Sarah McCracken explores the power of authentic storytelling, reputation management, and strategic visibility in PR, highlighting how amplifying marginalised voices can shape societal change and foster genuine inclusion.
Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuaryfor bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood,your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion,belonging, and societal transformation. Everwondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone notonly belongs but thrives? You're notalone. Join me as we uncover the unseen,challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonatedeep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you'resipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let'sconnect, reflect, and inspire actiontogether. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversationtoo. Reach out tojo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk toshare your insights or to join me on the show.So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time toignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.Today is episode 157 with the title,Raising Voices, Shaping Change. And I havethe absolute honor and privilege to welcome Sarah McCracken.Sarah is an award winning PR and communication specialist,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
empowering women and diverse voices to raise their profiles andcreate meaningful change. And when I asked Sarah to describe hersuperpower, she said she said that it is helping othersfind confidence in their visibility and voice.Hello, Sarah. Welcome to the show. Hello, Jo. Thank you
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Sarah McCracken
so much for having me this afternoon. Oh, it's absolute
Joanne Lockwoodhost
pleasure. And, for the accent, I'm guessing you're forthe Emerald Isle somewhere in there. Yes. Indeed. I
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Sarah McCracken
am in County Down, Northern Ireland, and we're about maybe 25miles south of Belfast. So nice nice and handy. And, you know, if I'm goingfurther south, we're maybe about an hour and twenty minutes from Dublin, so I reallyhave the best of those worlds here. Beautiful. My wife and I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
went on a a holiday to Dublin in the summer, and we drove north tothe because they don't have national trust in Dub in in Southern Ireland, in TheRepublic Of Ireland. So we had to drive across the border to Northern Ireland tofind a national trust property, which we visited. It was quite high. A a trekfrom County Cowan, but, yeah, we were determined to find a national trust property tovisit and, yeah, had a good time. And I've been to Belfast a fewtimes, and I've got happy memories of going to Newfernard,which can't be far from here. You're never far from anywhere
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Sarah McCracken
here, to be honest. But, yes, next time you're over then, we'll have to meetup and get a week of tea. Yeah. That sounds great. Sounds great. If you're
Joanne Lockwoodhost
listening to this and you're wondering why my voice sounds a little different to usual,I think I've got a bit of a throat thing going on. So every sooften, my voice cuts out. So please bear with sure. I'll be fine.As a I've got strep cells. I've got herbal tea in front of me,so I'm sure we cope. So SarahSarah, what makes you tick? You know, why do you do what you do? Youknow, you're in in PR, but why does visibility,diversity, inclusion resonate with you somuch? But but the more I did, the more I headed towards, like,
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Sarah McCracken
the PR and marketing side of things, and I just absolutely love it. Iget such a buzz out of, you know, seeing things in the media, preppingspokespeople, seeing you know, prepping people to go on podcast, but it whatever ithappens to be. Just the more I worked within sort of thecommunication sector, you know, the more I was able to tocreate that change. So I've worked in the health caresector, the environment sector. I worked for a political party. Once upona time, I worked in education as well as working for businesses andentrepreneurs. The more I worked in that, the more I could see how communicationscould create change, particularly around campaigning.So, I mean, many years ago, you could smoke in public workplaces, in NorthernIreland, obviously, right across The UK. And in02/2006, the charity I worked with at the time was involved in the smoke freeNorthern Ireland coalition and that campaign to bring in legislation to ban smoking inpublic places. And that was kind of my first kind of we can do thiskind of moment, you know, when you're there at a speech and the secretary ofstate is making these announcements, and you've got your your clients from from the charitywith you. You and the stakeholders of people are gonna be really impacted for thebetter as a result of this, and it was just brilliant to be part ofthat. So, yeah, since then, I've worked on other campaigns most recentlyworking on the campaign to bring in climate change legislation in Northern Ireland, whichwas brought in now full of years ago, and my team at the charity Iworked with at the time worked really hard on that as well. Oh, sounds really
Joanne Lockwoodhost
interesting. I love the idea of alpaca farm. Somereason, my my daughter keeps a couple years ago,she she bought me a a present, which was taking the alpacas for awalk, and I've I've got a little alpacas to see over there. But,yeah, it's, is that an alpaca jumper you're wearing atthe moment? We we'd go to shows and, you know, we'd have them on the
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Sarah McCracken
stand, and I'd be talking to people like yourself who just love alpacas.Never took one for a walk, so I'm not sure that would have ended terriblywell, but they are very docile. Because this is getting on to a whole otherpodcast episode here, but they're they're very amenable. They're very docile. They do make goodpets. They're probably easier to manage than sheep. So they're you know, people doabsolutely love them. Yeah. You're right. We've got a bit off topic
Joanne Lockwoodhost
there. They've versed in all packets. Yeah.So PR. I mean, I'm I'm a great believer thatorganizations need authenticity intheir in their brand, their values, their messaging. And a lot, II guess, is is PR trying to aligninternal who do we think we are versus the external public.Who do they think we are and trying to get that alignment of messaging, isn'tit? That that's not always easy. No. No. It's not. And, you know, when
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Sarah McCracken
I'm doing PR training, I'm always sortof tell telling people or working with them to understandthat, you know, if you have a really shoddy reputation, no amount of PRis gonna help that. You will get found out. So it is, like you said,about aligning what are your business goals with what youwant to project in the public domain and making sure that those are aligned. But,you know, n is n is n is n dodgy, n is n underhand. You'reyou're gonna get caught out. I I do have an issue with the word spin.Do you know that that that doesn't help when people refer to PR people asyou spin doctors, particularly in the in the political sphere. But, it is about workingreally hard just to find out what it is. What is that change you're tryingto make in the world and breaking that down and working out what communications? Whocan you engage with? What is it you want to say, and how might yousay it to your target audience just to to create that change or raise thatprofile or increase that visibility? The spin that you're referring to there, I suppose,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
is is is crafting a message in a positive light, I suppose, is the,the translation of the word spinner. It could be, but, again,
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Sarah McCracken
you've referred to that authenticity. Again, I struggle with the word authentic because it soundslike you're trying too hard. So for me, you know, if I'm working, if I'mcoaching with individuals, it's about how to be yourself and just bringforward all the really the good things about what you do and what you sayand just trying trying to emphasize that rather than be something thatyou're not because because that could be really difficult as well. But, yes, be beingauthentic is key. Being yourself, I do love a bit of LinkedIn content, I haveto say, and I I will equally post about PR today, and I willpost about my chickens tomorrow because because because that's that's who I happen to be.I must do an alpaca post actually, overdue one of those. Walking with alpacas.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I think that's the title of a book. I was like, yeah. I have toauthor that one. So when you're when you're working with organizations,you know, we're trying to avoid the word spin. We're trying to avoid the wordsauthenticity or authentic. Where do organizations gowrong? I mean, I think we've implied that, sometimes what happensis they try and pretend to be what they're not.How do you encourage them to to move past that and be honest oror actually change, or actually change their output?
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Sarah McCracken
Yeah. I I think the first step for me is about recognizing what PR actuallyis. PR is about managing your reputation. It is about engagingwith your stakeholders so that is speaking with them as well as listening to whatthey have to say. So it it sits alongside your marketing andadvertising mix. So marketing is clearly about selling stuff as as isadvertising. So it is different to that. But in terms of, you know,working with the businesses, it's about just trying to identify what is it is they'retrying to achieve and how can communications help that. So we've got all themarketing going on, and you've got the adverts and the Facebook stuff.But equally, who do you need to be listening to? What kind of messagesdo you want to create about your your product business or service that you needto be speaking to your audience about? And it could be be trying to workwith a politician to bring about legislative change, or it could beabout working with an individual who just wants to, you know, get thatconfidence to raise their profile and visibility and just the principles are thesame. You know, what's the outcome you want to achieve and then working through howwe might achieve that. You said you said that marketing's all about selling stuff I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
can hear. Yeah. Every marketing person out, they go, no. We're more just sellingstuff. We're here to create a brand and position the brand and Absolutely. Brandvalues. And that will help sell stuff, I think.
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Sarah McCracken
I I actually did a a talk last week to some marketing students, and II I did I did ask them, you know, what was their take on marketing.So we're very forthcoming, to be honest. But, yes, I do love working with mymarketing colleagues. And and, again, with complimentary skills, which is reallyimportant as well. So when you are developing that overall, you know,communications plan, if you like, there will be a marketing element to it. There willbe a PR element to it. So the two go really well hand in hand.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
At large extent, PRs are a bit harder to to naildown and look at ROI, isn't it? You arejust literally throwing information out there. You're you're issuing press releases. You'reissuing position papers and statements.Journalists, you got cat stuck up tree is not worthy of printing itin news. It's gotta be shock horror. You're always going for something that init's a headline. It's challenging, isn't it? BecausePR doesn't work. It's just all it's gotta be different.
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Sarah McCracken
Absolutely. But, again, PR is so much more than just thatmedia aspect to it. But, I mean, I I do love the the mediawork. I deliver a lot of, you know, how to write a press release training.So we're always talking about what is the news story that we're trying toget out there. Like you said, you know, is it just another cat stuck upa tree? Now maybe it's it's an escaped lynx up a tree. That would makea really good story. So it's just understanding, you know, what what what's the humaninterest You know, is it topical and timely? Like, we had that massive storm acouple of weeks ago. So many stories in circulation about that.Just making sure it's it's, yeah, of value to the mediaoutlets listeners as well as trying to get it in front of ofyour audience as well. But, yeah, media work is brilliant. Love it.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
You're you're trying to come at it from a wrong. You're trying to fetch humaninterest out of out of whatever you're saying,to to engage me in some way positively ornegatively, if if you're looking for that.You're you're trying to get me to you get me to pay attention to somethingis kind of the the mission, is it? Absolutely.
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Sarah McCracken
So if if we focus just on press releases, so thethe the Trist test as I call it, is is your story topical andtimely? You know, is it really relevant to the journalist, to thenewspaper, as as well as to your audience? You know, just because you think it'sgood, doesn't make it newsworthy. Is it unique?If you know yourself from scanning the headlines, you know, it it's newthings that that really get the headlines that, get the stories. Andthen also, is it, is there a human interest to it aswell? It's always, you know, triumph of a tragedy.Do you know who has been affected by this? So you might have, aninitiative that's going to help 10,000 people secure a newmedical treatment. May not that's just brilliant. Or you might havesomething, you've received an investment of x tens of thousandmillions of pounds to produce a new product that's going tosave whatever it is. Those are all things then that will feed into your story.So so, yes, when it comes to the media, it's about making sure yourstory is newsworthy and then understanding where you're going to place it. So aBBC approach is very, very different to a local newspaper approach, which is very differentthan to a podcast approach. But the principles then are still the same. Have yougot something of benefit to that outlet and their target audience?
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So we're living in a world where diversity, equity,inclusion, DEI, it's going through a bout of bad PR, isn'tit? It's become a very toxic term. And I I'd almost say thatthe the right wing anti woke brigade have kind ofstolen a bit of a march on on DEI andtoxifies that as a brand. And that'sprobably happened over the last couple of years more rapidly,the last two or three months is from what I've seen in the in thepress and the papers. How do they how do they how do they manage todo that so softly or so overtly? It'd be like Do you know they're they're
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Sarah McCracken
happy to make statements that are incorrect? They're happy to makestatements that they know are going to offend people. So maybe just maybeon the lower left hand side, shall we say people are maybe more repicent tooffend? Because because we know, you know, what happens if you get language wrongand how how upset people will be over that. You know, we know the potentialimplications if if if we inadvertently do something thatisn't gonna land well. So so maybe there's a bit of overthinking there. But fromwhat I can see, like you said, from the news agenda at the minute is,it's just it's free for all, and peopleare saying what they want, which is just not necessarily true.And then we're losing all the the the fact checkers as well off social mediaplatforms, which is quite frightening in itself. Because then where do where do Igo to get facts verified? Where do my children go who who aren't asnew savvy? You know, if they're reading stuff on socials, they're not on socials yet,but they will be soon. But how do we help young people even understand thedifference between this is factually correct and this is just a load ofnonsense. Yeah. Yeah. I hear you. But it's how do you you argue
Joanne Lockwoodhost
back against this, if you like, negative PR onslaught? Because as yousay, people just say what they want without anypunches almost, just just putting this out there. So if you're if you're hearingnegative PR against you or about your organization, about what you believe in,direct confrontation, is is that is that the tactic or puttingout a myth busting? Or How would you suggest? It's really, really
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Sarah McCracken
difficult. I mean, let let's let's be realistic about it. There there's anargument that if you are then to say, oh, so and so saidx, y, and zed, and here's why that's incorrect, You're actually givingcredibility to what they have said that's incorrect because you're repeatingit. So you need to think really carefully in and around that.My own approach should be not to pick, a public fight, particularly,like, over Twitter or x. Do people even still use that? I am off it.But, again, it's understanding where's the benefit of getting into a public disputeversus is it, you know, defamatory, libelous, in which case that's gonna be a courtcase. But it's just knowing what your options are. But in terms of that mythbusting, yes, there there's a need to start, I think, to lookreally carefully at what the messaging actually is andwho we're trying to target and how that message is getting out there as well.So it's maybe not a direct confrontation, but it's it's certainly upping the gamein terms of getting those messages out there. Maybe it is through TikTok. Maybeit is through another social channel, but I really just being as bold,shall we say, as as the other side, and just really starting to takeaction then to to get the messaging right. There are some organizationsout there who do do fact checking as we know and myth busting. I mean,Lynn is an agency based in Cardiff, actually. They work globallyto try and counter some of those myths, and disinformation,particularly around you. They they work through COVID. They've done some onclimate change, as well. So there there are good people out there trying to dothis, but for an individual organization, you need to weigh up thepros and cons. You know, how is it gonna impact on your reputation? If youdo take this particular stand, How will it impact on your reputation if you takethat particular stand? And just working through the pros and cons of each andgetting that balance and then having a way of doing it that that youcan sleep well at night knowing that you have done your best to stand upfor what you believe in. What I'm here what I'm here, I think, saying there
Joanne Lockwoodhost
is tell your own story. Don't necessarily engage insomebody else's story. Keep being the best version of you, yourorganization you can be, and not and nottry and challenge each individual statement because all you'll endup doing is get caught up in denials and counter denialsand giving them the ammunition to come back on you with it yet another wildstatement, I guess. And it's exhausting if you start that. And
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Sarah McCracken
what you've just described as as being authentic, it's it's being yourself. You know, thisis who I am and having that confidence to you. And that can be reallydifficult as well, just to start to say, no, this is what I believe, andthis is what I stand for. So again, it's it's how do you do itso that you know that you can make a difference inthe world, that you can bring your colleagues with you. How can you build thatmovement? How can you mobilize people to come onto your site as well? But, yeah,you do you and do it really, really well. And then again, becauseyou're being yourself and because there's no gray areas, then then it's really hard tostart to, you know, not attack the person up. That's not right the free phrasing,but it's it's really hard then to start to pick holes in what it isthey're saying if it's, you know, if it's evidence based, if it's factually correct. What
Joanne Lockwoodhost
worries me at the moment is that there is no filter, and some ofthese statements are being green lighted by themainstream media politicians.And it's really hard sometimes to actually get thefacts and the truth out of these. You know, if you're if you're sat thereas a a person in the street looking up this,there's a lot of lot of stuff going on at the moment, which is, youknow, whether we talk about vaccines, climate change,gender, all these kind of things, all all in the news at the momenthave become polarizing people, reach the extremes. Yeah. So,
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Sarah McCracken
again, it's understanding who's your target audience. Who do you want tospeak to about these things? So rather than picking a fight in the media, Isaid, I love campaigning. I love the public affairs side of things. So so maybeas a business or an organization, you're doing some really good work and you shouldbe engaging with your local politician no matter where they are in The UK oreven across the world. You know? So if, you know, say there was a debatecoming up in Westminster on gender or violence againstwomen or whatever, you know, area of interest that, that yourorganization has, I would be encouraging you to, to write a briefing,to be engaging with your local MP, to be engaging with the people who aregonna be speaking to this motion and informing them of the actual facts of thematter. And then that, that will help them because I would suggest themajority of politicians, they don't want to stand up and say the wrong thing. Theydon't want to be then slated in the media the next day by citing factsand figures that are incorrect because it does it does you know, that's still apossibility. So, again, you can take action that way. So it'sit's it's not into the media. It is direct into the people who will bespeaking about an issue that that affects what it is that you do. So that's
Joanne Lockwoodhost
that's part of lobbying. So what you're doing is you're giving a position paper,statement of facts, evidence, citationsdirectly to a politician or to an organization. Say, this is ourtruth. We want you to process this and form anopinion from it. Yep. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's that's what thepeople doing the negatively are doing, isn't it? They're creating the same the same information.So it's it's counteracting it with your story, not arguing someone else'sstory. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I find that politicians, they want to be
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Sarah McCracken
well informed. They they generally want to engage with, you know, charities,community groups, you know, people, you know, in in whatever spherethey happen to be. I have an example in some ofthe public affairs training that I do do, and it's about this the amount ofspend that, oil companies, spend on lobbyingon climate change. I mean, it's tens of millions of dollars. So, again, like youjust said, the other side is lobbying away. So there'snothing to stop us from doing that as well. You know, we're voters. We're citizens.MPs work for you. So, again, get in there and start to helpthem understand the challenges that that you're facing and you don't be needing thosetens of millions of dollars either. You can go direct to them through theirconstituency, through their Westminster offices. It's all open access,and just go for it. Write them a letter, send them a letter. That's theone. Invite them out to your to your community group, you know, invite them intoyour premises, sit down and have a cup of tea and a chat about whatthe challenges are and just help move the conversation forward. Oh,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
yes. It's all about what I say. The facts don't change people.So it's trying to cross that bridge between theemotion and the logic, isn't it? And that's that's the challenge we have.Because if if the facts change me, I I wouldn't drive too fast. I wouldn'teat red meat. I'd be go for a run every day. I'd be healthy. Butthe reality is I haven't got the emotional connection with some of those things.That's how does PR bridge thatemotion versus logic gap? That comes back to how you tell your
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Sarah McCracken
story, your your storyteller. So, yeah, like you said, ifI send you, you know, a two page briefing document, if you've written all thebullet points about the issues, yeah. I'll, I'll skim read it. I might pickup the headline and that'll be it. But if I sit down with somebody orif I was to brief a spokesperson to go in and have a conversation witha journalist, with a politician, whoever it happens to be, and have them telltheir story, then then that's gonna have a much bigger impact. So say you'reworking on an issue in connection with, young carers, which isan an issue I've I've worked on previously. You know, you need to get theyoung people telling their story about the impacts that caring fortheir their family member has on them. And that is so much more powerful thanthan you or I telling their story on on their behalf. Yeah. I think we're
Joanne Lockwoodhost
seeing a lot of stuff in the media at the moment around toxic behavior inthe workplace. Obviously, we had a bigpush. Sara Everard, Me Too movement. These kind of butwe're seeing some more recent, displaysof toxicity coming out. How do peopleknow they're not alone? How how can we how can we get people totrust that they will be heard? Because that's that's part of the problem as well,isn't it? Trust. Absolutely. And,
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Sarah McCracken
again, knowing that other people are going through what you have gone through,I think is really important. So the first step for me and I I havefaced some very toxic, workplace environments. And the first step for me is alwaystelling somebody. So it might be a trusted colleague or it might besomebody completely unconnected with work. Could be a WhatsApp, could be,you know, whatever it hap a cup of tea in a chat, whatever it happensto be. But once you speak it into existence, Iguarantee you'll find out that somebody else is going through something similar. And it's bytalking it through, then you can start to understand what your potential optionsmight be. I think that the me too movement is,you know, particularly interesting because every single day there is yet another story.There is yet another article out there of something that hasclearly gone wrong somewhere that I I use the phrase hiding in plain sightquite a lot. You know, the perpetrators are hiding in plain sight. So again, themore we talk about it, the more we can share experiences and the more thatwe can mobilize and and come together to tackle whatever the issue happens tobe. In the paper again is, a a
Joanne Lockwoodhost
previously senior royal family member who, for whateverreason, seems to keep having anegative story about them in relation topast acquaintances, people who are proved to be,mind my words here, involved with sexualoffenses potentially in the past. So is there a danger sometimesthat we we think we can put aveneer over the story and hope that people are gonna wash withit? But the reality is if if you don't go deep enough and cut hardenough and and expose yourself deep enough the first time, it couldbe death by a thousand cuts. People are gonna come back on you. They're gonnakeep digging and digging and digging and until they really get to the bone. AndI think that's what we're seeing with this particular individual at the moment.It's, they weren't authentic. Even if you don't like that word.
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Sarah McCracken
Maybe they were. Yeah. They were lying. Maybe
Joanne Lockwoodhost
well, maybe that's a strong word. Yeah. They they weren't telling the whole truth. Let'sput it that way. Oh, they're telling their version of it. Yeah. I mean, for
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Sarah McCracken
a journalist, that's the story that keeps on giving. But but I think,put putting that to one side, I I think this is where the value ofunderstanding PR and communications really comes in, you know, as as a business, asan individual. And again, back to the thing, if you're doing something wrong,you're gonna get found out. So working with individuals who are, you know,nice people. If you have somebody on your side who understands the media landscape,then they can they can advise you on, is it a good idea to doan interview like that one that we're talking about? Probably not. But clearly, they'renot listening, and they've gone ahead and done it. So, again, it's it's working withour trusted comms adviser as to where be the best place to tell my story.So it could be a news night story. It could be in the Guardian. Itcould be on a on a podcast somewhere. But, again, having somebody on yourside help prep for it, is also useful. And, again, mediatraining isn't about learning how to lie on camera. It's it's about how to answerthe questions. It's about how to come across as the type of person that youreally are to the listeners. It's helping you bridge between the awkward questions thatthat that are gonna be pending. And if you've done something wrong, front it up.You know, you can admit your mistake and you can come out better than,making up stories and talking nonsense. That's getting ahead, control of the
Joanne Lockwoodhost
narrative, owning your story again, isn't it? It's kinda what you're saying there.
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Sarah McCracken
Oh, absolutely. And it's back to what is it you're trying to achieve. If something'sgone wrong, it it it's gone wrong. That's where your crisis comes come in comesinto play. It is gonna affect your reputation, as an individual or as anorganization. So again, it's just understanding how things workand you will come through it. But again, it's how then you then in inthe future then start to rebuild that reputation, rebuild that visibility, in apositive manner as well. Yeah. I suppose in my experience, when things have gone
Joanne Lockwoodhost
wrong, they go worse. The more you try and dig,don't they? And I I think especially when you're very much in the publiceye, there are people with a vested interest to keep digging. And I think that'sthat's the problem we find is that you're better off justtelling the truth, resigning, running away, hiding for a bit, and thencoming back again. Obviously,it's not a career. Career limiting, but but yeah.You It was a genuine individual trying to create that change in the world. Are,
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Sarah McCracken
are we then worrying too much about the consequences when, you know, those withmuch thicker skins who are now running other countries, shall we say, are justcarrying on putting out those incorrect messages.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. Talking about people with tics getting running other countries. It's it's incredible what's goingon at the moment where it said they seem to be obliviousor consciously oblivious to,messages going out. They're so focused on their version of the truth. And that, Ithink you've mentioned that just now. It's your perspective. It's your version of the truth.If you get, if you really believe it and become invested in it, then yousay it with confidence, don't you? And I think you're not willing to listen toother people's versions. And, again, you're controlling the narrative.You're not negotiating. You're you're owning that that stance, I think. It's it'squite a powerful technique, isn't it? Although I'm not not saying I advocate it, butit's a powerful technique. Yeah. And I mean, what can we learn from that? So
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Sarah McCracken
if others maybe with a moreaspect to their personalities who who wanted to create positive change in the world, ifif they started to take on some of those characteristics and be really forcefuland forthright in what they want to say, would that help those messages,land better? Might have to give it a go. But again, it's not getting intothat public argument. Who do we need to be targeting? How do youreally sort of hone in on who you need to be speaking to and thenbuilding from the ground up? I think certainly that's, you know, if you can mobilizethe masses on your side as well, that starts to help as well. So itcould be a hundred people, it could be five people, could be a million people,whatever it happens to be to start to to build that change that thatthat we need. The problem with that position is it's
Joanne Lockwoodhost
quite a privilege to have that that that communications power.People were talking about, you know, we're touching on EDI, DNI,diversity inclusion here. And one of the challenges we find wherepeople are marginalized, they are voiceless. They don't have theaccess to these rooms, these people, these channels.So often the PR goes or the messaging goesundefended because no one's listening. They can't get the message out.
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Sarah McCracken
Yeah. And that's something that shouldn't be happening. I mean, in termsof the media, in terms of politicians, you know, any singleperson can start to build a relationship with ajournalist or a politician. But again, it's understanding that that that isan option open to you. So I suppose there's an education piece there as well.You does it start within a community? Does it start with with within schools totry and educate our young people better as to, you know, they they do havethe power in their hands, but it's it's how we get them to understand howthey can use it then for the benefit. But but you're absolutely right. It's it'speople with no voice or marginalized voices are struggling to getthat messaging out there in terms of the change we need to see. So whatcan you and I in a position of privilege do to help them? And thatthat's part of what I'm about. That's why I would run master classes on howto raise your visibility. You know, it's why I'm trying to put content out ofmy socials to really help people get the basics of PR, andthen, hopefully, they will take that then and start to use it for themselves.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. I agree. And that's what we gotta do. We gotta, believe we're notalone, team up. But the danger the danger I foundis that and I I've had it to me. I I do a lot ofmedia stuff. I even go on GB News occasionally and, I put myput myself in the lion's den and get abused by theguest and placenta sometimes. And a word that keeps beingthrown at me is I'm an activist. So juststart throwing that word at somebody. It creates astereotype. It creates a devaluation of my view. It implies thatI'm fighting and angry and protesting.I'm mobilizing. All these kind of words spring to mind, andthe imagery suddenly pops into your head. This person'sa a thug or whatever. There's all the nice people. They're wearing suitsand ties. They're reasonable. They're lovely people. An activistcomes us up some sort of a narcic person, I think. That's the dangersometimes of creating a a mob, even even awell mannered mob. That that's an interesting
S
Sarah McCracken
one. I said, are you gonna be throwing, you know, tomato sip over the MonaLisa for just stop oil? You know, that that that's an activist.Interestingly enough, I am currently working for the Climate Coalition at theminute, for great big green week, which is taking place at the June. And thetheme is let's swap together for good. So it's how can how can we, Idon't know, swap fossil fuels for solar panels? How can we as a communitycome together to, you know, develop? And I soar intobeautiful pollinator rich, area that that people canenjoy. And it's exactly that. The people participating in that are notactivists in that sense of the word of, you know, I with with placards.They're they're quietly getting on with it. They're quietly making thechanges to target, climate change and and improve nature.So so that's exactly right. How do we how do we develop the messaging aroundthat? How do we create that story of what they're doing to show thatanybody can make change, and you don't have to be tuning yourself to the brilliance.You can if you want. No. You know, I'm not standing your way. No. I'llbring you a cup of tea while while you're stood there. I'm not letting whoeverit is through. You know, it's it's it's there's millions of people outthere who are quietly getting on with it, quietly making the changes that we needto say. And again, how do we celebrate that? How do we find those stories?How do we get those into the public domain? Because those could be pretty powerful.And I think it's back to what we already talked about. How do we, dowe start to speak it into existence and start discussing these things with each other?And then you say, oh, yes. They're doing that. And I'm doing that too. Andwe're doing it together. You things then will start to build momentum from that. As
Joanne Lockwoodhost
you talk about climate change, Alan, as you're talking, I'm thinking, Greta Thunberg.And how are the negative stereotypes around her, being an activist, beingyoung, being autistic, suddenly, what doesshe know? She's a scruffy little teenager sitting on the street with aplacard where we've got all these scientists who know far more, and she'sjust causing trouble. And I think I was watching, EdMiliband on the news last last, and there's negative stuff coming out abouthim. It's all trying to government need to getrid of him because he's crazy, and he's he's come up with all these harebrainedclimate ideas. It's like so you can see that the lobby groups are outthere counter briefing these positive green energy,positive sustainability stories. And you sometimes haveto lean back and think, what are they trying to sell me?What's this story trying to sell me? It's trying to sell me. Oil is good.Fossil fuels are good. Power is good. Incumbency isgood. This new found stuff is badbecause it's not not what we make money out of. And it's, protectionismabout the status quo some of it, isn't it? That's a very cynical and probably
S
Sarah McCracken
very accurate way way of looking at things, I would suggest. Yeah. But it'sit's back to what we talked about. Your negativity sells. Do you know there's nopoint in running a story about, oh, how great it is with three bees inthe garden? But yeah. And, again, for for a communication specialist, it'sit's it's how we take positive stories and turn them into something thatwe can pitch the media, that we we can create content around and geton the socials and get out of that bubble of of of negativity.So, yeah, there is a skill to it. I mean, anybody can do PR. I'mhappy to teach you the basics, but it's, you know, by building up those relationshipswith journalists, it's by building up relationships with with our politicians that we can reallystart to make the meaningful change that that we need to see. Of course, we
Joanne Lockwoodhost
live in a world of, social media. We're all journalists. We're allpublishers. We all have access. It's it's it's just learning that you you can't havea voice, and you don't have to change the world. You just gotta change oneor two people and create create a movement. Yeah, be that activist if you wannabe an actress. But we don't have to be silent, do we?
S
Sarah McCracken
Absolutely not. And social media is is a gift in inthat sense. I mean, back in the day when I used to fax pressreleases, you know, when it was harder to get your story out there, we weall now have a direct line to whoever it is that we want to talkto. Now notwithstanding the algorithms and they keep feeding youcontent, you know, that they think you're going to like, there is a way outthere to to to get in touch with people to to create thoseprofiles, that movement, like like you just alluded to, which isabsolutely brilliant. I mean, there's a negative side to it as well. I did atalk last week to some masters students basically reminding them not topost nonsense on social media because it could really jeopardize their careers in the future.You know, which stories start to resurface. So there there's pros and cons to socials,but I I personally think the pros outweigh the cons, especially ifwe use it intentionally to educate, to inform, to buildconnections. And I've met so many really awesome people through socialmedia from all different spheres, all all different types of organizations. Soso there's so many people out there that are doing good things that we canconnect with. And, yeah, like you said, choosing your social media platform appropriatelycan really help take that story forward. We met on social media. We found it
Joanne Lockwoodhost
on Facebook somehow, don't we? So, yeah, it's, it's awesome people connect.That's brilliant. I think the word you picked up there was the intentionality orintentional. So you're not just shooting from the hip.You're being measured, intentional. You understand about theimpact over over and above your intent, what you're trying to get out ofit. It's when you go half baked and you're speakingfrom the emotion, from your amygdala kicks in, your vagus nerve kicks in, you kindayou're angry and feisty. And I wanna have I wanna tell you teachyou a lesson there. That's when it kind of goes a bit pear shaped.
S
Sarah McCracken
Potentially, yes. I'm smiling to myself here. You you know when you get an emailinto the inbox from maybe somebody in work and they've just wound you up thewrong way and you hit the reply instantly, you know, that that's when it cango pear shaped. Social media is an interesting one. And and and, yes, you know,as a as as a PR lead, you know, I would be advising you, youknow, not to respond to that comment immediately. It's maybe just wait and see.You know, is the story going to play out? Because when you do respond,with emotion, you might perpetuate the story. Whereas if you maybejust let it sit ten minutes, twenty minutes, twenty four hours, whatever it happens tobe, it it could just then fizzle out. And you'll definitely feel better when you'vegone away and made yourself a cup of tea and then come back to it.But it can be difficult, especially if people are attacking you personally.And and again, maybe there's different coping mechanisms when you look at them, which isjust not reading the comments. It's it's like old New Theater critics and you don'tdon't don't read the reviews after the first night. You know, should you be readingyour restaurant reviews? But you know what? If if people are attacking you, it's really,really hard. But again, so taking that deep breaths,moral high ground, and then coming back to it with a with an actual planof of how you might counter the story. I mean, if it's defamatory or libelous,you use a potential court case in your hand and you don't want to bejeopardized in that. Or if it's just low grade irritations, you maybejust have to choose to ignore it, which which is difficult. I've been thinking back
Joanne Lockwoodhost
to another recent story that where someone obviouslywas pausing and reflecting and the story just got worse while they were keeping quiet.It was the, former Archbishop of Canterbury, if I remember rightly.He, he came out, We stood up at the House of Lordsand joked and laughed. So completely inappropriate messaging, but you could seethe momentum building about you could see the trajectorywas, he's gonna end up resigning. And you wonder somehow whetherhe either wasn't listening to his advisers, or they were believing their ownPR that they could ride this out. But clearly, by the hour, itwas deteriorating. I think, well, it's only a matter of time now before he resigned,and then sure enough, he resigned. So that that's often the case for politicians aswell as where they're trying to cling on that or that orjust hoping that if they keep quiet and don't react, it will just blowover. But it doesn't, does it? Sometimes you you sometimes you have to put amessage out. Yeah. You have to put the message out there. But again,
S
Sarah McCracken
it's it's deciding what the best course of action is and there there's no rightor wrong answers. You know, maybe the archbishop did genuinely think he could he couldride this out. We don't know because we weren't party to to the discussions, butyou do see other cases like that, interview about the royal we discussedearlier, you know, clearly not listening to any advice whatsoever. And, youknow, I've even read stories from the journalist who who did the interview that, youknow, she basically said it was ill advised and they couldn't understandwhy he actually agreed to it, but there you go. They they got their theirstory on that, as well. Yeah. You you you want
S
Sarah McCracken
to listen to your advisors, but equally who's given you the advice if it's peopleyou've surrounded with because they say yes, that's not gonna help you in the longterm. If there might be independent with a different viewpoint, that could be potentiallyuseful for you, as well. And it's as well from a PR perspective, it's bytapping that overview of the wider news agenda. So it could bequite a small issue which then gets blown out of proportion orescalates to to something bigger because of of the wider news context.I mean, looking at the case, within the church and for the archbishop, Imean, that that is a story that you're we're seeing over and over and overagain. So there's still something wrong there that that needs to be fundamentally dealt with.But, yeah,other case studies out there of, you know, how he was advised or who wasadvised and and did they generally think it it would blow over?
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So you work predominantly with the business owners.I know you're passionate about having female led organizations aswell. How do you go about engagingwith them to start with? Or do you have a sort of kind of astep by step walk through about how you how you approach this? Is itabout trying to understand, you know, you must just a fact finding on their brand,their their values and things, I guess, at the beginning? Yes. I've I've a number
S
Sarah McCracken
of different approaches. I mean, I've been working free time for myself sinceOctober 2024. I spent about a year and a half before that doing my ownPR, building my own profile, my own visibility, and starting to do some PRtraining, on the side, while I still had my day job. So thatthat all helped. So so now what I do a lot ofI spend a lot of time in LinkedIn. Never thought I would say that. Butactually, in terms of platform, it's it's very nice. There's there's nice people on it.I'm not saying a lot of the toxicity and negativity that we'd see on otherother platforms. So, I spent a lot of time trying tounderstand who I'm trying to talk to. My natural affinity is withwomen, with female business owners, with women who are trying to progress in their careers,and those working particularly in the comms industry. So, again, that's where I'mgravitating to at the minute. But equally, it's about understanding whatwhere where it is and how I can help them. So having done alot of work, through Women NPR in Northern Ireland, which I cofounded in02/2018, What was coming up when we just,spoke with the women there was they just lacked confidence. You know, they felt likeimposters. They felt invisible. And, again, they've they were havingchallenges, and they didn't realize that half the people in the room werefacing similar challenges. So again, it's how do I bring people togetherto talk those issues through, to know that they'reabsolutely flipping brilliant at what it is that they do and that I cansit with them and take through step by step then and just how to startto tell their own story in whatever sphere they happen to work in. Yeah. I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
think if I I I I've gone through my own impostersyndrome journey. I spent when I when I started this business eight ofit years ago, it took me a while to find a voice. I was alurker on on LinkedIn, on the platforms, and maybe theyou brave it and like a comment, and then you might put a little comment.They might put a bit more, then you might put a bit more, then youmight share something with a comment. And eventually, you think, hangon a minute. I need my voice here. I need to be the author. Ineed to own my own story now. It does take a while becauseyou're looking for approval early on. You want someone to validate you.Again, the imposter syndrome, the limiting belief. What about what do I know? What doI matter? Takes a real it's takes a journey to find thatvoice. Absolutely. And I've been there myself. It
S
Sarah McCracken
was a couple of years ago now. I got myself a wonderful career coach,because I wanted to move on from my role. It wasn't serving me. I wasn'tachieving what I wanted. And I I did a lot of work with themin terms of where I was going next. And and part of that was tostart to engage more on social media. I mean, I love writing. I
S
Sarah McCracken
do PR. I can write content till the cows come home, but Iremember physically thinking ill at the thought of I am now gonna writesomething and put it on LinkedIn. So I had overcome all that myself. And, yeah,it's it's a mindset. It's a limiting belief. And once somebody gives youthat little push to do it and you've done it, it's like, oh, the worldhasn't hasn't ended. So I hope I could be that little push for some peopleto start just to have that confident confidence to start maybe posting more content,whatever it happens to be, or, you know, pitching to a podcast or just,you know, cohesively or comprehensively looking at to how they canjust develop a plan to achieve what it is they they want to achieve.But yeah, I get imposter syndrome all the time. Like, let let's be realistic here.I I deliver. I was delivering a training course in public affairs and there wasthe next politician on the call and was thinking, why aren't you my guest speaker?Why am I why why why am I why are you here? So you thisall whizzes through your head and then you have a big smile. It's like, well,hello and welcome. How are you today? And then you have a conversation and youunderstand why they're there, and then you start to help each other out. But, yeah,we just have to keep working throughout. Yeah. I I used to have this thing
Joanne Lockwoodhost
about this podcast. I was I used to pitch it to people I knew.Easy targets. And then, I started going you know, we talkedabout earlier going onto Facebook, just posting into these Facebook groups, be aguest. Because I realized, you know, this is episode a57. You know, I've I've been doing this for fiveyears now. Five years I've been doing this podcast. I'm apodcaster. I think, yeah. I now identify as a podcast. And then before Iwas just like, now I don't know what I'm doing. There's always people out therewith big shows and big this and big that. What do I know? And thenhe realized that actually taking that first step, actually doingsomething makes you makes you're doing it. And you have to start owning it andyou need to get the momentum. And now I go on to LinkedIn and thinkthis person's I like their opinion. I like what they're saying. Let's just startdropping stuff into their inbox and DM ing them and saying, I think you're brilliant.I'd love to have a chat with you on my podcast. And all of asudden, people say, oh, okay. I'll I'll have a go at that. I've pitched acouple of people on Instagram who are kind of,I don't wanna be unkind. See this D list type, TVpersonalities who've been in drama shows, put that. And one of them actually engaged andwrote back and said, yeah, tell me more. Here's my email address.Write to me, and I'll see what I can do. Oh, yeah. Butso, of course, once you get start getting up up thealphabet towards the a list, you start building more credibility,don't you? You you then up yourself from being a a zed list interview, andI'm not saying you're a zed list. But you move into that kind ofb's and c's and d's, and then suddenly, they say, oh, whoelse has been on? Oh, they've been on it. And then they feel like they'rein the in the right zone as well. So you gotta try and create thatcredibility. Yeah. Fake it till you make it, if you like. But thattakes a bit of bit of backbone sometimes, doesn'tit? Yeah. And you you sit there thinking, should I send that should I send
S
Sarah McCracken
the email? What's what's the worst that's gonna happen? They're gonna say no is theworst, or they might just ignore you. But but either way, you've lostabsolutely nothing by by sending that request. Who wouldn't want to come on your podcast?Do you know? Brilliant. Yeah. I know. And but and and it's also like that.It's in a virtuous circle. It's, you know, you you do one interview and thenthat creates credibility. I mean, when I, looked intoyour podcast, Sam has been a former guest.He's just brilliant. And I, I'm involved in the Social Selling Academy, whichshe's involved in. So that immediately gives you credibility. I might what am I on?Lister? Anyway, that that immediately give you credibility for me to think, yes. No. II will go and speak to to Jo Jo on our podcast, which is justgreat. Oh, I remember now. You you sort of said I remember you you posted
Joanne Lockwoodhost
back saying, oh, it sounds good on. That sounds like a good podcast. So, yeah,it is. It's, that it comes back to whatSam talked about social selling. It's about creating that brand, that curiosity, and thatreputation of being consistent, isn't it? Yeah. So every little
S
Sarah McCracken
helps. And it's it does really frustrate me. You know, I would go in andtalk to a lot of business scripts or I would run webinars on visibility andand PR in general. And it it it is frustrating when people think, oh, Idon't like social media. I don't know what to do. And it's really not aboutyou. It's about you, your product, your business, your service. And social media is justa channel to get it out into the world. So once you kinda get overthat little ich, if you like, in your head, the next bit is how dowe create some content. And, again, people get stuck on what content can Icreate, you know, two minutes of conversation, and I'm just blown away bythe brilliance of people and the stories they have to tell, and then we cancreate content, around that? And then the next step is just, oh my goodness. Whatif nobody likes it? Also what? At least it's out in the domain. People willlove it. I can guarantee it. And then we just that's that first step. Andthen the next first step, and then the next first step after that. And beforeyou know it, you look back and look how far you've come. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I love that. It's as long as you're intentional and you're doing it from theright place, then having an opinion is what people want. They want your opinion. Theywant you to believe in something. And I, I, I always quote ChrisEvans, the broadcaster, when he said, you gotta be Marmite. Half of us gotta loveyou and half of us gotta hate you. Because that way you polarize your audienceand then you've got an audience where you're nothing to nobody or nothing toanybody. Nobody resonates with you. So you've really got to try and polarizeyour tribe or your people, Even if it's, even if it's just aminority tribe, whatever it is, know who you're, know who you're speakingto. And the people who aren't going to listen, don't worry about them. You wantto speak to the people who do this echo chamber. Let's keep, keep feeding theecho chamber. Well, I know people don't like me because they go onto Twitter andsearch my name. I feel sorry. There's a nurse with the same name, Joanne Lockwood.She does some great stuff, but, but, yeah, if yousearch for Joanne Lockwood, you'll see, I follow the toxic stuff about me. And it's,it's quite funny, some of it, because I don't do anything about it becauseit's all engagement. It all amplifies. It's all creating a message. Youknow, I look at my YouTube comments and, you know, everyone, everyone I knowshares, says each month. I bet there was positive reviews on my YouTube. I getthousands of toxic issues on my my YouTube. Lotsof down likes. And it's, it's just part of it. And I justlook at it and go, you've read it. You've taken part. You've engaged.You've amplified me. You've boosted it. That's fine. Go for it. Keep going.My job is done. You're proving my point. I love that.
S
Sarah McCracken
Yeah. They don't realize they're actually contributing to raising your profile in a positivesense. So yeah. Brilliant. Yeah. If I can become infamous in their circles, isn't
Joanne Lockwoodhost
they? Because there's various shades ofgray, isn't there, with people's negativity. Some people are followers.Some people are kind of on the fences. They're not quite sure. Some of thethe leaders, they were protagonists of the whole thing. So all I wanna I don'twanna talk to the protagonists, the people who are anti ant. I want to sortthe people who are kind of the undersiders. They want to find out more people,the laggards, if you like in that, the lurkers. I can engage withthem. And then they go, oh, I wonder what she's really on about. Yeah. Okay.Forget your ear. I can not, I've got opportunities. But yeah. If you neversay anything, how can people ever hear you? But think of the negativity
S
Sarah McCracken
as well it costs or the energy it costs to write that negativity.Do you know, imagine if if that kind of energy was channeled into something thatyou're doing something good or or being nice to somebody. I mean, gosh, the worldwould be a better place. We wouldn't be on this podcast discussing it.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
No. Well, I I get people who take the trouble to somehowwork out my address and write a letter to me and tell me how muchthey don't like me. Let alone emails. Yeah. I get,get all this stuff and it's like, well, fair play. You've done, you've done someresearch. You haven't just got the tweet back or something. You've, you'veactually found my website and you've gone to my info page. You foundmy email address in the contact me page And you've sent me an email. Ifyou actually type words, it's like, wow, I'm impressed. This is this isgood. So I'm I'm laughing at the letter writers because they've actually had to buy
S
Sarah McCracken
a stamp. It's cost for money. And they should have to buy a stamp.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. Of course, my public address is my accountants. My accountants are forwarding it onfor the love stamp. So, yeah, it's like two stamps. Keeping the post office going
S
Sarah McCracken
single handed here. Very good. It's like £3. Yeah.Boy, love it. But yeah. But I but I think some of that negativity, itit is also what causes reticence in new business owners, business leaders.You know, they're they're selling perfectly reasonable new products andservices. You know, it's not even gonna be something necessarily controversialfor for want of a better description. So there is just a apprehension of ifI do post content or if I promote what I'm doing, it's even, oh, peopleare gonna think, you know, who does she think she is? Do you know whodid you know, how would she know all that kind of thing? And again, that'sa confidence thing. That's something that's instilled in us from a, from a young agethat you shouldn't blow your own trumpet, that you shouldn't be singing your own praises.
S
Sarah McCracken
I'm over that in case you can't tell. And again, I want to then startto help other people, other women in particular, just, just have that confidence to dothat. And once they start, oh my goodness, they don't stop. It's absolutelyphenomenal to see. I get a nice email and saying, look, I read you're sayingI I watched your your YouTube video and I've won the other day from froma girl. And you know, I've watched a YouTube video. I've discussedit with my team and we're now going to implement some of the things that,that you said to do equally terrifying and brilliant, to be honest and terrifying thatthey've listened, but brilliant that I know it'll make a difference what they're about todo. So it is, it is nice to give that positive feedback, But it Itis. It's nice to be quoted, isn't it? Where people quote you, or they
Joanne Lockwoodhost
they bump into you six months later. So I've listened to this, and I readthat. You're a hero of mine. And you go,wow. Thank you. Thank you. Didn't know anyone for listening.Thank you. Yeah. That's the other thing. When you go on the radio sometimes and
S
Sarah McCracken
do do a broadcast, I've done a few of them for the variousorganizations I've worked with. And you think, I mean, we're having a chatty. You thinknobody's listening. So I've done a radio interview and then ten minutes later, I geta text or a phone call from somebody going, I just heard you on theradio. Somebody was actually, that's what did I say? Did it sound okay?But again, I can't undo what I've just said or spoken about, andthat's just the way it happens to be. Yeah. I get that
Joanne Lockwoodhost
sometimes when I'm I got I've done a few l LPC, NickFerrari type, and some other ones on an LPC. And and I Iget someone text me later. They go, oh, I was in my car driving here,and I was just having my my coffee and sitting in the canteen. And Ithought, I know that voice. It's like, so you get a little text message alittle bit. They say, oh, there are people out there. It's nice. It's nice. It
S
Sarah McCracken
is nice. It validates what you do. I think it validates you know, we talk
Joanne Lockwoodhost
about PR. You can be a bit thankless. You know, you feel like you're justblowing into the wind sometimes and hoping something sticks and lands. AndAnd when it does, it really is an ego boost. Ego is maybe the wrongword, but a a confidence boost maybe. Yeah. And you mentioned
S
Sarah McCracken
earlier about how do you measure the value of PR, you know, becauseobviously marketing ad spend, you can see all that. You can see a directlink into product sales because marketing is about selling stuff. Sorry to all themarketers listening. So so PR, it's it is different. It's about that reputation,that engagement piece. So, again, setting your objectives. You I want twobrief 10 politicians. I want to achieve three newspaper feature
S
Sarah McCracken
articles. I want to tell the story about x, y, andzed. So it's setting different types of objectives. But I do know, you know, ifyou're looking for something, say you want to want to get a career coach ora service like that, if you Google that or Google somebody's name because they'vebeen recommended, if you find an article about them somewhere on the Internet,maybe, you know, in a magazine or a newspaper or a blog or whatever ithappens to be, then you're gonna think, oh, they've got a bit of credibility becauseI can now read a bit more about them. So so that's the value ofPR as well. It's it's building that credibility through different outletsthat's not paid for. So, again, that that's gonna enhance your credibilityand hopefully down the line boost your presence. And, again, youknow, from from features, from from articles, you can see an uplift perhapsin your website traffic or in product sales when when an article has has comeout. So so there are ours where there are ways around it, but keeping atthe heart of it, PR is about your reputation and your visibility and your credibility.That's how you listen and engage with your stakeholders, and you'll not go too farwrong. No. And one of my, one of
Joanne Lockwoodhost
the things I often say to people is, you know, the old adage in businesswas it's not what you know, it's who you know. And I I said that'smoved on now. It's not what you know, who you know, but who knows you.
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Sarah McCracken
Exactly. And PR is about trying to get that who are
Joanne Lockwoodhost
you out your message, your brand, whatever it is.Marketing messages, whatever, selling stuff. Also, who am I?That's that's the PR side. So I don't it's not that I don't care whoyou are, but I care more that you know who I am. And this iskind of that's what PR does because it's making sure you position yourselfin the minds of people but in the right way. The the example
S
Sarah McCracken
I've used recently in some of my trainings is, what whatare they saying about you when you're not in the room? So I think it'svery similar to what you've just said. You know, with with this the marketingstudents last week, I had some, you know, some celebrity examples. What are yousaying about them when you're not in the room? One was acontroversial owner of a social media platform. I think that's how we'll describe them. Andand, again, some there was divided opinions. Some people thought he was a great businessperson. Other people thought he was a bit of a prat. So, again but it'sit's understanding how is that opinion formed. Because I did challenge, well, have you methim? Do do you know what that they're really like? I also Taylor Swift asa a slightly better example. But, again, there were Swifties in the room. There waspeople who didn't like her. And again, it's the conversation then is how haveyou formed that opinion about people? So it it can apply it to you andme as well. You hire people. The people's listening to this podcast have formed anopinion about me. Good or bad. I I don't know what it is. If it'sit's good, please get in touch with me. Let's have a cup of tea anda chat. If it's bad, write me a letter because you'll have to pay fora stamp. Who knows? A stamp on it. But you know, what are people sayingabout you when you're not in the room? That is how PR can help.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
No, I agree. I think that's, I think that's good. And touching on Taylor Swiftthere, I mean, I think she's a fantastic singer. Actually more importantly,she's a fantastic businesswoman as well, business person as well. She is aphenomenal entrepreneur in the way she's merchandised and marketedand created that brand and that wealth she's accumulated to spice. It'snot just by singing it. She's created a brand. I think that's the powerful thingwith Taylor Swift on the same way. We've got other, other people. But, you know,you look at people like maybe in the past, Elvis, they were kind of madeby a manager or made by an example. I think Taylor Swift's ownzone, their own brand and image. I think that that'sthat's what I always admire with Taylor Swift anyway. So, yeah, that's how Idescribe her. A fantastic singer and a fantastic businesswoman. That's
S
Sarah McCracken
good. Yeah. And what can we learn from that? You know, if if we're feelingreticent about taking that first step and that next first step, you know, what wasTaylor Swift's first step? What would Taylor do? Maybe that could be your new mantra.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Taylor, what would Taylor do? Yeah. She'd leave herrecord company and rerecord all the songs so they didn't get any revenue for theold back catalog. Yeah. That's I think that's that's a great thing. That's it. Ownown your content is a is a great it's a great lesson from that. Ownyour content and don't give it away for free or don't don't sign a dealwith it. It restricts your use of content. So, yeah, I think that's a goodlesson as well. Yep. So, Sarah, if if peoplewanna write to you properly, yeah, electronically. I mean, I don'tsuggest if I pops out, buys a stamp, and sticks on them when I post.So how how can people find you, get hold of you? I spend a lot
S
Sarah McCracken
of time on LinkedIn. So Sarah McCracken, FCIPR,which is fellow of the chartered and sheet of public relations. So you'll you'll findme on on LinkedIn a lot. And, again, it's what's worked well for meas as as a brand, as a service provider. I havecontent on Instagram. But, again, Instagram is really difficult. So, again, if you're judging whereto put your social content, where is your audience hanging out? SoLinkedIn, Sarah McCracken. Instagram is sarah mccrackenunderscore p r. Or if you would rather have content about chickens,no alpacas, maybe some sheep. You've got Sarah's come to life onInstagram as well. It's a bit more lighthearted. I also have a website, which iswww.theprclub.co.uk. And I do havesome free resources and downloads on that as well.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Fabulous. Well, I'll put a link to all that in the show notes below.Sarah, just for those who are listening, s a r a. Nono h. Sarah without an h. McCracken is msmall c big C r a c k en. Is that yep. That's me. Yes. Oh, yeah.There it is. It's been a fantastic chat talking about PR, alpacas, TaylorSwift, and people of the public eye we probably keeptalking about. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to expressmy deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lendingyour ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.If today's discussion struck a chord, consider subscribing toInclusion Bites and become part of our ever growingcommunity, driving real change. Share this journey withfriends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices thatmatter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision toshare? I'm all ears. Reach out tojo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk,and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this isJoanne Lockwood signing off for the promise to return withmore enriching narratives that challenge, inspire,and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive worldone episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.
In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood is joined by Sarah McCracken for an energising conversation centred on raising voices and shaping meaningful change through effective and authentic communication. Together, they explore the transformative power of public relations – not as “spin,” but as a genuine means to amplify underrepresented voices and champion the causes of inclusion, diversity, and belonging. The discussion covers how authenticity and visibility are fundamental for organisations and individuals seeking to make a positive impact, the nuances of PR versus marketing, and the risks of reputation management in an age of misinformation and polarised narratives. Joanne and Sarah offer fresh perspectives on countering toxic public discourse, myth-busting without fuelling negativity, and the role of emotional storytelling in bridging the gap between logic and action. Sarah is an award-winning PR and communications specialist based in County Down, Northern Ireland, with a career spanning sectors as diverse as healthcare, environment, politics, and education. Renowned for her work empowering women and marginalised groups to find confidence in their own voices, Sarah brings a wealth of campaigning experience, from securing smoke-free legislation to driving climate change action. She is particularly passionate about demystifying PR, running workshops and masterclasses to equip others with the skills to raise their visibility and engage meaningfully with stakeholders, journalists, and policymakers. As the founder of Women in PR Northern Ireland and The PR Club, Sarah’s mission is to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to be heard, whether advocating for legislative change or simply finding the courage to share their story online. Through their engaging exchange, Joanne and Sarah unpack why positive change begins when we tell our own stories with honesty and intention, rather than reacting to the noise of detractors. The episode touches on the challenge of ensuring marginalised voices reach the mainstream, how individuals and organisations can educate, lobby, and use social media effectively, and the most effective ways to handle negative PR. With real-life anecdotes and practical advice, listeners are not only encouraged to embrace their uniqueness but to connect authentically to create ripples of impact. The key takeaway from this episode is that shaping change requires courage, clarity, and the willingness to own your narrative—regardless of the platform or opposition. Listeners will come away determined to elevate their voices thoughtfully, champion the causes they believe in, and help foster a more inclusive dialogue.
The views and opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of Inclusion Bites, SEE Change Happen Ltd or Joanne Lockwood. This episode is shared for general interest and discussion; we accept no responsibility for the accuracy or completeness of any statements made.
