Age, Bias, and Belonging: Challenging Stereotypes in Today’s Recruitment Industry
Jo Major explores how recruiters can become true catalysts for equity and inclusion, challenging performative practices and stereotypes while championing age diversity, candidate development, and authentic transformation across the recruitment landsc
Foreign.Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuaryfor bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood,your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart ofinclusion, belonging and societal transformation.Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyonenot only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone.Join me as we uncover the unseen, challengethe status quo and share stories that resonatedeep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you'resipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let'sconnect, reflect and inspire action together.Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach outto jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.ukto share your insights or to join me on the show.So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time toignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.And today is episode 173 with titleinclusion Starts With Recruiters. And I have the absolute honour andprivilege to welcome Jo. Major Jo is transforming the recruitmentindustry by equipping professionals with the tools and mindset
Joanne Lockwoodhost
to embed equity and inclusion at every stage of the hiring process.When I asked Jo to describe her superpower, she said it is inspiringrecruiters to care more deeply and to think differentlyabout people. Hi, Jo, welcome to the show.
Jo Majorguest
Hi, Jo, thank you so much for having me. I should say welcome
Joanne Lockwoodhost
back because we did actually record this episode with twomonths ago and silly me, I was inthe cutting room studio and I cut too deepon the track and erased you and I gave you a rathersheepish email back and said, I'm really sorry, do you forgive me? And you'vesaid anything to have another chat with you, that's fine. Yes, exactly. This
Jo Majorguest
is a privilege to get to do do this all over again.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Another conversation, and it's been so long since we actually recorded that Ireally don't remember the conversation. So it's a ideal opportunity tomaybe update our thinking based on some ofthe BS that's going on in the world right now and some of the challengesthat recruiters are still facing. What a difference a month makes,
Jo Majorguest
right? It is, yeah. I mean, what difference breakfast
Joanne Lockwoodhost
makes on one day? You know, you start by eating your bowl of cereal andthen by the time you finished it, you're no longer enfranchised in thecountry. Yeah, stuff happens reallyrapidly. We live in very, very interesting times.So you hang out predominantly in the recruitment space andit's mainly what, I guess agency recruiters rather than in house. Is it?
Jo Majorguest
It's more of a mix now. But when I launched the business, mymission was to support the recruitment industryjust because of the responsibility I felt andsaw that the recruitment industry had and alsothe power it has given, how much it's responsiblefor in terms of the job markets and moving people around.So that. Yeah, that's where it all started. And that's my sweetspot as well. Having been an agency recruiter for such a long time,over 17 years, it felt like a sensible move to start ina space where I was familiar and I also could use myselfas that kind of case study because I'd. Although I wasan ethical recruiter, those ethics had been built in me from dayone. I didn't really understand anything about inclusion and accessibilityand equity. It was just that kind of natural part ofme that wanted to do the right thing by humans and for humansto have a good experience of me, but without that kind of thattechnical knowledge and. And confidence.That makes sense. Yeah, no, it does. And I did work in the
Joanne Lockwoodhost
recruitment sector as well as, you know, and I see so manyjust talk about agency recruiters here wanting to beethical. They wanted to do the right thing, they wanted tocreate opportunities for everybody because, let's be honest, itmakes good business sense as well, you know, broaden your. Yeah, it's hardfinding good talent to give to clients on your slate ofoptions. So it does make sense. But I still get frustratedsometimes. It is a bit performative. It's almost like a tick. Yes.We're a diverse and inclusive recruitment organisation.It seems to be a bit of. A trend that, doesn't it? It does, yeah,
Jo Majorguest
yeah, yeah. Some of them are. I think the will is that,and I think a lot of them have taken more ofan interest in D andI because they've been held accountable for it fromtheir clients. It's not unusual for a recruitment business to approachme, as I'm sure you've experienced this as well, when something's gonewrong when it comes to the commercial side of it, they've been kickedoff a preferred supplier list or they've beenrejected for, you know, for a big retained project thatthey were going for because they've not been able to demonstrate their experience, inclusiverecruitment competency and capability. Thereis a. There is a lot of. There's a lot of talk. There is somebox ticking stuff. Unfortunately, you know, we get as much box ticking inthe recruitment industry as we do in the employer space. I think one of thebiggest challenges is thecapacity and the resources to be able to actuallychange the hiring model that recruiters use. And I thinkif you look at, you know, the metrics that recruiters are measuredon the environment that they've got to, you know, got towork in, given a, you know, for example, from a, from a timeperspective, it's not supportive of a properinclusive recruitment process unless you're doing or operatinga retained model. It's very, very different to classrecruiters who are their successes measured and theirperformance is rewarded based on time to hire and speed and itmay be minimal human resources, you know, andmaximum output and then asking them to then integrateinclusion and accessibility and equity into that process, to changethe way they hire, to change the way that they makedecisions, to change, to add extra layers into thatprocess. This is difficult for them to kind of understandbecause they've got all these other responsibilities going on around them andthey're like, we need to slow things down and they're like that. That doesn't makesense to us. We need to speed things up. I get it, I get that.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
One of the questions I often when I'm having conversations, not just with recruiters, otherorganisations, is what are you doing for yourselves? You are tryingto offer these services to your clients,but look in the mirror yourself to start with. What are your ownprocesses? What does your demographic look like? How can you evidence?Because if you're trying to show a better way to your clientand you're not matching that, that lacks the authenticity, doesn't it? I think sometimeswe're recruits themselves are very narrow demographic.
Jo Majorguest
Yeah, absolutely. I think representation is a real challenge for therecruitment industry. It never fails to fascinate me as towhy we have such a, you know, adiverse talent pool as an industry and yet we are pretty. Wecan be one dimensional as an industry ourselves and we don't. Weare not representing the communities that we're here to serveand to recruit, recruit for as our clients and to place.And I think that creates a lot of invisiblebarriers for the recruitment industry and our success. You know, we oftenwonder why certain roles, certain areas, certain certainareas of expertise are hard for us to recruit. And it's like, well,do your recruiters reflect the talent pool that you're wanting to bringinto the organisation? Usuallythat's a hard no. And I think thatwe've moved on from an industry where thekey factor that we looked for in skillset was theability to sell. And I think now that what we'reworking with is the ability to develop relationships,to have the expertise of hiring strategy,a market Job marketing strategy, to be ableto think strategically, to understand how a businessoperates, to understand how all those pestle factors impactour clients and our industry and the movement of candidates. And Ithink that now more than ever we need true business partnersand true talent consultants who properlyconsult. Because I, I think we're moving away while tech's replacingrecruitment as a process. And if we, you know, this, this continual, ifwe're continually selling the basics, I think that's where we're reallygonna struggle. And I, I don't want the recruitment industry tojust be a place for younghomogenous groups. It should be a career foreverybody. There's no barriers to getting into it. So why do we all look thesame? And I think a lot of that is down to the, the working environmentand the culture and the stereotype that we've buil.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I remember a friend of mine who, you know, Bill Borman always said to me,nobody leaves school to aspire to be a recruiter.It's one of those careers you kind of, Most people, I don't wantto stereotype. Most people drop into, they got a salesy background, they've got thisbackground or they somehow get into recruitment. Somehow.Is that part of the problem? People naturally gravitateand it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Recruitersattract recruiters in their image and it's how to break that image down.
Jo Majorguest
Yeah. Isn't it sad that such an interestingcareer path is seen as something that you fall into? Youknow, why do people not choose to go into recruitment whenrecruitment itself can be an incredible profession and anincredible career? And it's like I said, it's something that you don'tnecessarily, you know, the barriers to it, the entry andthe entry levels to it are relatively straightforward to getinto. So. But I think it's because we built thiscaricature of ourselves and in reality, who want,who would ever want to step into that as a role? Andit's my belief as well that we're seen as a temp, as a stepping stone,you know, a role that I might do for a temporary amount of time.And it's like why, why, why has it become sotransactional? Why have we created this careeropportunity where you come in and then you go out and you, youknow, when you tend to come in at a certain point in your life andyou tend to leave at certain point in your life, you know, why, why arewe not professionalising the recruitment industry enough so it actuallybecomes a, you know, a genuine career option?And I think A lot of it is, like I said, this sales caricature whenmy belief has always been that, you know, we. Yes, it is salesto a degree, but it's also a lot more technical. You know,you can sell a concept. Can you sell human beingswith their own minds and their own behaviours and their own, their ownagendas? That's really difficult. Yeah, because it's.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
If you talk about sales, you know, the high street sales would becars, used or brand new cars. You've got estateagents, letting agents, those are the sort of caricatures that pop into your head.But we've got to realise that people are not inanimate objects, are they? They're allunique, they're all different in the same way. A second hand car I guess isunique to a, to that car. You're trying to find afit with it. But humans are different. I think often do. We think asrecruiters there's a whole evolution. Youknow, I look at the recruitment industry, the sourcing people who source they aretechnical geniuses with searching and the deep research andinvestigators. It's a unique skill in their own just sourcing,finding candidates, finding opportunities for people. Then you've gotworkforce planning, you've got OD teams, you've gottalent management, talent development. All that kind of fitsunder the TA banner if you like. In a bigorganisation, agency recruits is just a small element of that.It's the combination of sourcing, placing andevaluating candidates, isn't it? But in a whole strategy, Chris, are far
Joanne Lockwoodhost
more than that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think
Jo Majorguest
I'm seeing. It's interesting, isn't it? Which I'm just reflecting on what you just saidthen. It's like you have like a, you've got avery, very interesting dynamic careerpath as an internal recruiter because there are so many movingparts to it. And yet as an agency recruiterI feel that there's just, you know, there is just one, one pathway.I mean some would argue you could do client facing or you coulddo candidate facing or you can manage people or you don't have to managepeople, you can build out divisions. But it's strange how we just see it maybeas this like one dimensional role instead of actuallyinvesting in the professional developer developmentof our recruiters to go from that, you know, thatjob specification piece to the recruitment,marketing, talent attraction, you know, through to the,you know, to the, to the filling of the roles. And actually why are wenot, how on earth are we not sitting down with recruiters and talking to Themabout organisational design, workforce planning,dynamic employer brand development, EVP developmentand all of that. All of that human stuff, all of that. Thethings that are instrumental in attracting andretaining great people. Why do we. Why are we still justplugging into the very basics of what a recruiter does?
Joanne Lockwoodhost
You mentioned earlier about the consultative approach. That's whereevery agency recruiter wants to be. They want to be seen as a value add,not just a shifter. Yeah. Oh, yeah,we add value. We do this. I think what you just said there is whata lot of agencies, and I'm not criticising anybody here is what they're not doingis they're not interfacing to the business at a strategic level.They're just fulfilling a hiring manager's desire. I wantthis without asking why or can we help? Or can we.Can we understand your brand values better? So we can. We can look at thecandidate profile, as you say, the evp, the recruit marketing basedon who you are, rather than just putting out this bland.I want a Java developer, I want a DevOps programme or whateverit may be without understanding the context of the brand.
Jo Majorguest
I think a lot of it has got. We've also got to think about, like,who's created this and I do think it is. It's the fact thatrecruitment agencies are devalued, I think, by a lot ofclients that, you know, paying them an awful lot of money just to sourceCVs. Essentially. It's not unusual for me to sitdown with recruiters and for them to, you know, we talk about the, you know,the job brief stage and for them to not even be ableto have a meeting with a client about the job, letalone meet the hiring manager, let alone get more than 10minutes with them. And yeah, that client's paying for a service.The payer, you know, they could be paying anything from 5, 10, 15to. Depends on what rates are. And yetthe relationship between the recruiter and the clientis. Said it before, is so transactional,you might as well. Well, you will be able to. You might as well justfeed in a command into a piece of recruitment technologyand pay it 10k. And this is. And I do thinkthe recruiters have got. They've got. We need to thinkabout how do we actually change the perception ofwhere we fit in to the talent attraction strategy. It's.We can say that we are. We add value and we're trustedpartners and splash all that stuff across the, you know, our websites, butthat won't be happening with each and every role that we've got in.There'll be a degree of that, but not with all of them. So how dowe change that relationship between hiring manager andclient and recruiter and for us to truly be seen as businesspartners? I believe it's when we start to evolve and change our services andwhat we actually do and what we actually consult on. Because takinga job brief over a five minute conversation with a clientis not consultation, it's not advisorywork, it's not expertise. It's something that could be picked uplike that by recruitment technology and it's my belief that it will be.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah, certainly you look at some of the ATSs and some of the AI integrationsout there, the platforms are doing a lot of this work for you. AndEven the way LinkedIn is changing its recruitment platform within LinkedInit's making it more easy to self serve, more easy for candidates toamplify themselves and look at fit better. And yeah, Ithink we're seeing an evolution where if not careful agencies will just bea, it will just be going back to being a bucket shop if they can'televate into that consulting. Do the hiring teams want that? Does thein house hiring manager actually want the agencyto consult or are they forcing them into that transactionalrelationship? It's a good question, isn't it? It's almost like we've got to do a
Jo Majorguest
PR job on a lot of the industry and change this perception.I think it will take recruiters talking to hiringmanagers about something different and this iswhere I feel that I really try to push thewhole DE&I and inclusive hiringexpertise as your USP. For us to actuallykeep on top of trends, for us to truly understandall the factors that are influence that, that are influencingour clients hiring decisions, the stuff that's truly keeping themawake at night. Because I sometimes listen to, you know, go to the conferencesand nobody ever really talks about what's keeping clients awake at night. Andwhen they do it's like where did you get that from? Because that's not ana deep dive survey. It's understanding trends and understand actuallysitting down with an organisation at the beginning of the year and asking them aquestion about where they want to be from a diversity and demographicperspective. What, where it, what's their weak points in their hiringstrategy? What upskilling do their hiring managers need? What about,you know, without even being invited to do it, doing a,you know, an audit of their website and their careers page,you can easily access your client's job descriptions at the click of abutton and critiquing them and rebuildingthem and saying, I know you've not asked me to do this,but I've done it and I'd really like to have a chat with you aboutthe results. It's that kind of like proactive. And for some reasonrecruiters are terrified of stepping intoEDNI and recruitment because they think it's political. Weknow it's political, but they see it as this conversation that they've not been invitedto. They don't see it as an enhancement of theirservice capability. And that for me is, you know, is,is, is wild. You know, if TA is saying wecan't make decisions on CVs becausecandidates are using technology far too much andInstead of having five CVs that fit the bill, wehave 500 CVs that are a perfect match of theJD. And we don't, we cannot shortlist. Why arethe recruiters in that conversation going in and going, shallwe have a conversation around how we can change the siftingprocess? What can we do to. Why don'twe do a pilot where we take the CV out of the process? Let's lookat the other things that we can do to help you with this. And Idon't know whether or not they just feel that it's out of their capability orit's, you know, I think there is this tendency to stickto what we've done over the last 10, 20, 30 years instead ofreally ramping it up and being at the same level as the techproviders trying to kick us out.I'm going down rabbit hole with this, but.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
You'Ve probably must have worked more hiring managers than I have in my time atAre we, Are we setting this hiring manager upas some sort of super expert on talent managementbranding diversity? Often a hiring manager in myexperience has been a department head or someone in a department whohas an empty seat or wants to grow his team or her teamor their team, and they may nothire daily, they may hire once or twice a year or maybe everyother year. They're not necessarily match fit in the hiring process.Should, should our agencies, should our external recruiters beinterfacing at a different level in organisation? Interfacing with the DNI team, interface with theHR team, interfacing with marketing and branding or a generaltalent overview team and encouraging theorganisation to maybe have professional hirers? Andthat's a TA business partner, for one of a better way of describing it, wherepeople are professional recruiters. In house as well. Because I think toooften the hiring manager is an amateur hirer. They're a professionalperson but an amateur. Hire a recruiter, right. Their job isn't a recruiter and
Jo Majorguest
they, you know, you're right, you get, they're often given that role thatyou know, through promotional or hiring in and not actuallygiven the skill set. And so the ideal scenariofor me would be to, you know, to even justsend check the basic capacity of hiring managers and seethat as an opportunity to, you know, as recruiters weclaim that we are experts in interviewing. What canwe do to share that expertise and also justbeing able to audit the capability of the TA team and seeingwhether or not we can bring in our professional services that way. There'soften pain points, there's often, you know, gaping holes in a,in our clients recruitment and TA playbook and againwe pride ourselves on being recruitment and TA experts.What are we doing to be able to seek to identify wherehelp may be needed and then adapting our services accordingly andmoving towards offering a whole suite of professional servicesthat go beyond just advertising a role, emailing out thedatabase and going through the recruitment process. Not to simplifythe hiring process because I know it's a lot more than that and I don'twant people throwing rocks at me after they've listened to the test. But I get,you know, I get it's more than that but I think that we're not evenhaving the conversation Joanne around. This is whatwe do and these are our capabilities. Have you ever thought aboutworking with us in a slightly different way? Is it worthexploring? Is that nudging into the RPO space where we are trying to
Joanne Lockwoodhost
be the outsourced partner on this rather than anarm's length agency that is that, is that the blurringoccurring there? I mean maybe we will see more capability
Jo Majorguest
building through, you know, in that RPO offering.I've heard, you know, I've heard noise aroundthat being, you know, being, being a thing. But then Iguess, you know, an RPO model's not, it's not what.They're really good on paper, right? They're really good onpaper and they work for some organisations but theyoften don't deliver on their promises. It's not this transformationalsilver bullet that we always expect it to be. And I don't think younecessarily need, you know, an all singing, all dancing kind of likeRPO model. I just think it's about just inits most basic form, just thinking aboutwhat level of expertise You've got in your organisation what'smissing, bringing it in and then packaging it up. Soyou are almost that one stop shopfor everything modern recruitment needs.You know, you've got. You know, you've got tech capability.You know, recruiters, I feel, need to be recruitment technologyexperts. Right. I know if some recruitment businesses who are not, youknow, where things like ChatGPT are getting banned and they're notallowed to use things like Otter AI, and they're actually being moved awayfrom recruitment technology instead of embracing it. If it was.If I ran a recruitment business today, I'd be sending all my recruiters out,I'd be getting them trained fully on the. They'd knoweverything about the future impact of AI and recruitment technology.I would be wanting them to be the people who have conversationsabout where clients can go to and talk to them about that stuff. Not everyrecruiter, it's not realistic, but a person within the organisationwhose side hustle is AI and technology inrecruitment. Yeah, I agree. I think if you're not using things like
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Otter Read Fathom to capture your meetings,your conversations, and then using AI to process theclient requirements, process the candidate requirements,summarising conversations, keeping meeting notes. If you're not doing thatconsistently, then how can you offer that consultative service?Because you're just relying on that individual point of contact to makeadequate notes. I know people are parochial. IfI kept all this and I make it too transparent, then I'm expendable.I always look at the other way, that the more you should do it, themore you embed yourself because you become a trusted person inside rather than a. Rather
Jo Majorguest
than a. Yeah, but we've spoken a lot, haven't we, abouthow we feel about using technology and AI and whatnot.And I just think that, you know, in its simplest form,it helps to. Could help to transform therecruitment process and free people up to do the important stuff, which is the human.And I just think this goes, you know, hand in hand with a whole rangeof different roles that I think should be within a recruitmentindustry from. I mentioned it before,advisory on things like career pages andemployee value propositions and, you know, all those things that we tend to look atwhen we may be doing a retained search,actually looking at that retained model and thinkinglike, what can we have? Just as a. You know, we might stillbe running contingent, I don't think for long, butwhat can we have on our suite of product offerings for that particularclient's social media? You know, we.We've probably got People within our organisation that are absoluteexperts in tech that I probably don't use from a social mediaperspective, you know, and they're, they're absolutely, they've got an incredibleamount of followers on TikTok and they can create content in five seconds.You know, if you're working with an SME who don't necessarily have thatcapability within their TA team, that is a, for me that is just an absoluteno brainer to be able to say, look, we've got a, got a social mediaexpert. It focuses on candidate engagement throughTikTok. We want to show you some of the campaigns that we pulltogether for some of our clients, you know, and have that in the cell.I'm getting carried away with my ideas here buthere's our tech person, here's our social mediaperson, here is ourEdna, you know, inclusive, accessible hiring person, here is ourskills based, you know, interview trainingexpert, you know, and you've just got this suite of people that just go beyondsalespeople, job fillers, contingent recruitment.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I'm with you though. I completely agree that you need to meetcandidates where they're at in the medium of format and the messaging that they're goingto respond to. And if you look at best recruitment marketing it is using thingslike Snapchat, TikTok, these modern social media tools to getinto markets where traditional, you know, putting an advert at the Timesmay be good if you want to hire a board level non execdirector in a specific sector because they sit there on a Sunday morningreading the vacancies but the average person doesn'tlook at the evening paper anymore or even in specialist job boards.They're on TikTok, they're on these things and if you want to penetrateintermediate psyche, those are where you need to be. And if you're not doing thatnow, you're missing out on that talent because somebody else is, you'renot there, you know that somebody else is definitely doing that. It's getting people tobroaden their thinking here in terms of where do I have to go tofind the fish I'm looking for. I can't just put it in the pond overhere. I've got to think about the entire landscape now.
Jo Majorguest
Yeah, yeah. And I think that's why we need to beinstead of just constantly hanging out in our echochamber as an industry. That's why we need to be like stepping out andactually spending time outside our industry,just really, really understanding howmarketing's changing, how tech's changing.I did a piece. I think it might have been after Weeds Birkenlast time. It's just something that I'm really interested is the differentgenerational attitudes, but between buying andselling. And I'd been asked to do a talk at a conferenceand I thought, you know what? I've done this conference several years in arow. I don't want to talk about the usual stuff. I want to do somethingthat people won't be expecting. And I know that it's a realpain point of the industry at the moment, you know, toretain, especially early careers talent, you know, to get them selling ina way that is deemed success for us asolder generations. So I did a load of research into it. I came up withthis, with this, with this session on understanding, you know,buyer and seller behaviour between all five different generations, actually. Andit was fascinating and it went down really well. And off the back of it,I developed a workshop. And it just really, reallykind of almost just surprisedme in a way because I'm notsome, you know, I'm not some amazing brain that'sjust thinking outside the box constantly. I just think about basic stuff.And it really surprised me that it was so different and it was like.And we'd never. Actually, nobody else was really,really talking about it and that we were still profilingclients as though they were boomers orGen Z xs, you know what I mean? And it's just like, that's me.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Gen Xer. Yeah, Gen Xer. Yeah, me too. And it's like,
Jo Majorguest
I think sometimes we need this diversity of thought.We need to, as an industry, hang out a lot more with our clientsand we actually need to get on, you know, to smashdown this echo chamber of people. The industry's telling the industry whatit needs to do. This is wild. This is group. This is alarge scale group think case study.And I think those that are doing incredibly wellare the ones that have got that board that are full of,you know, are not full of recruitment industry folk, you know, whohave their advisors from their client basewho hang out with their clients. You know,I still find it unbelievable that some of the bigconferences that we see, we never see clients on stage. Jo,why do we never see leading TA expertson our stages? At the Recruitment Expo, for example, Let. Me just turn this
Joanne Lockwoodhost
around. You talked about getting a client. A client isthe person paying the money, which is the company you're providing theresource to. Well, I always get frustrated there's not enoughwork in helping develop candidates.
Jo Majorguest
You know, as soon as you said. That I was like people I know
Joanne Lockwoodhost
all happen to be women in this particular case are what I would call nowlong term unemployed six months plus going on 12.One of them has picked up an entry, Enrol, a short 10 week contract,fixed term contract in the middle of their now back end on the market. AndI see their frustration on LinkedIn. I see them just thanklessly posting thatThey've applied for 400 jobs this week. They've done this, they've done that, they've hadinterviews, they're not getting callbacks. If you keep doing the same thing, you're going toget the same result. If you're not being hired after six months,you have to start looking in the mirror and saying actually it's about what canI do differently? No one's really investing in peopleto make them either more marketable, upskill them, make them more match fit,job ready or even help them explore different opportunities. Do youthink recruiters should also look to the talentand coach them more? You know, because I've always, whenever I've been in the marketI sort of said to the recruiter, what more could I do? What iswrong with my cv? What is wrong with my submission, my coverletter? They go, yeah, it's all right, it's not my, yeah, almost saying it's notmy job to coach you sort of thing. You've got to do the hard workyourself. So who is going to coach those people to get them into work?
Jo Majorguest
I think it's a very, very, very interest of job centre.Crikey, can you imagine? We would be in trouble. Careers, coach,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
whatever we. It's a very, very interesting point and I'm really glad
Jo Majorguest
that you brought it up. And you know, potentially I don't talk aboutthis enough. It reminds me of I've actually gotan ex recruiter, ex hr, moved into HRequipment and Nair's now set up on her own incrediblewoman called Faith Phillips Jones and she's set up her own thisexact. Because this is missing. She set up a coaching companyto work with senior HR professionals.You know, the majority of them tend to be, to be women and she's takingthem through that process where she's looking at, she's not just looking at the cv,she's looking at their personal brand, their social media activity, theirinterview techniques, really kind of critiquing like theirjobs, how they're looking at their job search, how they'remanaging their job search, who they're talking to, who they're not talking to. AndI Absolutely. Think, you know, it's. She's external to anagency and making a business out of that. And the interesting thing is peopleare prepared to. Even when they're not in work or when they'regearing up for a move, they're prepared. Prepared to put in that personalinvestment. And maybe there's this just.It goes back to that, the metrics that we work on as a recruitmentindustry, where we see ourselves makingmoney out of the small percentage of candidates that we canplace and the clients, rather than actuallythinking about this other area, potentially untapped area ofprofessional services for candidates, because there's definitely a marketfor it. But maybe it's because of, you know,we don't necessarily see the value or it might go back to. It might gointo that kind of grey area of we don't charge clients,candidates for our service, you know, and we're governed on that. But it, you know,I don't see enough of it even just from a, you know, from a. Justa candidate support, apart from the basics. Read this downloadable. Watch thisvideo. And actually, if we are seeingwhat I'm predicting is large gaps of unemployment forparticular demographics, there's anopportunity for us to really step in there and coach that group becausethat should be part of our responsibility as well.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
What's there now? You look at the local colleges,the training programmes, the government initiatives, which tends to bewhere it's free because you've got no job, you haven't got hugesums of money to invest, you've spent your redundancy money quitequickly, or if you had any in the first place, and you're living hand tomouth, you're on benefits almost, and the job centre or thebenefits want you to be actively seeking a role, taking whatever's going.You think, well, I don't want to work in a checkout, but I have totake this job, which means I can't then invest my time in finding out. It'schicken and eggs. The government want you to be in work and notpaying you benefits and you then hold out because you want yourideal role. And sometimes you think, hang on a minute, I'm not going to getthis. So you've got to think about your career pivoting, what you can do quickly,haven't you? And it's people need career coaching, I think, and they're notgetting it. Not getting it. And being an entrepreneur myself,I always say to people, are you sure you're sure you want to work forsomebody else? The amount of effort you Put into trying to find that role. Youcould have started a business and you could be earning 300 quid a day.Yeah, you must be able to earn 300 quid a day at doing something. Ithink, oh no, I couldn't work. I gotta, I gotta work for somebody else. Iwant someone to feed me, I want somebody. I don't want the risk, I don'twant stress. Okay, go for it. In a year's time we'llhave this conversation. I can say the same to you. You could start a businessby now and done this on your own. I know, I know. You've got totry and encourage people to think differently. You know, if you take a, let's saypeople earn 40,000 a year. If you're not earning £40,000for one year, that's what I was. My math. Three and a half thousand amonth, whatever it is, how long is it going to take you to recover thatthree and a half thousand a month over the next 10 years of your career?It's going to be ages. So are you better off compromisingyour charge what you need to earn and get in and thengrow your career again? Re baseline yourself£500? £500amonth cut is not actually a500amonth cut. It's two and a half thousand pound you've earned.So you're always thinking, I'm worth more than that. And it's helpingpeople become more realistic about their own expectations, isn't it? Without devaluing them.
Jo Majorguest
Yeah, absolutely. And it's a conversation that I alwayshave as well with people that I've, you know, that I've seen especially,especially more experienced candidates because this is, it seemsto be that kind of, you know, over 50 zone where thatI'm seeing the biggest challenge with, you know, if there's much, much harder,especially, you know, maybe it's just my, you know, my peopleI'm surrounded by, but especially women. And these are people who have theskillset to be able to be going out there and setting up tomorrow and thenetworks to be doing it as well. But I think it is challenging. Youbecome institutionalised into the world of employment, don't you? And it takes anawful lot for you to believe that you've got the capability to run your ownbusiness. And I always say to them, crikey, if I can do it, if Ican do it, then you can do it. And you, you could be,for every month that you spend waiting to get a job for somebodyelse to employ you, you could be doing Your own thing. And you could be.All that marketing you're doing to market yourself as a candidate, you could be marketingyourself as a, as a, a career coach. If you spent a year trying
Joanne Lockwoodhost
to find a role, you know how to be a career coach, you just needto look in the mirror and apply that career coaching to yourself. So you've beenthrough that pain. I think there's lots of opportunities out thereand I'm not saying everyone's cut out to be an entrepreneur. It doesn't suit everybody.And I'm not trying to. I don't want to give that. If I can. Youcan sort of privileged sort of mindset thing. Yes. Yeah, you're right.
Jo Majorguest
Yeah. But we have to be honest to people and say, look, actually
Joanne Lockwoodhost
it's not that you're not employable, you're just not packaged.
Jo Majorguest
Yeah, and we should. Exactly. And that is in the package,whether we like it or not, that, you know, it, it can have a, youknow, a massive impact. If you're somebody that has neglected,say, your LinkedIn profile for the last 10 years and all, youknow, and let's face it, that, that, that isthe window to you and it is for a lot ofindustries. If you're not on that, if you're not on, you know, you can't expectsomebody to find you if you've not got an active profile, you know, onLinkedIn. And I do think there is definitely some, the scope forrecruiters, recruitment agencies to take responsibilitydefinitely for that coaching and give that investment. And in the same waythat I think that we should be where we see, you know,hiring strategy that focuses on the potential, alot of the potential on young people. We should be taking this approachof seeing the potential of people over the age of 50and, you know, and really looking at, like, how can we,how can we take people from the world of work and fromdifferent industries and how can we help them to realise theirpotential by investing for all that time. The vacancies areempty and we're focused, you know, we're scratching our heads wondering how theheck we retain our Gen Z's and our alphas. We could beinvesting in the reinvention of this talent pool here.And you know that they, they, theycould be the future of our business rather than, as, you know, as,like I say, continually trying to reinvent the reelaround wheel around early careers. Perhaps we need kind of like arethink on that. But it is, it's scary. It's worrying me massivelythat this increase in people over the age of 50 daythat I'm seeing really struggle to get back into full time work.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
It's interesting to say that I spoke at a LinkedIn Talent Connect conference,I think it was back in April this year and one of thekeynoters there, I can't remember her name or her company but I remember whatshe said basically is that we are globally thepopulation. We're not having as many babies as we once were. In order to growthe population globally you need to have something like two babies per woman.I think we're now at 1 or 0.75 babies per womannow. Globally our newer generations, our Gen Zs and our GenAlphas are smaller than our millennials and our Gen Xs.We will be millennials will turn 50 in2032 or 2030, something like that. Soat that point there over 50s will become the bulkof our population or working population. So our populationis ageing. We can't retire at 65 anymore. We're goingto be working to 75. Retirement was designed to besomething where you can't work anymore. Not to I've worked hard all my life,now I want to give up and have a rest. It was meant to beretirement pensions were all designed abound. You have to retire because youhave no more capability. So I think we're going to be pushed back into thatworld where for the majority you're going to have to keep working as long asyou can. So that means we're going to end up with a workforce that's between25 and 75 as being our biggestarea. Why do we focus on early careers? Becausewe're investing. We'll get more out of them. They'll stay here for longer. Well ifyou're 55 you might want to work for a company for 5, 10years. You're more likely to stay longer than, than a 20 yearold who wants to career acceleration So I don't think we're look we'regiving the elder generation or the Gen X and the millennialsthe credit where it's due. There are lived experience,capability, retraining opportunities andthey've still got 10 years on them. So why? Because it boils down the
Jo Majorguest
reason why I guess connects in with what we do. It's bias andstereotyping and a lack of like educationand maybe we need to, we need to completely do a thing, you know,a complete turnaround of our future talent programmes.Maybe we are like looking, putting all oureggs into a basket where we're missing like this Massiveopportunity. And also, you know, we maybe as, as businesses we've gota social responsibility because if we, if the biggestgeneration in the workforce or you know, you know, we all, we all, we're allturning, we're ageing at the same time, you know, that is a lotof economically inactive people in the uk.If we don't get on top of, I think changing our mentality andattitude towards mature workers. Mature?Is that even the right word? Experienced worker? Vintage, Vintage,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Classic. Yeah, I don't know. Classic. I mean
Jo Majorguest
I'd employ me at my age, I mean, crikey, I mean, I think we saidthis last time, there is no I would employ the 25 year old me.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I mean I was a nightmare Even as a 40 year old me and youknow, partying, drinking too much, socialising, gaming the system.I turned 60 back in January so I, I'm a vintage worker. I'm in thatsort of right in that sweet spot of opportunity and I know that as a60 year old woman who's trans, I'm way downon the employability scale now. So running my own business, really the only optionI have because I can't walk into a, a hundred grand a yearjob, whatever I want, they're just not there and I wouldn't beconsidered, I'm not. If I was 35 maybe, yeah. But yeah,we've got to start looking at it. That's such a
Jo Majorguest
missed opportunity, isn't it? It's a wild scenario to be in,you know that and I think that's why there's so much work todo, you know, in, in this area and we,we really need to get on top of what I see and accept experience asthe, one of the most commonly accepted formsof discrimination and prejudice. Age discrimination. It is, yeah,ageism. I mean I know as someone who's
Joanne Lockwoodhost
of my age that my, my day, my working day isdifferent than it was when I was 20. My brain operates in differentways. It has activity at certain points, it does thinking at other points, it getsreally creative at other points. But I've learned how to structure my day better,how to do things and have conversations and I'm more mature and more rational,more able to mentor. So I think we just have to look at thatagain, that career arc and that career curve, how you want to describe it andsay where do people who have lived experience, are more mature,have a change in the way their brain works, their needs?We're not trying to buy houses, have families, what we're now trying to do isconsolidate and stability. So we're looking for different things in our careers aswell. And so we're not necessarily go getty growth people,we're maybe bedrock, we're maybe staying.
Jo Majorguest
This is the thing that keeps a business together is that bedrock ofpeople that I call us call them the steady eddies. I thought it was beinga steady eddie, but maybe a wild steady Eddie. Butyeah, we need these people in ourorganisations to, to. AndI think we just need to grow the confidence of recruitersand to be able to have really sensible conversations with clients whenthe focus is on, you know, is on age, whetherthat's direct or whether it's coded language, you know,and I think there's a big, big part, you know, we need to be braveenough to be able to push back. And I know that, I know that that'snot happening and it's that one thing I think applies toall of us because we all age. I'm going to
Joanne Lockwoodhost
stereotype hiring managers now. In my head I'm thinking 30 to35 year old junior manager in a departmentand being 30, 35, they're likely to be less ageinclusive. Just purely, they might be more age biassed against somebody who is over50 because of their own maybe imposter syndrome, their own sort ofconfidence. They wouldn't want someone to come in who is much older than them forfeeling they'd be undermined or et cetera. There's a hell of a lot ofbias going on in that, in that higher manager's sort of mind around oldercandidates. They would rather see someone junior to them in age and experiencethan someone who's more senior in age and experience. And does that,do they feel threatened, do you think? I think
Jo Majorguest
I've always come from the mindset of always hire people that are better than you,you do a much better job. But yeah, I think there is, Yeah, I thinkthere is a. It's all down, isn't it, to a lack of exposure to,you know, to age diversity and, you know, the stereotypeas well. And I think there's got to be, there's got to be some investmentin training and culture of an organisation. Youknow, it's not that just because you're of a, of a, of a certainage and experience, you know, make a decision to come in at acertain level because you've made a decision to come in at a certain level, you'renot going to, you don't. Who joins an organisation going,I'm taking your job, I'm going To sneak in through the back door and I'mgoing to take your job, I'm going to be better than you. I mean, who'dhave the energy for that? I know, I know, yeah. And that
Joanne Lockwoodhost
pressure, that pressure to deliver that. But often it's a
Jo Majorguest
lack of confidence in the manager and it's like, you know,how do we get rid of that? How do we enable them to seethe positives of an age diverse team? How do we get them to,you know, to, to learn how to manage and communicatewith, you know, different generations in their, in their, intheir team? And that's why I'm just like, I'm a little bit obsessed about generationalworkforces at the moment because it's just, I think it's got thepower to, to, to solve a lot of organisationalproblems, staffing problems and social challenges as well.And maybe it's on my mind because I'm massively consciousof my own age and you know, itshouldn't be, I shouldn't have to think, should I write? Okay, things don't go rightwith diversity and recruitment. My only option is to go and work in Morrisons.I'm working in Morrisons. It's lovely but you know, I don't, I couldbring really, really bring my skills elsewhere but then would I get,would I get a job with a startup for example?I mean I'd have to probably put a bit more Botox and filler in Jo,and pretend I'm certain of the younger. I mean what I would
Joanne Lockwoodhost
probably do is take the thought if I can get a job inMorrisons doing a veryworthwhile role that gives me an entry into their career structureand then explore what options there were. So rather than claiming benefitsI can get minimum wage doing something I can for doing a part time rolethere. Suddenly I've got an in in their career structure and their career development.So maybe I, maybe I think more technically I'm looking for a foothold in anorganisation that I want to grow in. Maybe I, I then forge a second careerin retail and become talent management or use my IT skills orget into it somehow. So I think we need to as say coach our,our candidates as to how they can use what they have gotto, to leverage opportunities that are not ideal but a foothold. And Iremember a friend of mine ran a recruitment business 20 years ago andit all went wrong. He went bankrupt and he ended up working forwhatever it was, the Department of Social Security. So he was working on that deskprocessing people's Benefit claims. And overthe last 20 years, he's now grown as a civil servant and he's now asenior manager in the civil service in the heart of government.But he navigated that career growth himself fromwhatever that junior role is in December. I can't remember what the grades are now,but it was basically a second level upgrade. And sometimes youjust gotta take your pride off the shelf. And I was gonna say a lot
Jo Majorguest
of it. This potentially down to your pride and your ego, isn't it?And also this, you know, this social hierarchy ofcareers and jobs, you know yourself, don't you? I know that. I mean,I'm not dismissing work at Morrisons. I genuinely sometimesgo there and I love the vibe so much and be like, this would bea joy to work here. It's just so community based and I justlove talking to people and it'd be great. But I also know me,I know I might go in at, you know, I might be going at thekind of like shop floor level. I mean my, my roots are in retail, butI might go in at that level. But then I know what I'm like, Iwon't be able to stop myself. You know, I'd be putting my ideas forward,I'd be suggesting different ideas and I'd be,you know, probably in rooms that I shouldn't be in, you know, stuff. And Ithink, yeah, it's partly, it's a two way thing, isn't it? It's gettingpeople to like rethink, you know, doing a whole360 in your career. And it might mean you have to start at a differentlevel and you've got to leave your ego at the door and not think aboutthat and also just focus on like what that could, what doors that could openup and then making sure that it works both ways, you know,with the employer and hiring managers. And they're a lot more opento a broader, more diverse range of candidates and talent.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
If you're not careful, it's too easy tobecome unfit in your, in your working career. You know, ifyou're out of work or you're not out of work, you're looking for workfor a whole year, you'll lose that sort of socialinteraction, you lose that sort of employee kind of vibeabout you and you become less employable the more it goes on.And I think, yeah, confidence and other things. And also the world changesa lot in a year. You look at AI and all the other things thatchange in a year, system upgrades, whatever process you're Usingyou become quickly you erode your valueby being out of the work environment for a while as well. AndI remember my father in law, he was afirefighter for most of his career. I think he retired in his50s and he wasn't looking to hang his hat up. And he went to thelocal supermarket, I think it was at Asda before it wasAsda. And he knocked on the door, the manager and said, look, I'd like tobe your backpacker on the checkouts. You know, you don't have a backpacker. Inoticed that sometimes you get the scalps or you get other people along at certaintimes of the year and they pack bags. As a shopper myself, I really likegoing to the checkouts where there are backpackers. I'd like to be your permanent backpacker.And they went, okay, so he gave him a trial and before long hewas kind of embedded in their culture. He was the cheeky chappie, he was the,the people used to queue up, just have a conversation with him. He used tohelp him put the bag in the trolley, take it out to the car forthem. So it's that real value add service he used to do. And thenhe ended up moving to, I think it was to Morrisons or another supermarket andtook his services there as well. And I think that's all died offsince COVID and other things and health and safety and bag and stuff.He, yeah, he created his own careeras a backpacker and he had a great time as a 55to 65 year old. He got him out of the house, gave him purpose. AndI think that's what we're talking about here is giving people passion and purpose, givingthem a worthwhile. Because that's what a role gives you, is youneed to feel you contribute to society in some way. You're not just sat onsofa, you get up in the morning, I've got something to live for. That's, that'swhat employment gives you. Yeah, it does, it does. And let's face it, the
Jo Majorguest
job, searching for a job can chip away, it canchip away from your, you know, your self esteem and your confidenceand rejection and the lack of communication. Itcan, you know, you, you can leave your current role there, youknow, from an emotional and mental health perspective and then, you know, and be much,much lower down on the scale as, as the months go by.But I mean, you know, it's, it's, it's, I think fromreally thinking about this, it's very much, there's a lot of work to do.And I think from a, both a candidate and from a client perspective and, youknow, going back to the role of, ofagencies and actually I would ask therecruitment industry, what are you actively doing tocreate communities within that more mature, morevintage workforce? You know, I know recruitmentbusinesses that spend money on upskilling early careers, talentand giving them qualifications in technology andet cetera, that could, that, that, that blueprint could betransferred to any community. I've
Joanne Lockwoodhost
seen organisations b. Marie, other organisations talk abouttalent academies. So you, you, you know, if you're trying to recruitinto, you need more people in this sort of sector or this part of yourbusiness. Bring people into an academy, develop them likea mature apprenticeship. You pay people properly, you pay people tolearn. So you're giving them a decent wage, a living wage, nottreating them as 2 pound 50 people, you're treating them as 15 pound, 20 peopleand then help them develop their career. And then what you're doing is you're not.Not developing people for your organisation, you're developing better peoplein the community. So you may bring on 50 people in your talentdevelopment programme each year and you only want 10 of those yourself, but you've got40 people there you've put into the community. If you and otherorganisations network locally and you pool yourtalent development programmes and you co sponsor with someNHS trusts or with some infrastructure, public services or the organisation,then you're providing a valuable community service benefit. Not justapprenticeships, but mature workforce. I think someoneneeds to take responsibility for that, that kind of communityengagement. I think, and also really, really
Jo Majorguest
have their eye on the data as well and really understandwhere people go and how long people stay. And Ithink that you could track your return on your investment andvery, very easily in this particular area, with this community,Without a doubt, I've been. Retention, retention, retention. Yeah, yeah. If you
Joanne Lockwoodhost
just look at retraining, cost, retention, empty seat stability, lostknowledge that walks out the door when it leaves, all these kind of things. Have
Jo Majorguest
you seen, I mean, when you just said something then about like, you know, almostlike an apprenticeship model for people looking to transitionin their careers, you know, and I'm wondering, have you seen, have you,have you seen that happen anywhere? I've seen organisations doing it. I know
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I've been to a lot of conferences where they put people on the stage andthey talk about their own internal talent development,looking at alumni programmes, people who did work there, they keep in touch. Tenyears later, where are you? You left to start a family. How's that goingbig career pivots, returning mothers, returning fathers, returning peoplein their workplace, in their 45, 50 bracket. So I thinkI have seen organisations start to focus on this later yearstalent development, mid career pivoting. So, yeah, it's being thought about.And I think when we talk about diversity in recruitment, which is what your organisationis, we can't just try and solve our bit of the problem. We've got tosolve the pipeline problem as well and nurture that.Otherwise all we're doing is. I hear so many people tell me it's so difficultto find, it's so difficult to find a great black lawyer.I said, well, you ask a black lawyer where to find a great black lawyer,he'll know or they'll know. If you ask a white lawyer where you find agreat black lawyer, they may not know. So you've got to ask the people whoare in those communities. So if you're not reaching deep and reaching out,you're missing out on opportunity. And I think we all want to develop talent, weall want to create the best workforce. How can we be more innovative about creatingthose talent pipelines in our communities and not just expect the talent towalk through the door? It doesn't. Or if it does, we don't recognise it. Yeah,
Jo Majorguest
yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't. It never, if it was thateasy, our organisations would be fully representative ofeverybody in our communities. Right. And it's, I think that's whereit lies is the fact that there has to be an investment. There needs tobe resources and it needs to be, there needs to be, youknow, it needs to be treated as a long term project. It's not justa, you know, you can't just put your, I always joke, you can'texpect to put your job description through a gender decoder andthen all of a sudden having your door being banged down by loads of likesenior women wanting to work for your organisation. And you know, in some of it,I, I, you know, I've, I've worked with businesses where they're a particularemployer. I'm thinking about where they're absolutelylaser focused on women. And yet when, you know, Ideliver the idea around, okay, this would be a long termstrategy. It's almost, we just need more money, you know, we just,you know, and I can, I can, I can tell the responses, I've justgiven you a lot of work to do and that's going to be really difficult.But gender decoders, as useful as they may be,they don't change the world. Jo, it's been absolutely
Joanne Lockwoodhost
fascinating chatting to you again and I really enjoyed this conversation.So we spun it around from diversity and recruitment, from an agencyperspective, an in house perspective and also the talent development of what we astalent professionals, if you like, can do to reach out to nurture better talent. SoI've really enjoyed this. It's been fascinating. Thank you. How can people get a holdof you? LinkedIn is the place that I tend to hang out. So Jo Major,
Jo Majorguest
you'll find me with various opinions about a lot of things. And
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I follow you and yes, your opinions are great and I love, I love seeingyour posts. So yeah, do follow Jo. She is amazing. Thank
Jo Majorguest
you so much and right back at you. In a way, is it wrong thatI'm kind of thinking, just don't be too sharp on the editing, I might wantto come back. I always welcome guests back. If you listen to
Joanne Lockwoodhost
this or yourself, there's a process. You click on the button says Apply,you fill the form in, you get a link back in your inbox, youclick on it, you book an appointment. Let's do it. And so yeah, always. Andmaybe what we do, we'll do a live stream sometime. Just, we'll just get onLinkedIn and just do a live stream and we'll just do this live rather thanrecording. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Love that. Thank youand thank you. Take care. See you later.As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to expressmy deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lendingyour ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing toInclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing communitydriving real change. Share this journey with friends, family andcolleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter.Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm allears. Reach out tojo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.ukand let's make your voice heard. Until next time, thisis Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return withmore enriching narratives that challenge, inspire andunite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world oneepisode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.
In this thought-provoking episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood is joined by Jo Major to explore why true inclusion in the workplace must begin with recruiters. Together, they deconstruct the performative side of diversity and inclusion in recruitment, highlight why making systemic change is more than just paying lip service, and consider practical ways recruiters can influence equitable hiring. The conversation moves beyond rhetoric to uncover barriers created by conventional recruitment, the vital role of representation in the industry, and the power of broadening the recruiter’s remit from simply “filling seats” to properly consulting on organisational talent strategies. Joanne and Jo examine why focusing solely on early careers narrows the talent pipeline and challenge the industry to provide greater support for jobseekers, particularly those facing age discrimination or returning to work mid-career.
Jo Major brings over 17 years’ experience as an agency recruiter combined with her expertise in advancing equity and inclusion across recruitment practices. Founder of an organisation dedicated to transforming the industry, Jo equips both agency and in-house professionals with knowledge, tools, and the confidence required to embed inclusive practice at every stage of the hiring process. Her passion lies in inspiring recruiters to genuinely care about people and to question established methods. Jo’s perspective is shaped by her personal journey from ethical but uninformed recruitment to a deeper understanding of inclusion and accessibility, and she is committed to helping the industry move past box ticking towards real change.
Through their candid exchange, Joanne and Jo discuss generational perspectives on hiring, innovative talent pipelines such as mature apprenticeships and alumni programmes, and how recruitment agencies can act as true business partners by advocating for both client needs and candidate development. The episode urges recruiters to challenge bias, leverage technology meaningfully, and step out of industry echo chambers.
A key takeaway from this episode is the recognition that the path to genuine inclusion starts with how recruiters mirror the communities they serve and the ways they consult with their clients and candidates. Listeners will leave with a renewed sense of how recruitment, when done purposefully, can dismantle barriers, create diverse opportunities, and drive sustainable inclusion far beyond compliance.
The views and opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of Inclusion Bites, SEE Change Happen Ltd or Joanne Lockwood. This episode is shared for general interest and discussion; we accept no responsibility for the accuracy or completeness of any statements made.
