Wema Hoover explores the systemic challenges and backlash facing DEI, championing sustainable strategies that centre inclusion, belonging, and authentic organisational transformation amidst shifting societal and political landscapes.
Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuaryfor bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood,your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion,belonging, and societal transformation. Everwondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone notonly belongs but thrives? You're notalone. Join me as we uncover the unseen,challenge the status quo, and share stories that resonatedeep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you'resipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let'sconnect, reflect, and inspire actiontogether. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversationtoo. Reach out tojo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk toshare your insights or to join me on the show.So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time toignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.And today is episode 161 with thetitle, beyond the DEI backlash. AndI have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Wema Hoover.Wema is a global diversity, equity, and inclusion expert
Joanne Lockwoodhost
and former chief diversity officer for Fortune 500companies, including, no less, Google and Sanofi,dedicated to driving systemic change and cultural transformation. When Iasked Weymah to describe her superpower, she said that it is championingsustainable DEI strategies in a shifting corporate landscape.And don't we need that right now? Hello, Wema. Welcome to the show.
Wema Hooverguest
Hello, Joanne. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yes. And you're based in the New Jersey,did I hear you say? I am. I'm based based in Princeton, New Jersey,
Wema Hooverguest
which is right outside New York City and situated betweenPhiladelphia and New York. It's a bit nippy, bit cold over there at the moment.Yes. We've got a cold front. This is our typical Northeastweather that we have forgotten for many years, but came back blisteringover this. Yeah. But it's quite nostalgic. I don't I don't mind somuch. No. It's it's nice sometimes. It it changes it up a bit
Joanne Lockwoodhost
as you I think you're saying in the agreement, get chance to wear some differentshoes, different coats, and, different outfits. Exactly. I'm pulling out
Wema Hooverguest
all of my heavy coat and my various different, shoes thathas Gore Tex and the different materials for cold weather to keep your feetwarm. So it's been a lot. It's been a long you know, we would definitelywill welcome the spring, but right now, the fireplace, theheated blankets, all of that, I'm enjoying. I'm enjoying for themoment. I'm shivering just thinking about it. Yeah. In The UK, it's we get
Joanne Lockwoodhost
frightened if it gets to one degree centigrade. So, yeah, we have, we're struggling hereat the moment. K. Waima, you're telling me about your name. It's a beautifulname. What's the what's the history behind it? Thank you.
Wema Hooverguest
Yes. My name is Wema, which is Swahili, and it's, spelledw e m a, and the e is pronounced like a long a, that language.And it means true goodness. So, that is, you know, the back road ofmy name and was given to me through my parents. Theywere, you know, in the early seventies and here in America wantedto embrace our heritage. And so I've embraced it and I've hopefullylived up to the name through the work that I've done andhow I show up in the world. That's a truly beautiful day, Amanda, and even
Joanne Lockwoodhost
more peaceful meaning. So thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Lovely to meet you.We talked about your superpower. You know, championing sustainable DEI strategies as shiftingcorporate landscape. And we first started talking about thispodcast back in October, November last year, andthe landscape has shifted. It's not aggressively slow anymore. It's like a it'sbeen an avalanche in the last few weeks, hasn't it? What's happened? It
Wema Hooverguest
has. You know, it's been quite this change under ournew political administration, which has, you know, reallytargeted diversity, equity, inclusion programs as one as asbeing unfair and discriminated against,you know, those that are not in the minority and marginalizedcommunity. And which I think is unfortunate about it is thatit is really not understanding and taking, inconsideration the intent of diversity, equity, inclusion program, whichis not to provide advantage or preference, but it'sto provide access and level opportunities so the bestand brightest can shine. But unfortunately, that is not the narrative that isbeing purported, and it is actually being hijacked.And really, you know, a lot of misinformation around it isprevailing. And, what I am doing, through my work and my consultancyis helping organizations continue to leverage inclusion,equity, tapping into the diverse experiences,perspectives, backgrounds, sexual orientation of the workforceso that it can truly, truly maximize, the talent andpotential that'll drive their organizations forward. So I'm working with, youknow, my clients and I'm working also with organizations toensure that the, you know, that the true meaning, and, and,and, and essence and purpose of inclusion, equity, andreally the value of diversity is not lost and that it canstill be leveraged, not only for the employee engagement to makesure that everyone feels like they are working in asafe, welcoming environment that they feel like we belong,but also for connecting with the customers, the clients, andhaving impact. Right? And serving, you know, your constituency in themost, culturally relevant and respectful and dignified way. Do you think
Joanne Lockwoodhost
some of this backlash is becausemany people trying to implement the equity agenda, for want of a better way ofdescribing it? I don't I don't like that phrase myself, felt that they were beingmarginalized themselves. So the the white man has foundthemselves being pushed out of opportunity, and that's where the backlashhas come from. Yes, Joanne. I think it's a bit of that.
Wema Hooverguest
And, also, I think there is a mindset of zero sumgain so that if you gain and haveaccess and I see more of people who are not like me,then I am automatically assuming that I'm at a loss. When inactuality, it is not, you know, a zero sumgame. It is opening the aperture so that the truefabric of what United States and America was made onactually flourishes. Right? It actually flourishes and thrivebecause if you look at any point in history and especially in The United Stateshistory, the time that United States have grown froman industrial standpoint, from a technical standpoint, from a manufacturingstandpoint is also correlates to the highest times ofimmigration. So that diversity was at the centerof every growth, every expansion,every innovative, in in in innovative change and shiftin the country, it was correlated with immigration and really being able toleverage all of the different talent experiences and skillskills of the people coming into our country. So the sad thing about it is,is that we know this, this is evident. This is in our history, inour research, but yet in yet instilled this like, you know,misinformed and, you know, completely false narrative israining because there is an assumption that, you know,because we're giving the opportunities that there is a loss for aparticular community or a group of people. And my fear is that thatloss is gonna translate into a loss of our abilityto become and maintain our competitive nature to harnessthe, the true talent and potential and that, you know, we live in a globalworld right now. These are individual, you know, people are able to, youknow, be employed to get opportunities outside of The US or inother forms. So I say that it's even more imperative now forour society, for organizations, to reallyanchor themselves and connect their, youknow, DEI efforts, inclusion efforts, whether it's justbe shifting the names, making sure that it is really centering allpeople so that they can truly tap into and and and leverage andmaximize the the best skills, innovation, ideas, and perspectivesof the people in society. What's surprising me is the number
Joanne Lockwoodhost
of household names, big brands that aresuddenly purging their own DEIinitiatives, on their Facebook pages, pages on theirwebsite, not part of the federal government. They'd be waitingfor an excuse to drop this, or do you think it's they're being leveraged byby the administration to make these changes? Yeah. That's an interesting,
Wema Hooverguest
question, Joanna. And I, you know, and I I wanna, you know, actuallyaddress that. And although we have been seeing,you know, a ramped amount and and been publicized,the companies that are kind of deinvesting or minimizing theirDEI, which is a propaganda strategy aswell, because it's not, it's not, it's not all of them. I mean, if you,you look at it, I think, you know, they did, a, anestimate and I think it was between seven to 8% of the Fortune500 companies. However, if you also extract that anddig a little deeper, those are the companies that have only been investedin DEI probably for the last four to five years. Sothey're the ones who literally, when we had thehorrible murder of George Floyd in 2020, that was a pivotalpoint, not only in The United States, but across every market and everycountry where you really looked at, you know, what ishappening between the markets, not only the opportunities,but the impact that they're having in society with access to,you know, grow to have opportunities that everyone was reevaluating.Those are the companies who really touted and stoodup their programs. And now, you know, we can truly say thatperhaps that was just window dressing. Right. It was a moment in time thatit was socially acceptable to do something, do those. But if you really kindof dig into those that have de invested are the ones that have notbeen, has not had it a part of their strategic imperatives that hasonly been, you know, really focused on it throughthat time, right, as a response, but not as apractical approach to their workforce development, totheir talent strategy, and to theirmarket segmentation and ability to drive their business.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I remember probably six or seven years ago, if not maybe more, when it waseither North Carolina or South North Carolina had the bathroom bill, wasn't it? They signedthe bathroom bill in North Carolina, the first state to do so. There was areal solidarity between behind a lot ofserious brands and corporate companies posing it,pulling their confidence out of it, basically saying, we're not gonna support North Carolina anymore.That is that solidarity still there? Is that is there other people gonna push back,or is the the administration too powerful at the federal levelnow? You know, that is a broad question, and I I
Wema Hooverguest
can't give a definitive answer. What I can say is that I thinkright now, we are still within the first one hundred days of our new administration.And I think everyone is really paralyzed because no oneknows what's coming next. These changes have come so fast andfurious. I think everyone is really trying to kind of makemeaning of what to do, how to maintain,you know, the efforts and their intention, the ones who, you know, thecompanies, organizations, and the states that are truly trying to make a difference andensuring that everyone feels safe, feels included, feels likethey belong, have this environment that they can truly be their authentic self. SoI do believe that right now we are in a place ofjust being stale and waiting to see what is happeningbecause literally these things, you know, Joanna's happening daily. I, I, Icannot tell you. It's almost like our head is spinning everysingle day with something new. And so Ihave been counseled and I, you know, I know a lot of,the focus had been on how do we retain instead of beingreactive and having an emotional and adirect response to these, all of the executive orders, thechanges coming out, how do we retain what is good and what we know whatworks for us? How do we connect it to our value systems,connect it to how we share our shareholders? I gave you the examples. Costco. Costco'sshareholder put a, vote to rid of itsDEI programs and not have any of them. AndCostco, you know, pushed back and said, no, we are not doing thatbecause that is the nature and the essence of how we engage ourcustomer and clients. And we want them to come into the Costco and feelthat it is actually connected to them. It understands them. It's actually giving them, youknow, products and services. You know,products and services and access to things that are and so they rejected them.
Wema Hooverguest
And I think that that's what the position that, you know,kind of most organizations are. And I think that that's a position that most statesare are doing, kind of how do we protect, right, protect right now in thisseries. See, you know, we're in still in that first hundreddays, what it is coming that obviously can can legally,be, defended in this time and error. Sowe are still in the thick of of things, you know, but I think Ishared with you earlier what is keeping me encouraged.Even though every day, it has been an effort to get up and stay encouraged,around, you know, the small you know, the acts of kindness that has beenso increased tremendously. Like I've experienced it and I had donethat. I think there is a spirit and energy. It's like, you know, whatever's happeningat the macro level, what kindness, what extension of humanitycan I drive myself that really impacts the community I am?I've felt that and seen that in tremendous ways. And that is givingme the energy and the courage to know that, you know, there is still thatpassive resistance through create you know, like Maha Gandhi said, you know, bethe change you wanna create. And and I've experienced As an observer from the other
Joanne Lockwoodhost
side of the pond, the, it seems like aa dystopian reality that Margaret Atwood put,created in Handmaid's Tale. Some of these things are just with the last administrationfour or five years ago, I believe that things like that could happen. And I'mI'm believing it even more now that one day, women's rights are gonna bepeeled back so far, and nobody's gonna be standing up and saying, no. We're dismantlingtoo much of the protection mechanisms, Roe versus Wadeto push back anti abortion everywhere, women beingpulled out of influential positions in power, demonized for was itthe the coast guard? Head of the coast guard was a woman being blamed fordisasters, almost like a resetting. Rhetoric such as if you want ajob done properly, it has to be a man, has to be a white man,and and women aren't able to deliver. We want more masculine energy accordingto Zuckerberg in organizations. So how far fetches MargaretAtwood's vision? Is something closer and closer now? You
Wema Hooverguest
know, honestly, you know, I don't know how it is farfetched, but you know what they say, you know, reality is alwaysstranger than fiction. Right? And so you have these things, but but again, youknow, I wanna say that in any society, United States, you know, in TheUS and even abroad where we actually had other pundits that did notget, you know, I when I was living in France, I mean, you know, MarieLe Pen was was, you know, I was there during the election with Emmanuel Macronand she's not as dissimilar to to, our current president.But I do think that you have factions of opposingideologies and political stances that are always at the fringes.Right? Because again, I go back to what I said earlier, there is a thoughtthat difference equals loss. Difference equals, youknow, there is, you know, a sense of change orhijacking what an entitlement that I believe that I have.You know, but I also do believe that, you know, this is a momentin time. And I think what is happening here, especially in United States, thereis a reckoning, right? Because those who may have voted for the currentadministration did not realize just the kindof massive, not only changes, but dismantling that wouldhappen that would affect their own backyard, you know, from an educationsystem, from an immigration system, you know, from an access in socialsecurity. So I do think that there is this almost like,still reality that, wow, this is not what Isigned up for. And, you know, because of that, you know, my hope, and Iam encouraged that there will be more, you know, people that wouldstand up as we look at the midterms coming up and looking at theexpectations that we have for our, you know, political leaders who representus to actually put them in action. And that's to say, hey, you know what?We need to have people who understand not only myissues, but can actually create, a society of law and order,which feels like we don't have we which we don't have anymore. People have drawn
Joanne Lockwoodhost
parallels with, nineteen thirties Germany, '19 twenties,'19 thirties Germany, where the incumbent administrationdismantled the protection mechanism in such a way that there was no one tostop them, and then a a momentum took place. And I think if you're notcareful that this administration is now controlling the media.The, we realize how powerful social media is. Facebook Xis a powerful outlet that drives opinion, and it would appear that theadministration has implicit control over those of
Joanne Lockwoodhost
those. Necessarily. I I would absolutely
Wema Hooverguest
ascertain that the media outlets are giving a fair description of what ishappening, and they are objectively challenging. I mean,even in the press rooms and even in the White House briefings, even in thenews and the, as they have, if they could not, if they did not, Imean, they, they have to, because these are things that are accessible to the public,you know, the executive orders, gross negligence in some, in some instances,gross negligence, any confidence that is happening, they have, and it hasbeen recorded really accurately and, and on thoseplatforms. So I can't say that there is not like this shieldthat we are all putting at, you know, kind of putting up on us thatwe're not able to understand and know what's really going on. Oh, no. It'squite the opposite. It's almost like it's too much. We get all of thereality, but it is happening so fast and so daily that youalmost get overwhelmed and it makes you have, you know,this feeling of helplessness, which, you know, may bea tactic that you're like, it's happening so fast. What can I do? And that'swhere I say, you know, we talked in the green room around, you know, thedaily, the need for people daily to really wake up,understand, and be very thoughtful about the information they're takingin, how they're kind of making meaning of it. And then how are they kindof orienting themselves through meditation, through prayer, through whatever, throughyoga, wherever, you know, kind of vehicle you use to ground yourself to do that.That is so important. And more important to where you havethe opportunity to make those changes, have those micro behaviors, likein the area and the communities and environments that you are immediatelyin. Because although that's happening at a macro level, I can say thecommunity level, people want to hold those values. People not onlyhold those, they believe them. We are we are entrenched in them and not gonnalet them know. Will we see another George Floyd? Maybe if
Joanne Lockwoodhost
not black American, maybe Hispanic Americans. Will wesee another uprising due to some significant injusticethat lights the barricade? Will we see something erupt, do you think? I pray that
Wema Hooverguest
we don't. And that is my deep and and solemn prayer that we don't becausethat was horrific. And it was a time that and I wasn't even living inThe United States at the time when that happened. I was still living in France.And I can tell you that it reverberated across the ocean, thecontinents. And in my role, I was leading diversity, equity, inclusionat the time and had all the global markets. Every market felt that. Idon't, I would not pray for that, but I what I would would pray isthat, you know, there is, an awakening and aveil lifted that, you know, it is not I don't I don't Idon't even wanna say it's around diversity, equity, inclusion. I wanna say that
Wema Hooverguest
it it is, you know, around this,fear of, you know, that different people,gender, sexual orientation, race are, youknow, able to have opportunity and able totake positions and make effective change so that that this world and thiscountry can literally be a place where everybody canthrive. And, you know, that is where there's a fear. There's a fearthat, you know, when you look at the demographic census, you know,of United States, particularly of, you know, how, you know, people of color,you know, will continue to be the growing majority if you look at theten, ten to fifteen years out. And that fear is driving that100%. And so it's masked in diversity equity inclusion,it's masked in, you know, xenophobia, it's, it's masked in, you know,misogyny, all any, you know, all the isms that you can think of, but thatis the reality. But again, you know, I, I, I don't, youknow, prescribe to the fact that it is dismal and we are not withouthope or not without action because action is, is happening. We, we havefederal judges and actions being taken to thwart it. But it, but I alsothink, again, like I said before, it, it has to come for each individualreally imparting change within the community and the environment that they'rein with organizations really aligning, you know,their efforts to their mission, their purpose, their kind of employee valueproposition to their customer and, and, and, and clientcentricity, how they understand them. That has, it has to get back to the rootsof why were you doing this in the first place? And those organizations that didnot define that or never had that though, thosestrong roots to begin with, they're the ones who are backing off because it wasnot, it was not solid and anchored solidly in anytype of fabric of why they were doing it. And so this is where, youknow, I'm reporting and really, really, really encouraging others tostand and take action. So what what disenfranchised everybody to the
Joanne Lockwoodhost
point where they need to vote in this way?Because my my understanding again from this side of the pond is that,women, people of color, Hispanic, Latino,black communities, all voted or large enough numbers forthis administration. What disenfranchisedthem from from the what was there before? There was must must be some reasonwhy people were hanging on. I wanna vote for better. What was better they wereexpecting? Yeah. And so I'll preface it by saying I'm not a
Wema Hooverguest
political strategist, although I I do think I understand,you know, and influence it, but, but, you know, from my perspective andwhen you look at the poll numbers, it wasn't that people voted for something. Ithink the problem is we had a lot of people who didn't vote at all.I think that there were a lot of assumptions that I'm not gonna, I'm gonnasit this one out. You know what I, this, this will never take place.You know, this administration will never get voted in and I'm just gonna letthe politics go as it were, it was because there has been too many,too many kind of fractions back and forth. And I'm not wholly happy with, youknow, the democratic party. I'm not wholly happy with the Republican party, but this willnever happen. So it wasn't a vote for. It was, you know,a large, large, which is like, like a third or third of people who justdidn't show up at all. Yes. So that that is the reality. And it wasn'ta landslide at all. It was probably the least, I think. And again, I'mnot a political strategist, but from what I I've read and I've known, you know,from the debriefs of the election was,the election that, you know, this party has won by the least margin in thepast, I don't know, 10 to 12 elections. So it wasn't, it wasn'toverwhelming. It was that group that just didn't come out because therewas assumption that this would never happen. Kind like what we talked about with thehandmaid's tale. This would never happen, and, oh, boy, will were we wrong. Well, that's
Joanne Lockwoodhost
what I wanted to say, actually. And the their their hypothesiswas we were being too complacent for the rights we'dhad, the life we were having. And it'snow woken the world up, or certainly the Western world, to the fact that ifyou if you don't make a stand, you don't speak out, thenyou will get you will get change that you don't like. So every vote counts.Yeah. Yes. Not taking a stand and that complacency
Wema Hooverguest
was absolutely the nail in the coffin for us. And I dothink also there was just a kind of genuine assumption that that can never happenin our country again. We would never regress back tothe time where every person is not seen, centered, andand and feels like they can have, a part of the American dream, and weare. And so it was, you know, kind of not on voting for. It's like,you know, I'm gonna let the politicians and the folks do. I'm gonna just sitout. And then it was a shoot. It was the largest amount that we've hadin many, many elections of people who just didn't show up. Why won't we
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I I appreciate I'm pushing you out of your lane here a little bit intothe political commentaries. Let me let me try and swerve you back into the comfortzone lane where you can talk about stuff. What I'd what I'd like to dois talk to our listener out there who's listening in, who's probably,in HR, in DEI, EDI themselves. Maybe they're in largecompany or small company. In in this time wherenot just in The US, it's it's a pushback in the yeah. The anti workthere's the anti DEI or EDI in The UK is being pushed back as well.People do in their in their businesses right now. And if if your list ifyour listeners is your company, what should company be doing at thistime to either ensure that their their peoplefeel level of psychological safety or actually keeping their businessfocused on what's important in the face of all this negativity? Yeah. That's
Wema Hooverguest
a great question, Joanne. And I and, you know, what I think the most importantthing is for organizations, to really go back totheir values. Why are they focusing on and why do they value,and it is important to them, diversity, equity, inclusion, andreally connected to not only what they do, but how you do it.Right? And the way that you do it, how does it ensure thatyou are creating a psychologically safe, inclusiveenvironment that people can be their best and bring their best?People cannot bring their best if they're in hostile environments, if they feel thatthey are not going to be tacked on or being able to contribute because ofwho they are or what their authentic, their authentic selves. And how does itactually support your strategic imperatives, your business imperatives? How is itactually integrated into your purpose and your values and your mission?And if your mission is really around serving aclient, a customer, or really providing a product that serveseveryone for you not to have inclusion for you not tohave, a value of diversity, for you not to harnessthose, those insights and the ways of working that allows youto have culturally relevant ability to connect withthe people that you serve is going to not allowyou to be successful. Right? And that is what I'm encouragingorganizations to get back to. In addition, I think in this environment, it isalso important to have a very pragmatic and practical approach, which isreally looking at, you know, your talent and your systems, right? Because what you don'twant to do is actually expose yourself to kind of anyretaliation or area for the, for the government, the federal government,particularly if you have a federal contract, you won't be expected to adhere tothat standards is by looking at your, your systems and making surethat in this environment, you don't really drivewith quotas. Right? You don't have a number, but you stillhave the processes and, and the, the,systems in place to, to address bias, to addressinequities. Because at the end of the day, what you're trying to do is reallymake sure that you create an environment where it is meritocracy, where it isthe best and the bright brightest, but you're not leading with a number,a quota, or, you know, any type of incentive withputting people in. And, you know, the, the interesting thing and the irony ofit is that that is the whole intent of DEI. It's just to debias and open up access so that you can get the, thebest and the brightest because it was not allowed before because people reallyjust hired, tapped into, promoted people based onlikeness and familiarity. And so that is what I, you know,encouraging HR professionals, DEI professionals, and most, you know, to behonest with you, CEOs and executives in these organizations toreally buckle down down on and focus in this time. Yeah. Because I think
Joanne Lockwoodhost
people misunderstood equity in all these these conversations. And andthere's always also you know, I always get a bit wild when people just shovethe meritocracy in my face and say, well, the best person shouldget the job. Well, we know that equity is important to ensure thebest person does get the job given the fact that not everybody has the samestart line. 100%. And that's what's missing from this
Wema Hooverguest
comp the the the this narrative that's being reported right now. Right?And that's what the whole system was designed to do is to giveeveryone the opportunity, not only to start, buthave continual access. Because we know that, you know, equity is challengedat every rung from the academic, you know, through the hiring,through the development, through the promotion. So at every rung, thereare biases. There are systemic processes and obstacles andbarriers in place. And this is what these systems are designed to do. Not togive preferential treatment or choose a particular person or background orgender, but it's to making sure that you have access and those,regardless of the difference, have have access. So the best and the brightest can shine.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. I sorry. My brain just froze. I had a question ready to come out,and it just put disappeared. And it's you'reso right. One thing that I've I've found when I'm talking to people is thatthere's this perception. If you hire for diversity,you'll hire for second best. So, again, this this anti equity, thisthis pro meritocracy argument is you must be of this demographicor your second best. And that's the narrative that seems to be very pervasiveamongst people with privilege, for whatever better way of describing it. That is
Wema Hooverguest
so true. I mean, it is essentially today that that isthe narrative that they are purporting, that it is second best, and then thatyou are not getting, the quality of hire or the talent.When, if you really dig into it, I mean, honestly, if you look at theresearch, you will see that those that have thediverse background are usually overeducated, overqualified,and probably have, you know, more than whateverthe experience is having. But again, because they don't have the affinity,they don't have the likeness, they don't have the, the commonality from a pedigreeor, you know, like a social economic status or, you know,an educational, they don't have access. And, and this is what it, whatis really, you know, kind of interesting isbecause it is propaganda. Right? Propaganda is like where you just kindof put a marketing and you don't have any evidence to prove it. But infact, it's evidence against this, you know, which is the reality,which is, you know, why I think it's so important fororganizations to not only, tap into a leverage it,but also now create their own, you know, kind of truthtelling, create their own success stories and startcommunicating it. Like how, when they have done it, they've been ableto kind of tap into, to new markets. They've been able toleverage talents that, you know, were maybe not theprototype or the archetype of what they have been used to. And reallytalk about the benefits and a value that organizationshave, have been able to achieve because of that. This is where you gotta gottaestablish your own value proposition and do some historical digging andreally putting that forward and amplifying that. Because thatis the only way that you will challenge something that, you know,a lot of people wanna believe because to your point earlier,it will justify them rising so hard against it toprotect their own privilege. So we've seen big companies. I mean, McKinsey
Joanne Lockwoodhost
is a great example of one of the perpetrators, ifyou want, or proponent of DEI as abusiness imperative. You know, they they make a lot of money as selling theirstatistics and their consulting around, you'll be x percent more this and y percentbetter this and z percent better this if you do this, this and this. It'sthat easy. Every company would be x percent betterthis and y percent better that and z percent better this, But that's not happening.Are are people missing the point of these initiatives, or they're notimplementing the well, or they they go into them with the wrong objectives? Goeson because they spent billions on DEI initiatives,And we're not we're not more successful as a result. Where's where'sthe disconnect? Well, first, I wanna challenge that a
Wema Hooverguest
bit. I don't think that there is no evidence, aroundthat. And I also wanna challenge the, you know, the thought thatthere's billions being spent on DEI. These are notDEI. DEI is, is a business strategy. It is atalent program. It is accessing. And so what isbeing labeled and what and how you put it, it's not a DEIprogram with with that, that has it on. No. These are, good talent strategies,effective employee engagement efforts. These are customersegmentation, which is a, you know, a really tried and truemarketing strategy and customer centricity. These arenot DEI strategy. And this is a part of the falsenarrative that has actually being actually purported. That these are just, no,these are good business practices. That's it.And like every other business practice, you have a strategy,you have imperatives and you have actions to drivethem. And like every other strategic imperative, you have people who do them well
Wema Hooverguest
and actually are maximize and get the benefit of it and the value ofit. And you have folks that don't, that don't do it well because they don'tbelieve in it or they want to keep, you know, the statusquo. And, I would actually go soft prior to say if they do that,perhaps their growth and their ability to achieve is thwarted and is notas grown as much. So I, I wanna make sure that when we talk aboutit, we don't put a label on something that is goodbusiness practices and that, you know, those that are kind of sharingand, and promoting this misinformation, are saying is D I.No, these are good business practices before there was atitle or there was a label of DEI. These were stillin existence because it is known fromorganizational psychology and assistance approach that when people are inan environment where they feel safe, they feel included, they have theability to be themselves. They perform the best. When you understand,you know, and have an ability to connect with your customer or client,in a culturally relevant, socioeconomicrelevant and a racial or gender that you're trying to servethem. If you do that well, you're able to understand them,connect to them and maximize that customer experience. These are notDEI pro. These are good business strategies that now have beenhijacked and have been mislabeled to purportthis divisive and racist, I will go say, agendathat it is us against them. It's not. These are just goodbusiness strategies. So if those are good business strategies,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
what are the toxic DEI labels that we need to, shed then?What's what's this clear? What what are we getting confused with? What do youmean toxic DEI? Well, the d I d I d I isbeing labeled as as toxic. It's been labeled aswasteful. What you're just saying, I think, I completely agree with, is that all theseinitiatives are sound business strategies. So what you'resaying is DEI is a sound business strategy. It just happens to have got athree letter acronym, which what we should be doing is focusing on what you're talkingabout here is better hiring, a better well-being programs, better opportunities, betteralignment with your customers, which is what we're saying. The it's beingmis misinterpreted as something else. And this iswe're talking about this this against the meritocracy is or the theequity. These are these are the kind of words that have been branded as, asas toxic, if you like. Whereas, really, they'rethey're they're they're they're actually part of sound business practice. Yeah. I I wouldn't
Wema Hooverguest
say they've been branded. I think they've been hijacked. And what I'll do isgive those labels to those that are, again, misinforming,mislabeling, and are purporting just falsehoods.And so, I'm not going to even acknowledge them as they'renot. Because at the end of the day, like I just, you said, these aregood business strategies. And when we talk about DEI, what weare actually informing is that, hey, these business strategiesdo allow you to have diversity, equity, inclusion. That's the outcomes.
Wema Hooverguest
But the practices, the strategies, the efforts,the, to be honest, all of that is business strategy is the same. You wouldhappen to get it when you do that well, diversity, equity, andinclusion. Now there are, you know, those that we had, I mean, withadmissions, college admissions that you are looking intently at, you know,righting wrongs and which we have seen through all modernsocieties and common societies in terms of, looking at pasttransgressions against, communities of people. We have been a native Americans here in TheUnited States that have, you know, received, you know, protected lands and theyhave, you know, special tax practice because they were the, you know,original inhabitants of The United States. And so we have those practices, but whatwe're talking about, I will not,acknowledge or agree that those are, youknow, toxic labels. They're not, those are peep, those arelabels that have been hijacked and are being misinformed.It's not. These strategies are business strategy, effectivestrategy, business strategy that have been in place by the way, for decades and decadesand decades, that happened to have alsoa great outcome of diversity, equity, inclusion, which happensto be very sound strategies and tacticsto have strong workforce, you know, of, of, of, of inclusion, of,of, perspective ideas and a wonderfulopportunity to understand segment and meet the needs of yourmarket just happens to be, which is also inclusion. So I, you know,reject them and, and, and don't believe and will not say that those are toxic.It's not, it's the people that are using and hijacking them,to create and push this false, narrative that are are usingthat. Everyone else, I I would say, most of the peopleunderstand and and and know that, that that is not the, that, that is notthe case. I think, people put too much emphasis on hiring
Joanne Lockwoodhost
and not enough emphasis on creating strategies for retention.
Wema Hooverguest
Creating strategies for retention. You know what? And that is, to be honest with you,that has, that has always been, you know, quite the challenge,right. Is that, you wanna show the impact of your effortsby being able to bring, you know,folks of all backgrounds in so that you can truly tapinto like, you know, whole innovation idea creation. Butthe, the reality is, and, and I'll say that we are feeling it here insociety as well. Right. It's an organization society. If you don't createthe conditions for these individuals to feellike they can contribute, to get their ideasleveraged, to know that there's expectations for them tosucceed, they won't. What will they do? They willshut down. They'll become paralyzed, and they will work in an environment that
Wema Hooverguest
is hostile and that you're not able to tap into their bestor their brightest. Right? And we, you know, we've seen this evident andparticularly in The United States and been many times during the trend bigtransition. For example, after the pandemic, you know, you had alot of women that were, you know, doing, workinginternally, you know, at organizations and kind of even though they were working remotely,but they still had this, you know, huge responsibility of being caretakersfor the home. And they, you know, they, experiencedextreme burnout, extreme burnout. And so what happened? We saw the largestincrease of female entrepreneurs after that period. Like they justopted out of the corporate spare. And so I'm gonna go on my own becauseI wanna be, you know, the architect of my life and really have thiswork life integration as a center. You know, most of this thing is balanced, butintegration of the center. And I think, you know, this is what iswhere kind of we're seeing evidence now is that if you're notworking, working and focus just as much on retention and theconditions that all employees can be able to contribute,then that will that may be the result that not only don't tap intotalent, but they may just kind of exit, choose not to, youknow, be a part of the corporate environment, and are going to another opportunityin another organization or go on their own. So let's let's talk to some
Joanne Lockwoodhost
of our listeners who are working maybe for smaller companies. I mean, youyou got a lot of experience in the the larger multinationalfour did you say four two five hundred? And I'd like to say the maturitylevel of those organizations is likely to be better than the midsize and thesmall medium companies. What shouldCEOs of small and medium companies, CHROs, c suite people bethinking about as their top priority?Taking the DEI label apart, going back to the sound business strategy, is itif you've got a kind of starting point, where where should they start? Yeah. I
Wema Hooverguest
I absolutely would recommend they start with, you know, what arethe cultural conditions? You know, the organizational culture.You know, what are those, behaviors that are beingendorsed and communicated and upheld? And what arethose behaviors that are toxic, are divisive,and that may, you know, impact you being able to reallyhave your workforce and your talent be in asafe, welcoming psychologically, a safeenvironment to thrive. So looking at and focusing on the culture. And then again,really standing on how do you reinforce that and create your ownnarrative and your own value proposition of why you'refocusing on it and what the impact it has had. What is the impact on,you know, the employee engagement being made with the workforce talent? What is the impacton your, your business? And I think by doing that, you reallyquell the noise outside And it's easier to havealignment, you know, from your leaders, your managers,your HR, and for the employees to understand that I'm in workingin service of something greater than myself, that this organization is focusing onthis. And this is the reasons why I am expectedto behave, to work, to interact, to have thoseconnections with my colleagues and also to our customer and clients. But in fact,doing that, it really allows the outside to be silentand that everyone knows when they walk through those doors, regardless of what's what'shappening in society, that this is the expectation set for them. I I hear a
Joanne Lockwoodhost
lot a lot of people I see a lot of people on LinkedIn. You know,it's quite a common topic of, ofDEI stroke HR burnout where people are gettingreally frustrated. I mean, talk about the current world climateor the current US centric climate at the moment being very,very anti DEI, whatever it may be. How canpeople in those positions keep on keeping on, if youlike, in the face of negativity, rejection.If you're a person of color, you're black, you know, a black woman trying toadvocate for these roles, and there's this pervasiveness in societysaying, this is all wrong. It must be quite quite tough psychologically at the momentto to keep going, wasn't it? Yeah. And I don't think that there's a there
Wema Hooverguest
I think that there are there's a lot of people from the mountains joining antiDI, but I I've seen so many that have stood up and really champion andsay that we're not here, not today. And you did and you're on on theacross the pond in Germany. I was really happy to hear, you know, when JDVance went to space, speak and, and, and really tried to purport, you know,the, and I forgot, forgot the name of the, at the political party, butthe chancellor of Germany said, we're not going backwards. That made me feel pride.And that's what we need to be talking about when we talk about the entityand I, and then also those that are expressly and deliberatelynot embracing that. And there we are seeing that quitesignificantly. I mean, we see Emmanuel Macron as well, kind of stand up and, andsay, you know, this is really interesting, crazy things happening overthere, but we're gonna kinda double down here. But the burnout is real.And the burnout is one that, I would say is comingbecause you have the HR practitioners, you have thosewho, you know, still work or continue to work in DEI, as wellas, you know, just the everyday managers. I don't wanna take them out because theyare the curators of the culture and the work environment for employeesto, to work in. There's burnout there. And it's because,you have, like, this multifaceted challenge that youhave to kinda manage. You know, how do you keep your employees engaged and youkeep them motivated as well as understand that there's different attitudes,beliefs that are pervasive in the workplace because they come from society. Right. And howdo you make sure that you're aligning yourself so you can bring the bestand actually have the conditions so people can feel like that they can contribute and
Wema Hooverguest
thrive. And one of the things that, you know, I, I say it isso important is around getting the space todo that coaching, that advisory,advisory, to your leaders right now. You know, really that is so importantbecause the leaders need to make meaning for themselves andbe able to sit with whatever their personal opinions,their affiliation is outside, but what is needed insidethe organization and why. And I think that executive counciland coaching, if you will, is so imperative right now because thatconnection in terms of what impact it has on theculture, the work, the, the pulse of the organization, theability for your, organization to continue to beproductive, aligned, still have, you know, the spirit andenergy to drive performance or to get stuck in this, youknow, cycle of reactionary responses thatproduce, you know, no good or no impact. And so, you know,my recommendation during this time, it's really to kind of work withyour leaders, doing the council advisory andalso at the same time, creating spaces for your employees toshare and to, you know, really acknowledge what theyare experiencing, what they're going through and what is reallyhappening, you know, within the walls of their companies so thatthey can address those things from a micro level and a macro level.And, you know, it is a tough time, so I'm not gonna mask it andsay that it's, it's gonna be easy, but I think doing those two things,you could at least understand the pulse and get an understanding of the pulse ofwhat's happening. But then it also, you know, really walk with and sitwith your, leaders to help shepherd them because theyhave just as much challenge and, and, and, and workto do to not only make meaning, but to show up in a way that'llallow their organizations to continue to perform andnot be paralyzed or spin during this crazy moment that we're in.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Moment that we're in. I love that as a as a sound bite. How long'sthe moment? This probably this probably be the longest moment ever. It's, but Isuppose in in terms of the, the Earth's history, this is just a,microsecond in in the billions of years we've been going, and I'm sure it'll justbe in in the in the billions of years to to come, it will justbe insignificant. So we'll hope I hope you're right. I hope we look back atthis and, laugh about do you remember that crazy time in2025? And and, and, yeah, when the world hada a bit of a reset. But then I suppose we survived COVID. You know,the world, we never predicted that, a global pandemic could,could wipe us out in the way it did, and we didn't react in theway we did, and things would change so much. This is Maybe this is justan another pandemic. It's just man made. It's not the world.
Wema Hooverguest
I wanna make sure that we're clear. This is not the world. It's not the
Joanne Lockwoodhost
world. These are, you know, I I I I purport them to, you
Wema Hooverguest
know, people with pan pots and pans that are just, you know, making noise,but they're doing that. It's not the world. I think that, you know, we havejust as much or maybe even more, you know, folks, you know, here in thein The United States and across the world that don't want to go back tothose times and that are doing amazing work to make sure that theystand on their values. They stand on the opportunitiesand, you know, the benefits that has gained. So I thinkwe all should embrace that. And, again, start with those micro behaviors that you cando in your own environment, right, in your own community because that that's where changeis really made. Yeah. Just doubling down on what you're saying earlier, this this is
Joanne Lockwoodhost
is sound business sense we're talking here. We're talking about sound business senseYes. Aligning with customers, showing your yourcolleagues, your staff, your people around you feel asense of belonging, sense of inclusion, pressuring effort, all the things we knowthat happen when people are feeling the magic. Tapping into wide talentpools through our hiring strategies. We're we're picking from a globalmarket now with online resources, everything. We're truly finding the bestpeople and making sure we get the tools in order tobe heard and seen, have that voice. That's that's all we're talking about here, isn'tit? That's all. That's all. Let's let's you know what? We can just
Wema Hooverguest
get rid of the label or, like, have a label because this is just goodbusiness business strategies. And those that are working, you know, and I would like tosay like the the Jamie Dimons of the world, we have so many CEOs arestepping up and basically saying the same thing are not letting therhetoric stop them or put fear inthem. And and that's what we need to stand behind and and emulate.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Emma, I've I've loved this conversation. It's been absolutely fascinating. How could people get holdof you? Because you you've got so much to say, and it's it's fascinating evenwhen I pushed you out of your lane a little bit. So how can peopleget hold of you? Well, thank you, Joanne. This has been a such a an
Wema Hooverguest
engaging, discussion and and and and and quite thought provoking.So you can get in contact with me. I'm at w w w dot wemahooverdot com. And once you go in there, you could actually just go,bwwbelimitlesscom.com is my businessconsulting strategy, where you can get to and access throughwemahoover.com as well. I'm on LinkedIn. And soI also have a lot of articles that I have written forvarious publications. You can check out my article and position on many of thesetopics as well. And on Instagram, I'm Wema Hoover. And, Ilook forward to not only continuing this dialogue, but Joanna, I look forward toseeing what you do. I think that the work that you're leading is soimportant and these open, honest dialogue is really what helppeople learn. I think we gotta get in these days, we have to get awayfrom the corporate speak and get to really the essence of howpeople are thinking, feeling, and what they can do, like what's in there.So I thank you for all you do. Bye, Emma. Thank you.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to expressmy deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lendingyour ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.If today's discussion struck a chord, consider subscribing toInclusion Bites and become part of our ever growingcommunity, driving real change. Share this journey withfriends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voicesthat matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a visionto share? I'm all ears. Reach out tojo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk,and let's make your voice heard. Until next time. This is
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return withmore enriching narratives that challenge, inspire,and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world,one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.
In this thought-provoking episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood explores the shifting terrain of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) with global DEI expert Wema Hoover. As policies and public narratives in both the United States and UK face significant scrutiny and backlash, Joanne and Wema dissect why inclusion efforts are being re-evaluated, how organisations are responding, and where the misconceptions about equity and meritocracy truly lie. Listeners will gain a window into how high-profile brands and corporate leaders are navigating today’s political headwinds, as well as clear-headed advice for HR and inclusion practitioners on maintaining organisational values and psychological safety amidst uncertainty.
Wema Hoover brings a wealth of experience as a former Chief Diversity Officer at renowned companies including Google and Sanofi, with a career dedicated to leading systemic change and driving cultural transformation on a global scale. Based in Princeton, New Jersey, she grounds her practice in championing sustainable DEI strategies that adapt to complex and volatile environments. Wema’s perspectives are shaped not only by her leadership across continents but also by a personal commitment to the true meaning of inclusion and belonging. She approaches DEI not simply as a compliance exercise, but as a sound business strategy that unlocks employee potential and meets the evolving needs of clients, communities, and customers.
Listeners can expect an unflinching discussion about the realities of the current DEI backlash, the role of misinformation and fear in shaping public sentiment, and the dangers of complacency. Joanne and Wema unpack the pitfalls of viewing DEI through a zero-sum lens, highlight the need for authentic business alignment, and stress the importance of both cultural retention and psychological safety—especially for those who feel disheartened by today’s climate.
A key takeaway from this episode is the call to reconnect with the foundational values of inclusion as simply good business sense—fostering environments where talent and innovation flourish, and where every individual has the opportunity to thrive. For anyone seeking inspiration and practical strategies to create meaningful change despite external pressures, this episode offers both context and hope.
The views and opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of Inclusion Bites, SEE Change Happen Ltd or Joanne Lockwood. This episode is shared for general interest and discussion; we accept no responsibility for the accuracy or completeness of any statements made.
