Turning Stuttering Into Strength: Empowering Voices and Challenging Stigma
James Burden explores the journey from stuttering to self-acceptance, challenging stigma and shedding light on how creating safe spaces empowers professionals to transform difference into strength and foster genuine inclusion.
Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuaryfor bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood,your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart ofinclusion, belonging and societal transformation.Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyonenot only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone.Join me as we uncover the unseen, challengethe status quo and share stories that resonatedeep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you'resipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let'sconnect, reflect and inspire action together.Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach outto jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.ukto share your insights or to join me on the show.So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time toignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.And today is episode 179with the title Stuttering Without Apology. And I have theabsolute honour and privilege to welcome James Burden.James is a speech language pathologist and the founder ofStuttering Blueprint, empowering professionals who stutterto lead with confidence and connect withoutcompromise. And when I asked James to describe his superpower,he said it is creating safe spaces where stutteringbecomes strength, not silence. Hello, James, welcome tothe show. Hi, Joanne, thank you so much for having me.I understand from where we were chatting just now it's early o' clock for youbecause you're based Pacific time on the UScontinent, aren't you? Yes, that's right. So
James Burdenguest
I'm from Vancouver BC originally and I still live there. That'smy home base. But right now I am living in Mexico for the lastcouple months, on my way to Peru soon. So I lovedoing what I do and I also love doing it while travelling and seeing theworld because it really brings some depth tomy, my service and I like to go to places that havea lot of sort of spiritual, interesting things to do. So I.I got to go and do different ceremonies with different indigenouspeoples all over the world, which is not something to do with my stutteringprogramme, but is very much to do with what Ifind valuable. Wow, that sounds fascinating. I can't wait to get to
Joanne Lockwoodhost
that. One of my claim to fames is I've been to Mexico by mistakeand you might wonder how one could go to Mexico by mistake. Well,it's quite easy when you're driving down the aisle in California and you're not payingattention and then suddenly there's a sign that says last US Exit and itdisappears behind you. The next Sign you see is welcome to Mexico. It'slike that wasn't the plan. So it took like 30 seconds to get into Mexicoand it took about three hours to get back out again through border control. Sothat's my claim to fame Mexico by mistake. Luckily we happened to have thepassports in the car. So you were there for all
James Burdenguest
three hours? Yeah, you just end up queuing up out of
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Tijuana to try and come back in. It's like, yeah, I guess itwas the spring breakers or the college students were all out in force trying toqueue back because it was a whole roll of us platedcars trying to get back in. So, yeah, we were, yeah, we were kind ofokay. But yeah, we're a bit worried for a bit because we were lucky tohave our passports. Just happened to have them in the glove compartment, the car. Sowe were lucky. But yeah, could have been fun. Yeah. So that's my claimto fame Mexico by mistake. James, we were chatting again in thegreen room before we went live. Around stuttering andyour masterclass in your programme, what triggeredyou to focus on stuttering and speech in the way youhave? Well, my focus on
James Burdenguest
stuttering speech came just from an interest inspeech and language, from learning Spanish years ago andfinding it fascinating the similarities between Spanish andEnglish, the words that are similar. So I got interested in linguistics. Ialready had a psychology degree and then the, the idea of speechpathology came up and I'm like, wow, that's a great combination of both. SoI put all the effort into getting into grad school, which wasn't easy, still isn'teasy to become a speech language pathologist. It's very competitive, but Imanaged to get in. And then during grad school at one of mypracticums, I started, I went and did a practicum at Columbia Speechand Language Services in Vancouver and they were doing a 10day intensive stuttering workshop. And this is the firsttime I had come across people who stuttered in a professionalsetting. And when I met everybody, they all came in,they had quite intense stutters and I, I very quickly got used tohearing that, so it wasn't quite so scary ordifferent. I, I didn't feel as uncomfortable as I think a lot of people feelwhen they hear it. And then over those 10 days, these 10 peoplewent from stuttering intensely toalmost completely fluent. And some were completely fluent. It was, it wasan incredible transformation andI was, I was impressed by this. I decided this, this issomething I wanted to do in so much in speech Pathology is,you know, making little ripples and, and hoping those turn into bigwaves later. But this was a massive change in a shortperiod of time and I, I found it very satisfying. However,there's a little bit more to this story when it comes to working juston fluency. But I'll, I'll circle backaround to that in a minute because it's important for inclusion.But for this story, I see these people have thismassive transformation. I changed my graduate paper,graduating paper topic so that I could follow this up. And I was verylucky in that one of my professors was aclinical professor and a speech language pathologist who specialised instuttering. And so she took me under her wing aftergraduation. She started giving me clients for stuttering fromher overflow. She mentored me. I picked up a couple othermentors along the way in those first few years. So I got todo in a one on one setting what I'd seen done in this intensivesetting. I also discovered this programme called Camperdown,which is from Australia and it's using the same method, theprolonged speech method as well we used in the intensiveprogramme. But now it could be done in a once a weeksetting and send clients home with practise. And then it alsotransferred very well when the time came to doing itvia zoom. So very powerful method, making bigchanges. As I started to see those changes, I started to feelvery comfortable, very good at this. I'm like good at helpingpeople become fluent. I'm very comfortable aroundpeople who are stuttering. And one of the most interesting partswas almost like a therapist effector a placebo effect that would be like when peoplecame in and even when they had just started to begin to work withme, they started to relax right away. And Ithink that came from being in a placewhere stuttering is okay. Being in a place where stuttering isaccepted, we're accepting it. At the same time, we're trying tomake it easier to speak. Speak. And that's always been kind of. Myattitude is let's make it easier to speakrather than let's fix you, let's make sureyou don't stutter so that you'll be okay. Because I don't believethat stuttering makes someone not okay. So removing the shame and
Joanne Lockwoodhost
the stigma and the awkwardness, taking away the pressureto be perfect. Exactly. And what is perfect
James Burdenguest
anyway is a little bit ofstuttering here and there. I mean, we all do it sometimes. The differencebetween someone who stutters every once in a whileand someone who Stutters a little bit more isthat if that stuttering starts toaffect their mindset, like, oh my God, there's something wrong with me,I, I don't speak right. And they're getting messagesfrom well meaning family, maybe even well meaning teachersor not so well meaning peers, you know, in school getting teasedor bullied. They're getting the message over and over that stutteringis not an acceptable way to speak. And once that takesroot, it can really blossom into a not so pleasantplant that just affects the way theyinteract with the world. And so we're trying not to,trying not to stutter. And in avoiding it, in avoiding the
James Burdenguest
stutter we start, people start to avoid importantspeaking situations, making, not putting themselves out there. Maybe on aprofessional level, it might be job interviews or it might be evenapplying for certain types of jobs because if I can't speak, Ican't do that job. I could never be a lawyer because they have to speak.I could never be a, a politician orwhatever it is. And yet we know that's not true because in the USJoe Biden, who was the most powerful men in on the planet fora number of years, was a person who stuttered or isa person who stutters. So there's a lot of myths thatget in the way. That is a big part ofmy masterclass that I will share the link with you later.How to break those myths. But also in themasterclasses, how to speak more fluently from a place of I'malready enough. I'm just trying to work on myspeech, not I need to work on my speech in order to be enough. There'san important fine distinction there. Is there a root
Joanne Lockwoodhost
cause? Is it childhood trauma? Is it just adevelopmental difference? Is there something thattriggers your language development, if you like, or your speech development thatcan make you more susceptible to developing a stutter orstammer or speech impairment. That
James Burdenguest
is the billion dollar question, because so much,and I say that literally, I don't know exactly how much money has gone intoresearching that exact question, what causes stuttering. Butwe still don't have a definitive answer.And when we don't have a definitive answer, it usuallyleads to the conclusion that it's just a normal part of beinghuman. And that is what came out in2023. There was a forum of some of thebiggest names in stuttering treatment. MarkOnslow, Barry Guitar, Rosalie Shenker,others. Now these are people who literally wrote textbooks.Barry Guitar wrote my textbook in grad school forstuttering and in this forum it's a discussion overstuttering as a neurodivergence. It'snot it. And it follows a neurodivergent pattern. Itaffects all different cultures at the same rate. It is a little bitmore common in men than in women, butthat could easily be a reporting issue becauseof the pressure on women to conform a little bit more insociety or maybe a lot more. The masking abilities might be there.Now I can't necessarily prove that one, but what we seereported is a 4 to 1 ratio of men to women. Stuttermore, men stutter more. That's people who are identified at birthas men or women or male or female. But,and, and, and so this neurodivergent neurodiverseangle is I think incredibly powerful because as asociety we are learning to accept that wehave people with different kinds of minds, ADHDminds, people with autism, people who areleft handed, and alsoin this case stuttering. That's very interesting. You say that happens across languages and I,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I suppose that never, never occurred to me. I just always in my headimagined a stutter in English. But I guess,yeah, it happens in Chinese, it happens inIndian, Punjabi, whatever. It just, I guess the wordsmanifest themselves differently because often in English it's certainletters that trigger, isn't it? Is it the same soundsthat trigger or is it, what's the commonality between.Because often people get stuck on the T's or the S's or something orcertain words. Are there certain words in different languages that also trigger.
James Burdenguest
You know what, that's another great question because what itturns out to be, it's usually a bit of a self fulfillingprophecy. The sound that an individual is going to stutteron. Now the way it usually works is something like this.Some big stutter happens on a certain letter thatresults in an embarrassed feeling. So thenext time that letter comes up for that person in a highstakes situation, they're expecting to stutter. And loand behold they do. Because they, their body getsmore tense. They, they're expecting this to happen.They, they, they sort of tense up and then it does. And thenthat is proof that it's that letter that is the problemand it just compounds from there. Andusually it's not always this way. But a very commonletter for someone to stutter on is the firstletter of their name. Because they have had anexperience where they've tried to introduce themselves, they've stuttered and thensome smart person has said, what did you forget your name? Becausethat's such a classic thing to say when someone stutters on their own nameand people don't realise how harmful that can be and howhurtful. Even though it seems like an innocuous joke, itis not an innocuous joke if you're very sensitive andunderstandably so, considering how people treat stutterersabout stuttering and not wanting to stutter where people can hear you. So
Joanne Lockwoodhost
as a listener or the other part of a conversation andsomebody is struggling, however we would describe that,what should I do to be a better listener and to help thatperson over the situation? Should I. Obviously I shouldn'tbe speaking for them. I shouldn't be interrupting them, I shouldn't be completing their sentence.How should I react? You're absolutely right with the not
James Burdenguest
interrupting and not completing sentences. That's. If there. If there weregonna be rules, that would be rule number one. The best thingto do is simply wait and listen and just bepatient and keep looking at the person. AndI think more importantly is what we're doing hereis advocating that stuttering is not a disorder,it's not a disease, it's not a neurologicalproblem, it's not a tick. It's simplythe way that this portion of the population,1%, which is much, much bigger than most people wouldrealise, how many people that stutter, that's simply the way that they talkand that it's okay. And if you understand that deepinside as the listener, makes it a lot easier notto have to, like, remember all the rules about how to talk to aperson who stutters. You just know that it's okay and you don't have to worryabout them and they're fine. They're just doing their thing. It's just going to takea couple extra seconds. Sometimes it's going to take even longer. But ifyou wait, the message will come out. And you don't have tosay anything like, it's okay, I'm waiting. You don't have to,like, draw attention to it in any real way. You're just. You're just payingattention like you would to anyone who is taking a little bit longer to saysomething. Yeah. As you're talking now, I'm just thinking, how would I react in the
Joanne Lockwoodhost
situation? And I'm thinking all these emotions and things are flyingaround my head going, oh, do I feel. So am I feeling sorry for thatperson? Maybe I am. Maybe I'm feeling a bit of empathy. Maybe I'm feeling abit of compassion, benevolence. I want to say they're there. It's okay. Don'tworry. I want to help them and reassure them, but I also,in my head is, don't draw attention to it. Be patient. Don't look like I'mbothered. But it's trying to find that middle ground, isn't it?Just a blank stare and kind of a vacantsmile, tilting your head to one side and going, I'm waiting on the inside. I'mwaiting on the inside. Keep going. And I'm just trying to think of howI can learn myself to create the rightlistening face, the right listening mode to notadd to the pressure. I think that when we know that there's
James Burdenguest
nothing wrong, it's not a sign of anything. It's not asign of lower intelligence, it's not a sign of aneurological problem, it's not a sign of a disease oranything, then it takes the pressure off us to, to looknormal, look normal, everything's okay. Also,when I said don't draw attention to it, I think that'sabsolutely fair. When talking to adults, we. We don't need to tell themthey're okay or, or. Or give them a pat or, or feel sorry foranyone. What we. ButI. That. That doesn't necessarily mean. Let'ssay you've got a young child who stutters. I'm notsaying don't talk about it because that just makes it into theelephant in the room. When we, when we don't talk to a childabout their stutter at all, then we're sendingthe message, this is so bad that we can'teven talk about it. I remember experiences when I wasyoung. Nothing to do with stuttering, but, like, the things that we don't talk aboutare the worst possible things. We don't talk aboutUncle John because, you know, in his drinkingproblem. Just don't talk about it. Never mention it, you know, like it. Those
James Burdenguest
are the things in families that are a signthat it's really, really bad. So I don't suggest thatparents don't talk to their children about stuttering if that starts tohappen. There's also a lot of, like,typical developmental stuttering that may comeand then go just on its own. Andif it goes fine, if it stays also fine, there areother ways to deal with it. And I don't mean deal with it as infix it. I just mean ways to interact with your child. Imean Palin pci. So Palin parent child interactionis actually based out of the UK where you're located. And it's From MichaelPalin. And I love Michael Palin's story. You remember himfrom Monty Python. Monty Python, yeah. Great fan of Michael Payne. Sohe did a movie called the Fish Called Wanda manyyears ago where he played a stutterer. Yes, he did. Andhe was the comic relief. And after the movie aired, a stutteringorganisation came to him and said, hey, you've actually done usa disservice. You know, you're putting up stutterersas people to be laughed at and mocked. And he was sostruck by this that hefounded the Palin Institute for Stuttering.He has done more for stuttering than anysingle other person I can think of off the top of my head. Youknow, he founded this institute, he's put money into research and more important,he's put money into therapy. And so I did one ofmy trainings. I did, I flew to Boston andpeople from the Palin Centre flew into Boston as well. And I spent a weeklearning about Palin Parent Child Interaction Therapy, whichis very different from the Lidcombe method. So Palinpci, or Parent Child Interaction, teaches howyou interact with your child on a. You get down to their level,you learn how to play with them by commenting instead of asking a bunch ofquestions. Now, it's interesting. I'm talking a lot nowabout how to help a young child. Mycurrent focus and the focus of mymasterclass is on adults. It's likehow especially professionals, entrepreneurs,people who are. Have a lot of skin in the game and needtheir speech to advance their careers or advancetheir business or whatever they're working on, go after theirgoals. So that's what I'm focusing on now. But I've workedwith all ages. I've worked with adults, I've worked with teenagers,I've worked with school age kids and I've worked with preschool kids,pretty much everybody. So I'm giving you guys some information about whatto do if you're a parent and you're worrying about your child starting to stutter.But, but most of what I'm. My, my masterclass isfocused on the adult. So if you're a person who stutters as anadult, definitely check it out. It'll give you more abouthow society andhow the stigma has made thingsharder for you on a level that I'm sure you understandif you're a person who stutters, but how it's actually affectingyour speech and by going underneath the iceberg.
James Burdenguest
So Joseph Sheehan, a longtime stutteringadvocate, person who stutters and a therapistTalked about the stuttering iceberg. And so the top of the iceberg is thestutters that you hear and maybe avoidance behaviours thatyou see like I'm not going to talk in this situation, I'm, I'm going toavoid this word. I'm going to do everything I can to avoidspeaking or avoid stuttering. Butunderneath the iceberg is thethoughts, the feelings, the self judgement,the myths about stuttering. All of the parts that affectyour mind and your soul and createthose surface behaviours. So if we aretensing up, we're more likely to stutter.If we are afraid that we're going to stutter, we're more likely toavoid. So the way to reallyhelp in the long run and not only help butprovide lasting support is to melt thaticeberg. So take that to warmer water. And by warmer waterI mean an environment like a therapy room like with me,where you start to feel accepted for your stutter. AndI also like to get people together who stutter so thatthey can see other people who stutter, see how completely normal itis. Completely, um, okay. And becausepeople judge themselves insanely, hardly insanelyhard, but then they see somebody else and they're not anywhere near asjudgmental. So we can learn not to judge someone else. Then we can learn toturn that around on ourselves. And this is where it kind of gets into almosta, like a spiritual aspect. Like when, when.Because I used acceptance commitment therapy as part of myprogramme and that's about like turning that light ofconsciousness back on yourself and looking at yourself with kindness and alack and non judgement. And that's what act is about. It'sabout deciding what your values are.What is more important to me, not stuttering or going for what Iknow I can do and deserve. And at first it's going to be notstuttering is more important. But then as we begin tonot judge we can move that down and begin to see that maybe goingfor the job interview is more important, maybe building abusiness is more important. Maybe talking to the man or woman thatyou're interested in is more important than not stuttering andslowly working towards those goals. You're putting yourvalues in a new order. Yeah, I can certainly relate to the
Joanne Lockwoodhost
internalisation and manifesting your,manifesting all of the stereotypes, all of that self loathingall at once in your head and putting yourself in situations whereyou can't stop by being wholly consumed that cognitiveload of worry that you're gonna, the first thing that's gonna comeout of your mouth is gonna be a stutter. So I can certainly understandhow that limits people's ability to interact in society.Because you say, as you said earlier, what we have is thisstigma and is there an opposite of normalisation,denormalization, where you're in society and society treatsyou less fairly because of that speech impairmentdifference and you're hyper awarethat you don't want to feel foolish, come across foolish. If you're in ajob interview, think, well, you, you're almost walking into the room go, theywon't like me if I started with this. Pressure's on you to get it right,isn't it? You know, when we dig down deep
James Burdenguest
underneath the. I don't want to look foolish underneath,the pressure is. And people may not necessarily feelthis consciously, but if you dig down deep, there's asense of not being right, being brokenin some way. And are you familiar with Brene Brown's work? It's. Yes.So she talks about shame, and shame isa big, heavy word. And when she talks to be like a shame researcher, whowants to talk about that? Nobody. Right. And soI'm going to go there when it comes to stuttering, because I believeat the deepest root of it all, there's a shame for being broken.And stuttering is something that has all of thethings Brene Brown talks about that make shamethrive, which is silence,secrecy and judgement. So when you have thosethree things, shame thrives. So people are trying tokeep silent, people are trying to keep theirstutter secret and they're judging themselves and peopleare judging them or they are perceiving that people are judging them.Now, I'm sure there is absolutely, undoubtedlyprejudice in the world, but I would say the. The harshest critics of peoplewho stutter are the people who stutter themselves and not toother people who stutter to themself. Themself.They. They judge themself. And so then shameis thriving. And I've talked about shame asbeing like poop in the pool. So it doesn'tmatter how much poop is in the pool, no one's goingswimming. It could be like the tiniest fleck. AndI'm not saying stuttering is poop. I'm saying that the shamearound it is like that it contaminates people'sentire world with this ideathat they're not good enough,that no one will want to swim in this pool because I'mbroken. So I really need to. What I dois I try to help people with that piece whilesimultaneously working on the speech. But when we work onthe speech, we have to work on it in a way that isnot about fixing you. It's not about if youspeak fluently, then you're okay.No, it's you're okay and I can help and by feelingokay, it will help you speak more fluently. So what are they kind of the
Joanne Lockwoodhost
basic techniques to help you speak more fluently because you wantto, not cause there's any shame or stigma, but because you want to. What the.What the kind of technique? So there are many.
James Burdenguest
There are many different approaches. The one that Irecommend using, it's a little bit more involved,but it has most lasting results and it has the most science behindit. And that's the prolonged speech family of methods.And now you could do an intensive programme, but it's like. That's like theone that I did when I was in grad school, which is the 10 daysand you're really hammer at it. Or you can do Camper down,which. And what. What you do in these programmes is
James Burdenguest
Camper down works like this. There's a video, I haveone on YouTube and there's plenty of others out there where youwatch me or whoever the speaker is, speak at it in anincredibly slow, connected, flowy kindof a way. Much in the same way like you would learn toswing a golf club or swing a baseball bat,slowly at first, very slow, just to get themuscle memory and then speed it up over time.And it ends in a kind of a flowy way of speaking thatsounds like this. Now I'm overdoing it a little bit sothat you can hear. But then when you speed it up, it sounds prettymuch typical. Like it sounds like a typical speaker. But what we'redoing is we're keeping our voice activated. So that'sthe here, so that stays activated. And we're making sure eachword flows into the next so that it has this sort of flowiness to it.And once we. You practise with the video andyou work with me to speed that up over time and stillmaintain like a natural cadence. Sowhat can be challenging is as people are learning this, they might end upsounding like this for a minute. And then you have to learn how to,okay, let's re. Add in inflection and re. Add in tone andpitch. And until it sounds naturalfrom there, it needs to actually be used.Well, what, what I'm noticing right now with my. One of my currentclients is that she's startedto learn this method. And she's also beentracking her daily stuttering and we'rewatching it going down and I have a. I won't get into, like, how wetrack it exactly, except that it's like it's her feelings about her stutteras opposed to exactly what it sounds like. Because what's more importantis how people feel about their speech than it is whatother people actually hear. So for her,she's. We. She's only been with me about three, fourweeks now. I think we just hit week four and she's doingamazing. She's. Her stuttering is reduced a great deal.She's putting herself out there more than she ever did beforeand she's feeling really good about it. And that's before we've even finished theprogramme. What we're going to be doing now istaking what she's learned and going and trying itout with different people. So we startwith the easy ones, you know, friends and family. Using this technique for
James Burdenguest
speaking with friends and family and then trying itout with people that she doesn't know quite so well, eventuallygetting it towards where she'll be doing alittle bit of public speaking. Not huge public speaking, but just like in front of,like, a group of people. Not like on stage, justlike at a party, say. And then each time we're.We're kind of combining this acceptance, commitment, therapy approach,putting what is most valuable to you withwhat is. So what are your goals for your speech and thenmoving up this hierarchy. So she's doingamazing. She's only having to work on this for 15 minutes a dayand she's already in a month in. She is. Her mindset haschanged a huge amount. She's learning. Not that she doesn't haveto be perfect in every single situation because, like, we've beentalking about stuttering doesn't mean there's anything wrong, so. Andalso speech. What. What people don'trealise. We are all naturally good at speaking ashumans, right? So if a cat is agile andgood on its feet, we have a natural ability to talk.But the fine motor coordinationthat is required to speak isenormous. We have to. We have to coordinate our lips,tongue, lungs, jaw, vocal folds, allin real time, while simultaneously processing language. Andthen when there's a little interruption in that, we think we might thinkto ourselves we're not a good speaker. But this is like a tiny blip inan incredibly complex machine thatpeople don't realise. And then people are tracking fordanger. They're worried that they're Gonna stutter. So that justinterrupts the machine even more. And the pressureis what my current client is, one of mycurrent clients is learning to release. So releasingthat pressure, learning to speak in a new way, trying it outin new situations. And again themasterclass kind of breaks it down in more detail than I.Then we have time for here. But that being said, it's, it's only a19 minute masterclass. It just very quickly will runyou through all of the ways that your mindset isaffected and how that actually affects the speech directly.So it's not just us sitting around holding hands, singing Kumbaya, sayingyou're okay because you stutter. It's by doing thatit gen genuinely affects the way we speak.It's, it's much more than just feeling good about ourselves.It's about how to speak more fluently because youfeel good about yourself. You mentioned at the beginning that about 1% of the population
Joanne Lockwoodhost
will have a stutter some of some shape or form globallyacross ages and disproportionately men over women. I would say.Well, I'm guessing it's far more prevalent for people to have differentspeak speech artefacts for want of a better way of describing them in termsof filler words. The ums, the ahs, theI know I speak and I often repeat a wordas thinking time. So I would go I, I, I or and, and, and, andI would have those kind of artefacts in the way I speak.And I often when I'm reviewing the transcript I see thewords stacked up and I think well that was me revving up for the nextsentence if you like. Can the techniques you're using here helpthat those artefacts as well as a stutter orare they different attributes of the mind here? Well, what you're talking about is completely
James Burdenguest
natural for all of us. I do it, you do it. Thoselittle like I just did right there, like the, I'm like givingmyself time to process language and this is whatgets mixed up into something that wouldbe what we call stuttering versusnormal disfluency. Those things get mixed up in together.And yes, a lot of the techniques, the slowing way downtechnique and then speeding up, that's more forfluency, that is more for stuttering. But a lot of the other kindsof things that we learn in my programme are pausing,slowing down on your main point. All of the naturalgood public speaking techniques also help you stutter less.And you, you talked about likethese things happening when you'reunder stress or when you're trying to speak in apublic situation, maybe on a podcast. Right now, like as I'm processingwhat I want to say, I'm having to slow down. And if Idon't slow down then I'm going to do the ums and the ahs.Another factor for the ums and the odds for people who stutter is sometimesthey're using them to cover a stutter.I know I can say this certain phrase fluentlyevery time. So it might be a, you know, itmight be a, you know what I mean or it mightbe any kind of little filler phrase that keeps thingsflowing for them while they think of the next thing.So it's a combination of languageprocessing and motor planning for the mouth. Does thatanswer your question? Yeah, I know there
Joanne Lockwoodhost
are certain words that I'm going to trip over. I just can't get my.I just can't form them correctly or in my mind I can't. One of themis championing. I just, I really struggle with that word and Isometimes I find myself heading down this one way street and thatword's definitely on the horizon. I'm thinking, blimey, I'm going to crash into that ina minute. And I can't stop myself using that word. And what I found sometimesis maybe it's because I have the confidence to be able to make lightof it and go champing one of those words I just can't say and thenjust make light of it and just pause and everyone in the audience knows theword I'm trying to say. I've made light of the fact it's got stuckin my mouth somehow and I just move on from ithaving used the word as a lighthearted segue to somethingelse. And I guess some of that is confidence and also. But I knowwhen I'm on stage speaking, training, whatever I'm doing,I'll know that I'll get end up in this linguistic roadblock. It's gonnahit me. And sometimes I won't even finish the sentence.I'll somehow pause, segue to something else and carry on talking.And I've learned over the years that nobody notices,nobody really listens that intensively to every single word yousay. And I think once I stopped beinghung up about being word perfect on everysentence, I realised that nobody cares or nobody notices.That pressure comes off, doesn't it? You've hit the nail
James Burdenguest
on the head there. So there's a couple of wonderful points in there.First off, that this is a very human thing, you don't have toself identify as a person who stutters to have gonethrough that experience of, oh, no, here's a word I don't know howto say. It always comes out wrong. And then because of thatknowledge or that expectation, then it go. Then itdoes come out that way. And then it's more proof for you that you can'tsay that word. The other thing you mentioned isother people don't really notice that much. Now, if you're a
James Burdenguest
person who stutters, who has been teased since you were a littlekid, corrected, told that you don't speak normal,then those little microtraumas add up to a bigger trauma around your speech.And it's a lot harder to let that go or laughit off the way a person who doesn't have that lived experiencewould. So for you and me, if Istutter, I'll just like, oh, wow, that was funny. And then I move on. Ifyou've had a lot of these micro traumas, it's a lot harder and you kindof clench up even tighter or you just won't put yourself in a situationwhere that could possibly happen because the fear ofthat happening is, is too great.The experience, you can't, you don't want torelive that over and over. You remember times as it's happened already and it's,it's just too much. There's so many more people out there whostutter than, than you'd expect. But most of them, you would neverhear them do it or know that they stutter because they're avoiding,because they're making sure you don't hear it. And that is one of the thingsthat is top of mind for them. And maybe ifwe work on that mindset. Well, I know that if we work on that mindset,that can start to relieve the pressure and put them inthe same position that you and I would be of just like, oh, laughing itoff and moving on. Are there speecho files?
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Like, you have audiophiles, you know, people who want theperfect sound recording, you know, the purists who findCD music abhorrent and it has to be the full harmonics ofanalogue music from a vinyl. Are there people who have the speech thing? BecauseI've been on various podcast forums and there are people say, oh, no, you mustclean out all the ums and the ahs. And I get so distracted ifthe voice isn't fluent and the right level of recording and the rightdepth of tone. And are there people out there that want to Police youinto their definition of perfect.
James Burdenguest
Well, I've done a number of podcasts so far and I've never met any ofthem. It seems to me more likely that those kindof people are self conscious than theyare other consciousness. So if they aredisfluent, whether they're a person who stutters or not,if they are disfluent, then that bugs them.If their sound isn't just so it bugs them. And maybe itbugs them when other people's sounds are. But I think it's lesscommon than the self judgement. Maybe that's just my personal opinion.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Just fluent a lot as a. I never heard of that word before, but yeah,it's. We talked aboutstuttering. There's another word, stammer. Is. Is a stutter and a stammer thesame thing? Oh yes, yeah, sorry, of course.
James Burdenguest
It's just a. It's a cultural difference. In the UK it's stammer andin North America it's stutter. They mean exactly the same thing. Yeah, I've heard
Joanne Lockwoodhost
both terms. I wouldn't, I wouldn't necessarily say that stutter is not a UK word,but I've heard they describe it as stammering. So they are the samething. Yeah, I don't really. There is another
James Burdenguest
thing as well called cluttering. I don't want to get too into that.That is a very much more rare. It's likeso stuttering is one in a hundred. I don't know the stats on cluttering,but it's related. But it's more like squishing words together.I don't know how to even imitate it the way I could. I'm used tobeing able to produce a stutter so that I can work with clientson it. So. And it's important for me. Sometimes I willstutter publicly. Sometimes I. I go out and stutter and just toremind myself of the lived experience of people who stutter. It's not the same ashaving it all the time, but just to. Okay, what is it like whenpeople give you that funny look or do they even give it to you oris it just you're expecting to see it? It's interesting.It's worth. It's worth a little experiment. If you're not a person who stutters, justto go try it once in a while. I don't really expect a lot totake me up on that challenge, butit is eye opening and to see how peoplereact to you if you stutter. Yeah. I developed
Joanne Lockwoodhost
a self consciousness if you like. Probably when I was hittingpuberty, 11, 10, 12 years old. That kind of agewe first become self aware of judgement and how people see us and things likethat. And I remember in school classes in English, we hadto read out, I think it was probably Shakespeare or Romeo and Juliet or something.We all had to. The teacher would go around the room and say, right, youread out the next paragraph. And I remember having to stand up inclass holding this book. And I find itextremely difficult to read and talk, to read outloud from a written page. My eyes don't track properly. I'mreally bad at following a book and reading each line.I can read paragraphs and I can read and get the gist of things, butI can't read word for word. So I used to be really paranoid about standingup, reading out loud, knowing I would lose track of where I was inthe sentence or not be able to come up the next word properly. And ofcourse that, that led me to feel like I was going bright red. You know,that embarrassment, all the blood flowing to my cheeks, all that fight flight, fear kickingin, that adrenaline and that, that led me toavoiding standing up and speaking out loud for many, many years.Yeah, right up and probably through my 20s, into my 30s.And it only became, when I guess I became more selfconfident in other things, in my ability, that Ilost the fear just by being a more confident person.But it did dog me for many years, that stigma and shameof not being able to speak without my face going bright red and the fearof messing up in public all through that, reading out loud in school.
James Burdenguest
And so here you are as a podcaster, you're speaking infront of, you know, thousands, tens of thousands of people,even if it's recorded first, you're, you're putting yourself out there.So for you, I'm curious, do you think the confidence camefirst or did putting yourself out there come first? Or was itlike kind of like meshed in together? I think it was. I'm gonna,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I'm gonna say. Experience.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Of nobody really noticed, you know, I was standing up, I was doingsomething, I wasn't practising, I was doing live.All the anxieties in my head, all these things are firing off in my brainsaying, you can't, this is going to go wrong, you're going to go bright red,you're going to fluff it up, people are not going to like you, they're goingto hate you. All this stigma's kicking in. And then I realisedthat it was Just false statements going on in my head. Ilearned that all these, all this negative down talk wasmade up and I think it just became. Iovercame that self fulfilling prophecy with a new story and became anew self fulfilling prophecy that it was okay. And I went to a stage whereI was just starting to become a stage professional speaker going out onstage all the time in front of 6, 700 people audiences, huge audiences.And I'd always have this fight flight, fear kicking inin like 30 seconds before I was. As the person started to introduce me,I'd always sit in the wings going, if there's suddenly a power cut, Iwon't be disappointed. If suddenly I'm cancelled. And the person introducing me says,we've changed the programme, sorry Joanne, you're not on anymore. I was going.So I had this major anxiety because I was always scaredof those first words, that first sentence. Because inmy mind I wasn't sure what I was going to say first. Because I'm oneof these speakers that doesn't have a script. I don't over rehearse things. The first
Joanne Lockwoodhost
thing that comes out of my mouth often is a surprise to me.It's been playing around in my head and something gets, a package of wordsgets delivered to my mouth and it comes out at the right moment. So Ihad to learn to trust myself. I had to learn that when I'mon that stage and I pause, I smile, I look around theroom to create that dramatic effect, that lean in feelingin the audience. I knew that whatever came out my mouth first wasgonna make sense, the audience were gonna be drawn inand it would work. So once I started realising that I could trustmyself, I then believed in myself and now Idon't get that anxiety. Someone said, oh, can you go up there and talk aboutthis? I go, give me 10 seconds, I'll just plug the module in. Go. Okay,okay, okay. All right, I've got an opening line. Once the opening line's out,I know the rest will just follow. And it is a kind of atrust in me and not let that feardominate my life. So yeah, I guess it's, I've developed that technique.And also people have described me as having a late night radio voice,very slow, very methodical, very rhythmic. Whensomeone said they found it very warming and easy to listen to, I thought, okay,let's max that. Let's really focus on that's the way I speak. Andvery rhythmic and very calm. It means I don't have to rushmy sentences out. And I Can put a bit of pace in if I wantto. I can tone up, tone down and I can bringsome different sorts of pace and rhythm to my speaking. So, yeah,it is a learned behaviour through observation and practise.
James Burdenguest
What you're describing is so human. I mean, one ofthe biggest fears many people have sometimes. I've heard thissaid. I don't know if it's true that sometimes people fearembarrassment more than death or they fear public speakingmore than death. And, like, I can't speak to that, but becauseI am, I don't have that fear. Dying? No, no, I haven't tried dyingeither. But I mean, I've been in some scary situations,skiing and some scary situations doing sports.Yeah, no, fear of death is worse than. Worse than fearof public speaking for me. But, you know, that might betrue for some people. What you said, though,made me think of this funny quip I heard.When you are young, you care what other people think.And in middle age you don't care what other people think. Andwhen you get older, you realise no one was thinking about youin the first place, they were just thinking about themselves. Andthat is very powerful for getting up on stage orvery powerful for doing a podcast. People want tohear what's in it for them. If you make a little mistake here andthere, the people who are judgingyou are more likely, if they are judging you at all,they're judging you to feel better about themselves, that really, everyone's wanderingaround thinking about themselves 99% of the time.So if that helps you take some of the fearout of public speaking, out of trying to speak, andthe fact that you might start to remember that most people are just thinking aboutthemselves most of the time. Yeah. There's another analogy that I use on this one,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
where if you take a group photo, whether that'syour school, class, the conference you're at, your family grouping,whatever it may be, and the first thing you do when you grab thatphotograph is you find yourself in it to make sureyour expression, whether you were looking the right way, whether you were smiling at thecamera, whether your hair was in place yet your clothing was right,I guarantee that's what most people will do with a photograph, where they're in itsomewhere they'll find themselves. And if you pass that photo to the next person,they're going to do exactly the same about them andnot give a hoot about you. It's only maybe aftertime passes, they'll scan the line and go, oh, look, you've got A silly grinon, haven't you? But the first reaction everyone's going to do with that photograph isfind themselves and worry about them. So exactly what you're saying,so what's in it for me? What do I care about? I care about me,how I'm getting out of this. Actually, you know, I've got my daughter,you take a photograph, you say, oh, don't ever post that, don't. What did youpost that one for? I look awful. I go, it's just a family photo, weall look awful, don't worry about it. Because people lock on tothemselves and they exactly what you're saying. So audibly or even visually.
James Burdenguest
And so if, if I could take that point and run with it, if, ifthere's people listening right now who want to know, whatcan I get out of this? And I'mspeaking to, mainly to the people who stutter.What you can get out of listening to this andwatching my masterclass is how to use thesetechniques practically, how to use this informationabout people not really thinking about you, abouthow stuttering affects your mindset and your mindset affects yourspeech. How to use that practicallyto stutter less. Because that is what most people whostutter are interested in. They want to stutter less. They don't want to hearabout mindset or feeling good about themselves, they just want to stutterless. And I'm here to say that learning about mindset,learning about techniques will help you stutterless. So that is what you can get out ofmy very short 19 minute masterclass. It's not, it's not there tojust make you feel good right away, but to actually help youstutter less by feeling good about yourself. James, that is fascinating. I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
mean, our conversation is, it's, it's really resonated with me.Just as I say my own speech artefacts. Never. I don't think I've ever stuttered,but I've, I've certainly had speech artefacts I've been very paranoid about, so it's helpedme contextualise those. So how can people get ahold of you and find out moreabout your masterclass and your programme? Well, I'll give you the link to the
James Burdenguest
masterclass and that will send youstraight to a. When you watch the first minute or so, threeminutes, then you'll get a link to book a call with me. I amjust interested in having conversations with people, so it's,there's no charge to have a conversation with me.Just get on the phone, tell me what your struggles are. I'llsee if I can help you. And if you invite me to helpyou, I will. This is not. I have never, eversuccessfully convinced someone that they need help withtheir stutter, that it has to come from them. Sobecause otherwise none of thetherapy, none of the coaching can beeffective from a. From a place of. I don't really want to be here.So there's absolutely no point whatsoever in pressuring you. Soplease reach out, make a call. Even if it'sabout a teen or a loved one, maybe I can offerthem some support as well. Excellent. I found you on LinkedIn and
Joanne Lockwoodhost
just search for James Burden. B U R D E N. Yeah, you're there. Yeah.
James Burdenguest
Also, I'm on a stuttering blueprint on Facebookand Instagram. But yeah, the really best way is tojust watch that masterclass and then make a callwith me. Great. I'll put all the links in the show notes at the bottom
Joanne Lockwoodhost
of this so people can track you down. But it's been a fascinating conversation. James,I've really got something out this. It's a subject I've probably never exploredbefore. So thank you so much for your time. You're welcome. Thank you for having
James Burdenguest
me. Can I just send onelast little. Say one last little thing to your audience? Go for it. Go for
Joanne Lockwoodhost
it. To our listener that they're leaning in. Go for it.
James Burdenguest
Okay, so for those listening, especially if you're someonewho stutters, here's what I want you to take away. People are out therewho need to hear yourvoice. Not a polished version, not a perfect version.The real you. Soevery week, challenge yourself to share your story with at least one person,one group or one platform. And not because it's easy,but because your voice matters.So Joanne, thank you so much for having me and this conversation hasbeen a guest. Thanks, James.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to expressmy deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lendingyour ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing toInclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing communitydriving real change. Share this journey with friends, family andcolleagues. Lets amplify the voices that matter.Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm allears. Reach out tojo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.ukand let's make your voice heard. Until next time, thisis Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return withmore enriching narratives that challenge, inspireand unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world.One episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.
In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood is joined by James Burden to unravel the stigma around stuttering and challenge the status quo on fluent speech. The conversation explores how perceptions of speech difference can affect inclusion and professional aspirations, especially when societal expectations drive shame and self-censorship. Joanne and James reflect on their own experiences with public speaking anxiety, emphasising that the pressure to be word-perfect is often self-imposed and rarely noticed by audiences. Through warm anecdotes and honest discussion, listeners are encouraged to reframe stuttering not as a flaw or disorder but as a natural speech variation that need not be hidden or apologised for.
James Burden is a speech language pathologist hailing from Vancouver, currently residing in Mexico while travelling the world to deepen his understanding of human communication. As the founder of Stuttering Blueprint, James empowers professionals who stutter to embrace their authentic voice and speak with confidence. Drawing on years of clinical experience and the latest research into stuttering as neurodivergence, he advocates for support that goes far beyond techniques for fluency—focusing instead on dismantling internalised shame and fostering genuine self-acceptance. His approach combines evidence-based methods such as the Camperdown programme with acceptance commitment therapy, helping individuals re-order their values and melt away the "stuttering iceberg" of negative self-judgement.
Joanne and James probe into the myths surrounding stuttering, illuminate the harmful effects of secrecy and silence, and discuss practical approaches for listeners—whether they stutter or not—to engage empathetically in conversations. The episode highlights how small changes in mindset and environment can transform personal and professional lives for those who stutter, and underscores the importance of not sidelining voices that break with convention.
A key takeaway from this episode is the call to release the pressure for perfection and embrace authenticity in speech. Listeners will discover actionable insights into supporting colleagues and loved ones with speech differences and, above all, will be reminded that inclusion truly means celebrating the full richness of human communication. Tune in to be inspired to listen more deeply, dismantle stigma, and make space for every voice at the table.
The views and opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of Inclusion Bites, SEE Change Happen Ltd or Joanne Lockwood. This episode is shared for general interest and discussion; we accept no responsibility for the accuracy or completeness of any statements made.
