lockwoodhost
in the business. So she gave up her, paidemployment by a, yeah, by a company and, andjoined me. So because one of the challenges of the app was that Ihad the flexibility of freedom to work when I want and also work when Idon't want to. That's the only trouble with entrepreneurship. You work when you want, butalso work when you don't want. Yep. And there was a couple of times whereI just said, oh, we should go away this weekend or go away on theFriday or just do it midweek. Of course, she was then restrictedby, the paid employment. Yeah. Sosomehow I just thought, let's make this work. And it's that's not be easy.It's trying to generate all the whole entire household income fromfrom one stream. But, Yeah. We can now if we wanna go away for theweekend, we wanna stop working at 5 o'clock. Just go just go do something.
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
So we're in the we're in the same camp. We are both on ourown businesses as well. So I feel the the freedom and the flexibilityand the joy of it, and then also the pressure of just like nothing toshare. But It is. Yeah. It's nice. It'smostly nice. Paying for our insurance is crushing my spirit at themoment, but it's fine. It's just one of the byproducts of of doingit your own way. It's it's definitely a said to be said
Joanne Lockwoodhost
where you should not care for you. You're both on different pages and anddifferent speeds. But but but yeah. As you said, you you'reboth entrepreneurs. You both have your own businesses. You can both make decisions when youwant to. Mhmm. When there was a disconnect, it it became frustrating forboth of us. Yeah. I I wanna do something, like, and we can't.Marie would look at me and say, oh, so right for you, being a dowhat you want, I'm gonna go. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, it it's it's been ahuge change to our relationship over the last 3 or 4 years now. It's,immensely more powerful. I think that adds to the entrepreneurial journeybecause Vidi does become your lifestyle, not just your business.
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
Totally. And I think we've both, like, grownat sort of the same rate, but at different timesbecause there's so many limiting beliefs you have to overcome too as anentrepreneur and things like that. So I sort of think thatthere would have been a disconnect of, like, one of us sort ofbeing stuck in this older, like, kinda timeframe andthen the other one moving forward. And so it'sbeen a lot. It's been incredible, honestly.So yeah. Are are you building a brand, or are you just building
Joanne Lockwoodhost
a a a single person business type thing? Are you are you justtrying to build it to sell, or are you just building it to live? So
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
we are just building it to live both of them. Hepotentially he's never wanted to get too big where hecouldn't be there and work on his own jobs. Like, they're his designs, and hewants to see them through to the end. And there's also, like, so muchequipment involved in running each crew, and we don't really wantto to have that much overhead and equipment. Sohe very much got to a point he's in his 8th year andI'm in my 7th. And he,just was like, this is it. I will only take on this many jobsper year and that's it. I don't want to grow.I, and then he potentially would sellto his, employee that he's had for the majority of thetime. Something for a later discussion when we're in our our early forties.But, I have 2 bestfriends that I've hosted every single we've hosted 22 timestogether. One's the chef, one's the photographer. And,if either one of them wanted to carry it on whenever I decide I'dno longer want to do it, they would be able to do it. Otherwise, Iwould just close it. It's it's my brand. It's my baby.Yeah. I'm with you. I mean, my IT companies, I had
Joanne Lockwoodhost
30 odd staff, £3,000,000, u UK pound turnover,stress, wage bills, and taxes, all this kind of stuff onpremises. And I when I started doing this freelancingand I started I took on a social media person. I took on aa graphic designer to do some of the assets. Suddenly, I thought, you know whatI mean? I'm taking on over. I don't want people. I don't wanna be responsiblefor people anymore. Yeah. I don't either. It andyeah. I had a I didn't have as big of a I
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
only had 10 people probably towards the end that reportedto me. It was fine. I just it's not something I wanna do all this.No. I like hiring contractors, like you said. I really love, like,hiring a professional that I know can do a better jobthan what I could. And I would also, like, waste somuch time on getting a result that I wasn't just about and thenjust letting them go, like, offloading it from my plate,just hiring somebody I trust and love and, yeah, contractorslike that. That's that's usually what I do. I suppose I'm
Joanne Lockwoodhost
taking advantage of AI tools now. I treat them as my assistant. So yougot writing assistants and copywriters and letter writers andmarketing copy. And even you can generate a good enough graphic witha bit of bit of prompting and stuff. So, yeah, I I feel I've gota team around me. They're just they're just not real. They're just AI. Yeah.
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
No. I agree. Especially in the last, like, couple years, it'sreally Yeah. Made it easier. Getting better. You know, the tools that come out all
Joanne Lockwoodhost
the time now is whatever chat GPT and OpenAI are looking at theseagents and things, you can Yeah. Start handling all your inquiries. I'vegot some other automation stuff I work on with another platform.You just drop somebody in it. I'd like this podcast I've sung. I was gonnadrop it into a workflow, and it spit out all the stuff I need atthe end of it without any real interaction. SoYeah. Yeah. So I feel like I've got friends to help. It's just digital friends.Yeah. Sowhat was the biggest lesson you've learned stepping out into the wind, into thecold, into the entrepreneurial life? What did what did you look back on as Idid know that? I think that I think that if you're
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
making if you're not making the same mistakes, you're doing it right. I thinkthere's so much trial and error. And you learn the mostwhen you when it doesn't work out the way you wanted. You can either pivotlike, ugh, I don't wanna do this at all. It didn't work out at all.Or you just have more information to move forward and tweakthings. Life is all about learning and moving forward. And Ithink that a lot of people get so in their head and that theydon't even try. And the the difference between the people that do and don't isjust they tried and they kept going. That's it. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you on that. Yeah. It's you have to let's use thef word again. You have to fuck up quickly and move on quickly. And knowwhat works, know what doesn't work. And, yeah, I think I've made so manymistakes over the last couple of years, but also so manyrecoveries as well. Yeah. And that gives you more
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
confidence. It builds resiliency and confidence just movingon from that. I I really agree with you of moving on quickly.You can't just dwell on your own shit. Like, it just learn thelesson and move on. Yeah. I think you're
Joanne Lockwoodhost
allowed to cry for a bit and get upset with yourself and shout at themirror and go, maybe not sit for a couple of nights. And thenit it just go, yeah, done that. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Don't let it take you
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
down for too long. I agree. Yeah. Just move on quickly.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So it's the people you work with,so the the women that come to your retreats or the retreats of the peopleyou work with, they're looking forauthenticity, empowerment. What's that looklike really? Yeah. Because people listen to this podcast. We're trying to get into theheads of the people listening. So if you're listening to this, we're talk we're talkingto you right now. So what's the what's the retreat really gonnado other than the buzzwords? Yeah. I think that
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
anytime you are just feeling called and, like, hold andsomething just keeps coming up on your radar, you're meant to do that thing. You'remeant to give it a shot. And I would say thateverybody that is coming is feeling a little bit in a transitionalperiod of time, a little bit stuck or a little bit likewhat's my next move? Is this really what I want? They'rethey're all alike in that of wanting just a little bit more.Sometimes not having any clue what that looks like, so gettingstuck and, you know, moving forward. But I will say when I startedwandering roots from scratch, there was a period of time where I knew I wantedto make a change, but I had no idea what I wanted to do. AndI just started doing things that interested me andkinda scared the hell out of me. So usually your mind to keep yousafe says, no, you can't do that. That's scary. Or,no, how would you ever learn how to do that? And everybody's a beginnerfor anything one time. That's how you get better at things. You keep doing itover and over. So the more you can just giveit a shot and then give your per self permission to just quit itif you don't like it. Life isn't that serious. You don't have to take yourselfthat seriously. And also don't get caught up in notknowing what you want yet. Just keep trying things. I like
Joanne Lockwoodhost
that. Because I used to say when I was starting this business, Iwas I was wandering around the woods with nocompass and no satnav, just figuring out I turn left or turnright. Oh, no. Don't like this. Go back. Try again and go that way. Andit's it's the joy of of being lost with purpose, if youlike. Yeah. Trying to find the exit. Well, that's
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
such a good way to describe it. It's yeah. Ifeel that to my core. That's exactly what it felt like. Nodirection, but some purpose. It's just, like, trying to figure it out. Imean, I also like I thought that I would just, like,plan people's retreats and teach yoga at a studio or plan people'svacations. I didn't even think about a retreat initially. I wasjust, like, putting a few feelers out there, trying things, and thenbeing like, I don't know if I wanna do that. You know? So,yeah, it really, evolved into something I didn'teven consider in the beginning. It's a question then. So these
Joanne Lockwoodhost
your traits are for women, I. E. Not for men,is an easy way of describing it. How does how dothey empower women being in a a female only spacewith feminine energy, if you like, or that connection?How's that different to differ from mixedenvironments or the traditional homenetworks they have? So I did
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
do a couple's retreat one time, and we had mixed couples.We had, you know, gay couples, lesbians, but we had wehad men for the first time. It just people weren't as open anddidn't connect as quickly. I don't know if it was because their partner was there.Sometimes it's actually, I feel like most of myguests would say this. It's usually easier to tell a strangersomething like some secret or something vulnerablebecause they don't know anything about you. They don't haveeverybody that you spend time with sees you in acertain container and box because that's how they see themselves. And soto not have those, like, boxes orthese, like, just these, like, relationships that kinda have these justrepeated patterns. It's a lot easier to justbe open, be vulnerable, start over,not be bogged down by how you're supposed to show up.That's been my experience. I actually have been,have several clients that host mixture treatsand, they love it and they have, and they do like large groups. Idon't love a large group. I don't really like the sound of it. I don'tknow. I'm very sensitive to like, some minor usually 10 to 12,but, like, again, you could can do anything ina retreat. It's just a container for whatever you wanna share. So the key
Joanne Lockwoodhost
element, I think what you're saying there is it's in order to to letgo of these beliefs, let go of what you're trying to let go of oror find something you're you're you're exploring, you've almost gottado it metaphorically naked without any baggage,without anything with you. You you turn out. So it could be mixed,but as long as you're not mixed with anybody you know, so you turn outwith a group of strangers of it. 100%. I think the
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
one my girlfriends that host the ones that are mixed, it's just alarge group of just mostly single people or peoplethat traveled solo. A lot of peopleand this was a lot in the beginning. We got a lot of people thatonly wanted to come with a friend, and it's like, you meet more people too.If you don't come with a friend, because that you don't have the security blanketthat you're like attached to, you gotta put yourself out there more, which meansyou'll also try other things, not just getting to know strangers, but you'll tryother things. So I think coming by yourself is the bestway to go. Yeah. And if you have social anxiety,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
you're you're introvert. You're not good at making friends. You're right.But there's bound to be somebody else in the group who is exactly the same.Yes. And then you'll pair up of 2 people who are okay. I'm a differentperson. I don't wanna talk to anyone either. We'll we'll be friends and talk toeach other and Yep. S, you connect, don't you? You'll connect over that. You'll
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
connect over your social anxiety. We have that happen all the time. Totally.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Did you see a rise as a result of COVID of of more socialanxiety? People having this you go from FOMO to toCBA. You can't be asked to go back out again. You know, Yuri?
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
Yeah. I will say that, in the beginning, people werejust a little bit nervous, especially to travel international. And,honestly, in the very beginning, it was, like, really hard to keep trackof, do I have to have a negative testto come home? And and, like, those regulations kept changing. I, actually,because of my lab background, found these telehealth tests that wereaccepted by PSA. And so we were able to aslong as we had Wi Fi tests at our venue, we didn't have to, like,ship everybody to, like, a health center or anything like that.So and then I really managed travel insuranceand other things like that just in case, like, you know, worst came to worst.That never happened. Thankfully, nobody tested positive. But after allof that, after maybe, like, 6 months of sort ofthat being the reality, it almost helped us.People were so, like, starved for human connectionand, travel travelpushes you anyways. I think it really expands your mindand just your flexibility and how seriously you take yourself.And, I think people are really missing that. They were missing beingable to experience new things and being able to goon an adventure. Yeah. I can always say, in my thirties and forties,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I I traveled extensively once. I used to work for a bank, and theyhad global offices. And I spent a lot of time in LA and SanDiego, Miami, New York, and, of course, the Far East, HongKong. But I saw this all all these glamorous locations around the world witha small team of IT implement implementation teams. So we wereworking hard, playing hard. We finished work at 5,and we pass until 5. Then we never know our sleeves, and we get back.We do this. And, you know, we were we were in Singapore and Hong Kongfor, I think, between them about 4 weeks between them.I got home, and I was just like, oh, I've done it. I've I've I'veI've maxed out the the the country. I've done it well. Maxed outthe clubs anyway. So I think you do need to go and explore a bitof the world. It's what it's certainly given me a a different outlook. It's agood one. Another experience I have was I was a member of a club, andit adds, a network of clubs all around the world again.And we were doing home hosting. We were just racking up in Iceland and stayingin someone's house for a week, in their hot tub or intheir jacuzzi and sauna in the back garden. In Finland, we're allwalking around in the snow drinking vodka and going into the sauna. And youjust live live the life of a local for a week or so. Yes.And the experience you just can't buy. Yeah. It's it's likeAirbnb where the where the guest stays with you. So they stay with the host.
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
Yeah. I a 100% agree with that. It'sfascinating to see how other parts of the world live. It's sodifferent, and it's awesome. Not the
Joanne Lockwoodhost
hotel version or the the backpacker versions. It's kind of like the everyday. Theygo off to work, you go and do something, and they give you they lendyou their car, and you just go and do something. It's like Yeah. Yes. Peopleare incredibly generous when you get to them. There's that trust built.
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
And they're usually we always hire a driver or a guy that's localso that they can give you sort of the history or fun facts and sortof take you off the beaten path. But it's more people wanna talk to themabout, like, their family and, you know, where they grew up andwhat school's like there. And, yeah, those types of questions, like the day today, how different it is. And, that's alwayswe keep in touch with almost all of our drivers because we get so muchtime with them, and they're usually just so much fun. So, yeah, it'sfun. Yeah. I'm just in in that moment, you're talking
Joanne Lockwoodhost
about drives are so much fun. We were out in, I think itwas Amsterdam in the Netherlands, and we gotan Uber. And what and we're going I don't know. We're going for half anhour or something at least half an hour on Uber. And one of the friendsI was said, excuse me, driver. Can can I can I pair my phonewith your stereo? And then we can play our own music in the car. Yeah.Sure. Here's the pairing code. So suddenly we've got this playlist in the back ofthe car. We'll see, oh, the fact that it's over. I think we probably dranktoo much. That helped. But, yeah, it was, for those moments where we now haveUber karaoke works. So Uber will let us put on the,connect to this, their their HiFi system. Well, I love a good travel story.
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
A lot of Yeah. You know? The memories.Right? The experience. Yeah. They're so enriching.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I think I think in a way that helps theentrepreneurial mindset because you you get so used to these randomsituations that are outside your comfort zone that mostly turn outwell. Yeah. Or with a with a really crazy story that you you kinda tapcan't tell anybody, but you're not dead. Yep. You know?Survived it. Yeah. I think too
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
when we're in a group, it's it's sort of that, like,they had to be there for it to be funny, and that sort of connectsas well. You all have that funny story together. And so, yeah,the human connection. What goes on tour stays on tour sort
Joanne Lockwoodhost
of mentality. It's it's it's like was it that film, TheHangover? You know, you you have to be there to experience it. Yeah.So without giving anything too drastic away, what are thewhat's the biggest fuck up you've ever had that that that turned out okay in
Joanne Lockwoodhost
the end? Yeah. So I actually this did not
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
happen on a retreat, thankfully, but we got stuck in atropical storm like a like, they got 11 inchesof rain in Costa Rica. It was, like, the worst rain storm they hadhad in, like, 13 years or something. And, wewere supposed to move just, like, 20 minuteslocation wise. A lot of times me and my 2 girlfriends willgo scout a location before, and weit started raining and, like, it always does. So you just wait anhour or 2 and then you go. And we were up in the mountains andwe just had to drive down to the beach basically, and it justnever stopped. And it was like rain from, like, like, where itlooks like a wall. It just was raining so hard. Butwe're like, well, we gotta we gotta go. We have a we have 4 wheeldrive. We'll give it our best shot. And we got stuck in a mudslide,and the car started coming back down the hill and it got stuckthe back tire on the passenger side, got stuck in a concreteculvert, thankfully. And so we walked back down thehill. I mean, we're just soaking wet and they thankfullyhad an empty room and we just stayed the night there. And in the morning,the entire road had washed out. So if we hadn't made it up the firsthill, we would have just been on our river. We would have never seen it.It was so dark out there. I waslike, this I just was like, you know,I think I'm gonna hire a driver from now on, like to navigatejust this shit because I alsocan't navigate and talk. So sometimes it will be in acar for a half an hour, an hour, and I'd rather talk with the guest.Whereas I'm like, you cannot talk to me while I'm driving because I can onlyI'm just very can't multitask. But that's helpedso much, especially with parking. You know, sometimes youjust can't find a spot and then it's on them. We just get to getout and they'll figure it out. So, Yeah. They took you off, figure and
Joanne Lockwoodhost
park it and pick you up later. I I got it. Yeah. And I also
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
had had it was my birthday that day, and I'd also had quite afew drinks. And we're usually, like, have someonedesignated to drive us, and then the other 2 will fuck off a bit. ButI also had the epiphany in the morning of, like, I'm not gonna drink ona retreat ever. I'm responsible for these people's safety,and I really wanted to be sober when the car was justsliding back down the hill. I just was like, none of this is fun forme. So, yeah, those were, I guess, the biggest, mostterrifying travel story I have. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I ended up I I gave up drinking 3 years ago. I spent too muchof my life with alcohol controlling it. And I think part of mymy journey was to say, hang on a minute. I wanna do this raw.Yeah. Real me. Not not not induce or comatose mejust to take responsibility for everything I do and say, yeah, it's just got tothat point in my life where I thought I've drank too much. Now's the timeto start. Yeah. Yeah. I, I've never been one that really has
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
strength to excess ever a lot, like, in largeperiods of time, but I am I'm now 40. And,just having one cocktail just almost ruins me for thenext day. Like, I just sleep terribly. Andthen I'm just lethargic and kinda just don't feel well the next day.And so I, I I rarelyhave a drink. Oh, another friend of mine that's also a yoga teacher. We alwaystalk about, like, radical sobriety is when you startto, like, truly, like, love yourself and you're okay with all of your thoughts andyou're okay with not dimming down any of your joy or, makingany of the pain, you know, easier. It's just like being areal human being about all of your experiences and it and experiencesin them fully. So, yeah, that's kinda beenmy journey in the last couple of years. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
The radical surprise. I think the side of that to me that I've I've recognizedis that, actually, I don't wanna be here. I wanna gohome. I've had enough. You know? It's it's nice, and I don't feel guilty aboutit. It's I don't feel that. Or someone invites me, and I go, to behonest, I don't want it. It's okay. I don't want it. Really. I don'twant it. I appreciate you in life enough. Good for you. I don't I don'twanna come along and watch everybody else get drunk and then there you go. No.This is boring. So Yeah. Yeah. It's it's not that Iwanna exclude myself from these occasions. I just think, when you seeit sober, you think, what was I ever doing here? I was the one thatwas at the end of the night, I remember being in, Melbourne,Australia for speaking at a conference. And I was with a afriend of mine, and we were well known for burning whatever oilwe could find at whatever time of night. And the bar shut, we foundanother bar. And then and then we said, oh, look. We want another drink. Sowe found a gas station that sold beer. Wewent and bought beer in this gas station. We sat on a brick wall andjust drank beer at, like, 4 o'clock in the morning. I I looked at myselfand thought, what am I doing? What am I doing? Yeah. I was I thinkI was in Tallinn in in Estonia, and we managed to finda a fast food joint that did kebabs at 4 o'clock in themorning. They served beer or something. We're in this kebab shop drinking beer. It'slike, get out of this morning. Why do I do that? Why doI do that? Because she could. It was fun. Yeah. It
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
was there. Right? And Yeah. It's sort of once you get into it, you'relike, well, why would we stop now? It's sort of that, like,energy. But but I've been enjoying life more now that I've now
Joanne Lockwoodhost
got control over it rather than, on some sort of autopilot or orpredestined. How how am I gonna feel in the morning? Terrible.Now I know I'm gonna wake up in the morning feeling great again. Yeah.
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
Nice. So and I how do people get a hold of you?
Joanne Lockwoodhost
You do all these retreats. So, obviously, you've got your own business that goes fortreats. You then you also an organizer for other people. Yeah. So if you'reif you're a if you're a budding retreat organizer, howdo they get ahold of you? Or if you if you wanna just check-in andexperience one of yours. Yeah. Money making retreats.com,
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
if you wanna just book a quick 30 minute consult, it's free.You'll know immediately if we're a good match or not or if you don't likeme. And then retreats that don't stock.com if you wanna go on one ofour retreats, but we only have one spot left for you to retreat with usthis year. We only have one spot left to Iceland. Italy's sold out andyeah. But we'd love to have you. One more. Iceland's awesome. I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
remember I was in Iceland, 1998,99. I think it was about then. And we stayed in this hostelin the middle of nowhere. And I don't know if it if anyone's listening, Idon't know if you know about Iceland has this culture of sagas. And they haveall these people from ancient years, and what they used to do is gettogether and tell each other stories, which are sagas with it's like a bitlike our Robin Hood or whatever, sort of stories.Most these places had had a natural hotspring Yeah. Where people go and dive into. We were in this
Joanne Lockwoodhost
hostel in the middle of nowhere, and we had loads of whisk loads of vodka.We just had bottles everywhere, but I'd load about 30 or 40 of us. Andso I sit up. There's a hot spring or hot tub outside. So we weall piled in it. About 10 of us, all sitting there around the edgewith our feet into the middle, passing the beer around. And then, someone camesecurity guard came flying out and sort of screaming at us. It was a nationalmonument. This was the the hot springhot spring associated with one of the leading sagaaficionados, a guy called Snorri. It's a Snorri'shot spring. We didn't speakIcelandic and well, not we had a couple of Icelandic friends with us, and itwas kinda like we all kinda left sheepish and sort of stuck it back inthere, but we were we were all stark naked in this hot spring. That ain'tan ancient monument, but Hey. What? They left it unguarded.
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
Gosh. The story. So Iceland's a beautiful country.It is beautiful, and also the middle of nowhere kinda describes the majorityof it. It's straight away. I mean, the the the geysers, the,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
the Blue Lagoon, Yeah. These are places. We we even didthey took us to, the glacier, and then they got the big donuts,and we were slide down the glasses on the donuts. Yeah. It was a lotof fun for a week, and, we skidooed across theglasses. And I remember they said to us, make sure you keepin single file because if you're not careful, you could go down a crevasseor something Yeah. In the snow. Of course, every time the, theguide face the front again, we all spread out trying to overtakeeach. He turned around, and we go, oh, we're back in the middle again. Oh,we're back on the outside. And it yeah. And then someone told the story. Hesaid, yeah. People actually do fall down crevasses where the the snow is, youcan't see the can't see the gap. Yeah. We felt lucky to survivethere. That would have been a serious error, that would.
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
Yeah. Lucky. And that it's been absolutely fantastic
Joanne Lockwoodhost
having a chat with you. And, I think we used the effort at least 4or 5 times in there, which is a not bad for one of my episodes.So yeah. No. I really enjoyed you. A lot of fun, and I if II I would definitely look you up. And I've gotta do a retreat sometime, butobviously not this year. It would be great. It would be great. Energy to
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
host something like that. So yeah. Well, I'll make sure I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
put all of your links into the, the show notes. And, and ifanyone wants to get in contact with you, do what I did? Just track youdown online and say, do you wanna be a guest of my show? And yousaid, hey. Why not? Let's do it. Thank you for having me here. It's
Anna VanAgtmaelguest
really been a pleasure. I appreciate it. Thank you.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
As we bring this conversation to a close, I want toexpress my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, forlending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing toInclusion Bites, and become part of our ever growingcommunity, driving real change. Share this journey withfriends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voicesthat matter. Got thoughts, stories, or avision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
and let's make your voice heard. Until next time. Thisis Joanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to returnwith more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire,and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive worldone episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.
In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood welcomes Anna VanAgtmael for an invigorating discussion titled "Fearless Connections, Bold Journeys." They dive into Anna's transformative journey from a successful career in laboratory medicine to becoming the founder of Wandering Roots, an organisation dedicated to empowering women through adventure retreats. Anna reveals the deeply personal and professional milestones that led her to this change, highlighting how taking risks can inspire authentic connections and fierce living. Join Joanne and Anna to explore the essence of stepping out of one’s comfort zone and the extraordinary benefits it brings. Anna VanAgtmael is a trailblazer who has dedicated her career to building supportive and transformative environments for women. As the founder of Wandering Roots, she organises adventure retreats worldwide, blending her love for travel with her passion for helping women unlock their potential. Anna's journey began in laboratory medicine where she successfully built and managed a laboratory before an unexpected neck surgery prompted her to reconsider her path. This epiphany led her to create spaces for women to pause, reflect, and realign with their life's purpose. Her unstoppable drive to transform lives is rooted in her own experiences, making her a compelling advocate for living boldly and authentically. During the conversation, Anna discusses the importance of addressing fears and taking managed risks to achieve personal growth. She explains how her retreats offer women the chance to disconnect from daily responsibilities and dive into experiences that challenge and invigorate them. Joanne and Anna touch on the value of being surrounded by supportive communities and how shared adventures can lead to profound personal insights. Anna also breaks down her strategy for balancing the excitement of entrepreneurship with the practicalities of running a sustainable business, offering listeners invaluable advice on navigating their own bold journeys. One key takeaway from this episode is the empowering notion that stepping out of your comfort zone can lead to immense personal growth and fulfillment. Anna’s journey from a structured corporate life to creating transformative retreats showcases the power of resilience and the rewards of authenticity. Listeners will be inspired to embrace their fears, take calculated risks, and pursue a life that resonates with their true selves. Tune into this episode for a boost of motivation to embark on your own bold journey and foster fearless connections.
The views and opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of Inclusion Bites, SEE Change Happen Ltd or Joanne Lockwood. This episode is shared for general interest and discussion; we accept no responsibility for the accuracy or completeness of any statements made.
