From Chaos to Calm and Finding Ease in Modern Parenting
Sally Bisbee explores the journey from parental overwhelm to empowering ease, unveiling practical strategies for simplifying family life, nurturing self-care, and fostering authentic communication to enable mothers to thrive amidst modern challenges.
Foreign.Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuaryfor bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood,your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart ofinclusion, belonging and societal transformation.Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world without Remember, everyonenot only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone.Join me as we uncover the unseen, challengethe status quo and share stories that resonatedeep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you'resipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let'sconnect, reflect and inspire action together.Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach outto jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.ukto share your insights or to join me on the show.So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time toignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.And today is episode 182with the title From Chaos to Calm. And Ihave the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Sally Bisbee.Sally is a mum life simplification coach who helps
Joanne Lockwoodhost
overwhelmed mothers create calm through simple routinesand guilt free self care. When I asked Sally todescribe her superpower, she said that it is turning everydayoverwhelm into empowering ease for busymums. Hello Sally, welcome to the show. Hello.
Sally Bisbeeguest
Thanks for having me. Absolute pleasure. And
Joanne Lockwoodhost
from the accent, I can tell you not in the uk, so whereabouts in theworld are you? I am not. I am in the United States. I live in
Sally Bisbeeguest
Minnesota, which is. Which is in the centralnorthern spot of the United States.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So the Canadian wall is just above. Is that. Yes, yes,
Sally Bisbeeguest
we are. We. We live in south of Canada. Yeah. Wow.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I forget how big the states is. You know, six hours for me is along way up the country. So. Yeah, you forget. Yeah,
Sally Bisbeeguest
the states are very big. To get from, from Canada down toMexico is probably, I would say 30 or 35hours if you were to drive straight from top of Minnesota, the bottom ofTexas. Yeah, I tried driving from
Joanne Lockwoodhost
LA once down to San Diego and then from San Diego I ended up inMexico. That took a long drive and I also tried to drive from LA toSan Francisco and I gave up 3/4 of the way there. It was just toofar. Just like. Sure, everything's much closer for you. There
Sally Bisbeeguest
it is over in the uk it's much more contained.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So did you have a good Easter? We just come back for an Easter break,haven't we? Yes, yes, we had a wonderful Easter. We hosted and
Sally Bisbeeguest
two, two of my three kids are young still six and nine, sothey're in you Know, just the, like, Easter is so fun still. Andyeah, it was a really great weekend. So
Joanne Lockwoodhost
you've got, you just said there you've got two young, youngish children. They'renot babies, but they're youngish. Yeah.Have you managed to reclaim your own calm? I have,
Sally Bisbeeguest
I have. It's been a process, but Ihave, yeah. So what made you realise that maybe you
Joanne Lockwoodhost
weren't calm, which meant you had to try to develop thisway of helping other mums? Yes. So just a little
Sally Bisbeeguest
background. So those. I have the two quote unquote younger kids, they're six andnine, so they're not little, little anymore. But my oldest, I have a third, she's22, so big gap. I've been doing this momthing for a long time and when my third cameand she was about 2, I would say they were 2, 5 and 17.I just went through this period of time in my lifewhere I was so overwhelmed. I woke up every morning just feeling like.Just overwhelmed and behind for the day already, before the day had even started.And I just finally thought, I can't, I can't keep living this way.Right. Like, I've got another 16 years of thesekids for sure, being in my house. And probably more, as most of us momsof olders know, they. My. My oldest is about to graduate college and movehome for a little bit, so they, they come back and I just thought, Ican't. I can't keep living this way. And so I just decidedto start making some changes in my own life and really justsimplify my life. So it wasn't just a ball of stress all the time.And I just really wanted to be a present happymom for my kids because I know that they deserve that I deserve that, allthe things. So that really was kind of what started my journey of.Of my own stuff and then turned into.Into my passion for helping other moms do the same thing. Wow. Yeah. I mean,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
our kids are. I say kids, they're not really kids anymore. They're. They're grown. They'regrown people. Okay. Our daughter's in their 30s and our son's30 as well. So, yeah, we went through the kid zonein the early 90s, so it's been a while. Sure. But I doremember because you think you've got your. You think you got it alltogether with the first one, you come out the first one, you kind of getused to it and they're two or three years old, asour daughter was, and suddenly you have the second One. You think,wow, this is a lot harder than I remember. Yeah,you forget quickly, don't you? You do, you do. Which I always laugh. That's why
Sally Bisbeeguest
we have multiple kids. Because you do it, you get a couple years into itand you're like, oh, it's another one, another one spot. And then you add acouple more and you're like, oh my goodness. And you know, for meit was my, my husband and I are both,you know, one of the things that's always been important to us is that we,we keep our life outside of just being mom or dad. My husbandis an avid fisherman and hunter and does his own thing, whichI love. I am super social and so finding timewith friends is super important. And I feel like when I was at that stagewhere I was like, so overwhelmed that like, the thought of finding time for myselfwas so hard. And it's just a common thing. I talkto many moms about, like, finding any time for themselves seems impossible. AndI thought there's, you know, there's got to be a way because I'm not goingto wait until these kids are 18 or, you know, even, you know, 15, whenmaybe life gets a little bit easier to like get backmy own time in life. So it's been, it's been a fun journeyfiguring out how to find the calm amidst the chaos. Do you
Joanne Lockwoodhost
think some of it is just the, the perfectionism in usthat we want everything just right or I want the house tidy, I want mykids to look the part, I want to keep my schedule. I've got to maybedo some work. I've got to look after my partner or my partner's got tolook after me. And we're going to try and try and box everything in andwe end up overstressing ourselves. Is that, is that what's going on? Yes, a lot
Sally Bisbeeguest
of it. So much of it. And you know, I'm myself, I'm a super typeA person. I will say I'm less type A now that I have three kids.Because they do that to you, right? Okay. It's been, it's been ablessing of that. I will say that I've let go of a lot of mytype A ness because you just realise that life doesn't happen the waythat you want. You can plan, plan as much as you want and kids,you know, laugh at that. So. And I think, you know,all the things of societal norms and societal pressuresand you know, now social media and you see allthese picture perfect families and they got it all together and you're like, you know,I always tell people, like, people don't post the bad stuff. Like nobody,nobody has it all together. Right? They just don't. And so it's just finding,you know, finding what works for you. And, you know, when Italk to other moms, it's always about, you know, I always tell people it's notabout having a perfect house or perfect life or everything cleanedup. It's about what works for you that keeps your stress level down andallows you to be that present mom. And,you know, I have the, you know, benefits ofreally. Everyone knows how fast time goes as the older we get, thefaster time goes. And you know that. But with me having a 22 year oldand then a 9 and a 6 year old, my, my youngest is in kindergartenand my oldest is weeks away from graduating from college. And so Ihave that big gap. And so it just has really given me that,like, perspective to really just be present tofigure out, like, what do I need to do to simplify my lifeso I can really, like, be here to enjoy these little years before I blinkin there. And they're actually out of the house. So there's such an age group
Joanne Lockwoodhost
that they are effectively different generations. Millennial versusGen Z. Yes. Or Gen Alpha even, I guess. Yeah.
Sally Bisbeeguest
I don't even know what they are, but it's. Yeah, they're. There's 15and a half years between my oldest and my youngest. So it's,it's a big gap, but. But it's also pretty awesome. You know, I always tellpeople, like, it wasn't if I would, if you would have asked me when Iwas, you know, teenager if this is how my life would be, I would say,no way. But it happens how it happened, and it's such a blessing.
Sally Bisbeeguest
My oldest is super, super close with my two youngest. Andjust like watching the bond and I think as a parent too, you know, likehaving two, you go through that stuff with your first one and then you havea second one who you're like, wait, now the stuff that I, that worked forthe first one doesn't work for the second one. And then for us, we threwin that third who's a total. I love her, but she throws everythingout the wind. You're like, nothing is the same for you as it wasfor the other two. And so it's just a constant, like, game asa parent. Right. Figuring out what works and what works forthis kid and what, you know, what, what does this kid need from Me andwhat, what do I need? And all those constant things we have tofigure out. I was the eldest of three and my,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
my youngest brother is six years younger thanme. I would say it took us till I was in mylate 30s, maybe 40s, to finally get on thesame wavelength. Because when you were younger and you. I was in my 30s, evenhis 20s, or I was in my 20s, even in his teens. It's really hardto create relatable experiences, but once you get past about 35ish,then your experiences are kind of, kind of the same, aren't they? You've got thesame sort of. You're a parent, you're married, you've got a house, you've got commitments,you've got all that sort of stuff. Sois your, as your elders found the challenge of beingnot a surrogate mum, not a surrogate sort of babysitter and, you know, trying toresist that, I'll take over and give you freedom or something like that? Was it.Are they allowed to be themselves still? Yes. Oh, yes. Yeah.
Sally Bisbeeguest
I mean, my oldest certainly helps. You know,Easter weekend, she happened to be home from college, so she babysat for us, whichwas wonderful. And we're very blessed to have that ability to have her do that.I also joke to people having little brother and sister is about thebest form of birth control you can have. BecauseI'm like, this is real life. It is not cute babycuddles and kisses all day long. It is, youknow, kids that have their own opinions and don't always want to listenand, you know, are annoying at times. And I lovethem with all my heart. But kids are kids, right? It's, it's, it'sfun. She gets to. Our oldest gets to see really like real life oflike, what it's like in the throes of being a busy parentand, you know, they're, they're in sports and all those things that are. Ourschedule is busy all the time. So she, she loves it andgets, you know, gets to love on them. She certainly is helpful for us,but she also gets to go do her own thing too. And she's old enoughthat if she needs a break and needs to get away from these kids, shecan hop in her car and go do whatever she wants, which is great too.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So when you help other moms, how dothey come to you? Are they already in burnout? They're already struggling to cope.What's the sort of things that normally triggers them to say, I need some help?Is it postpartum Is it. Is it all that? Yeah, I will say,
Sally Bisbeeguest
you know, it's mostly. It's usually moms that have. Have been doingthe mom thing for a little bit. So I really, you know,my kind of sweet spot is. Is midlife moms, moms that maybe aren't inthe throat. You know, the throes of little, like a toddler and a baby area lot, but. But it's all new and. And all that stuff. It's the momsthat have, like, been doing it for a while and are like, something's gotta give,right? I can't. I can't keep going on living this way. One of the biggestthings moms say to me is like, I never have enough time. I never haveenough time. And I'm like, I get that. I get that. But I also liketo tell people like, I. I own three businesses.I have three kids. I have a husband who's gone a lot because I lethim go do his hunting and fishing and all his things he loves. And Istill find time for myself every single day. I just have beenintentional about carving out the time and reallymaking my life to a part where taking care of myself comesnaturally. And that wasn't easy for me. It took time. But it is thosemoms that are just like, something's got to give, and I can't keep going onthis way of just feeling constantly overwhelmed and, you know, soit's just great to be able to. You know, so many of my moms thatI've talked to are like, you know, it's just great to have somebody to talkto that, like, gives you permission that it's okay to take care of yourself.I think as moms, we all know, like, we're supposed to take care of ourselves,and, yes, we need to, but moms are so good at pouringtheir all into their kids and their family that we so often forget totake care of ourselves and put our own needs first. And I always tell people,as cliche as it sounds, you know, you can't. You can't pour from anempty cup, right? Like, we. We have to take care of ourselves first.And when we do that, we're better able to care for our kidsand our spouse and all those around us that we love. And I just lovebeing able to help moms see that and realise that they're worththat. Is that the kind of biological imperative, if you like the
Joanne Lockwoodhost
nature of being a mum, that you have to be thatthe person that takes all of the weight of the family on their shoulders andfeels they're a failure if they leave a dirty plate or ifthey. The child isn't self pressure. Often peopleoften are. Well, I suppose you do get judged by others, don't you?You're a bad parent, you're a bad mum, you're whatever I don't want to be.I don't want my friends to think I'm a bad bum. So you're all thesepressures there all the time, isn't it? Yes. Yeah. And I mean
Sally Bisbeeguest
I think it's so much self pressure, I think, I meanI think that self. Sometimes there's judgement from people. I alsotell people, you know, at my age, which most of themoms I hang around, I'm 44, I don't mind saying that. But you know, beingthis age, you kind of get to that point where you're like, I don't, Idon't care what other people think. Like if, if you're going to judge me, that'son you. But it is, it is just that pressure of, you know,moms want to. We feel like we need to pour in our everythingto the kids, we got to take care of them, we have to. It hasto be perfect. It has to. And you know, it. It took me a longtime to get to this point where I am now, but it really is inthe last five or so years that I was like, wait, I havea husband who's amazing. My husband is amazing. I love him, he's awonderful guy. But he's a guy and he doesn't.
Sally Bisbeeguest
Things don't click the same as as a mom. I think there's this difference ofhow men and women are wired, of how we think and care for people. Buthe's very willing to help. And one of the things I finally realisedthat he and I sat down and had a big talk about waslike, this is our family and this is our houseand why, why am I doing so much of this stuff andhe's not? And because. And it wasn't that he didn't want to, it was justthat I did it all because as a mom I think we just feel likewe need to do the laundry and the dishes and all the things. Ineed to start passing off some of that stuff to my husband who was verywilling to help. And so that's another thing I really help moms with is justseeing that need that we feel like we need to do. It allis on us. And the only person who can change that is also us. Andwe need to, you know, ask for help and delegate andsimple things like my husband now does the dishes every single day,I do all the laundry, but he puts all the laundry away andjust divvying up those things to realise that even though there'sstill those things of like, you feel as a mom that you should be doingit all and you should be able to do it all, it's like, well, it'snot realistic. How do you work full time, care for the kids, keep up onthe house, find time for yourself? Like, it's just, it's not realistic to doit all. So I think learning to let go of some of thatneed of perfection and needing to do it all is, is the biggestmove moms can take to really better their lives. You
Joanne Lockwoodhost
said, you said your age. So I'm not outing you from an age. No, I'm
Sally Bisbeeguest
totally open. I'm 60. I'm 60. So awesome. I grew up, I grew up in
Joanne Lockwoodhost
a world where my mum was a stay at home, fulltime mother, homemaker. Me too. And sowe've been brought up in an era where that's kind of the, the plan andthe expectation, but the realism today and probably many of the mumsyou, you help have also grown up in a world where mums were fulltime mums, stay at home homemakers. So that's not the reality anymoreis that we need to have dual incomes. We need, and also, even if wedon't need the money, we want a different passion and purpose. We want our ownlives, we want our own careers. So we're trying,we're trying to have everything. We're trying to have our own life, our own passion,our own careers, our own friends and be an amazing mum.That's where the best, where the conflict happens, isn't it? Yeah, so much. Yes.
Sally Bisbeeguest
And I think, I mean that is a huge thing. I was, my mom wasa stay at home mom and my dad owned a business and worked crazy hoursand all that stuff. And so I look at like, well my, my mom didit all. She cooked and cleaned and made, you know, did thelaundry and brought us to school and all those things where my dadworked and made the money and you know, now it is, it's a, it's adifferent world. And I always laugh like I'm, I'm the least feminist person thereis. I'm all about girls having strength and doing their own thing.
Sally Bisbeeguest
But I, but I think that there's, there's just that difference now too ofwomen are out there and we work and we have our own passions and allthat stuff. And I think that there is a big rewiring that needs tohappen in our brains to know that when you're both working, why is,why is it that you both work full time, but then all this stuff stillfalls on the mom, right? And I think again, a lot of us is thatwe just do it. Like, I look at, you know, mine and my husband'srelationship, and I think, well, why would he think he needs todo X, Y, Z? Because I just automatically do it. And sohe doesn't want to step on my toes because he knows I already do that.Well, he's not going to do it unless if I ask or mention, like, hey,it'd be super great if you could start emptying the dishwasher every day. He's like,oh, I'd be happy to do that if that's what, you know, that's whatwould help. Like, great. You know, he's so great about it. But I thinkjust. We just do. We feel that, like, well, our moms did it all, weshould be able to do it all, but we forget that factor in that, like,our moms were not working full time while also doing it all. Right,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
so do you think part of the problem for that is a failure to communicatewith your. Your partner, your husband, your wife, and actuallysaying, this is how I feel. This is where I am right now. And oftenwhen you have this communication, you must go, what if what you said?And then you expect the other person to be a mind reader and it's, whydidn't you just step in? Well, I thought you were coping, etc. Yes. Oh,
Sally Bisbeeguest
a hundred percent, 100%. I find thatwith many of the moms that I talk to, I know it was somethingfor my husband and I for a long time.Communication is a huge thing. And, you know, I always tell people,my husband and I sit down once every a few months, four or five months.We'll just sit down and have a real come to Jesus talk.Here's where I'm at. Here's what I'm feeling. And, you know, we've talked a
Sally Bisbeeguest
lot about just the differences of, you know, we hear a lotabout it these days, the mental load of motherhood and what wetake on. And I say, you know what? At any given time, my brain isgoing with a million things. What do the kids have? What do theynow in, you know, in Minnesota, it's almost summer, so it's like, oh, do theyhave all their Summer clothes because we switched from snow to kneading shorts. So dothey have clothes? What sports do they have? What? You know, all those things constantlygoing through my brain that my husband does not have going through his brainon any given day. And so just sitting down and havingthose talks with my husband has been very helpful of, like, hey,I'm just going to download and tell you a little bit of, like, what isconstantly going through my head. And here's some thingsthat would be super helpful if you could take off my plate, becauseI'm already doing all these things. I have this. And he's like, great,that's great. And, you know, at our house, I always laugh like, I'm super typeA, so I like things done a certain way. So my husband, who's very, like,laid back and go with the flow, he also. It'salways a game of, like, you know, he doesn't want to, like,step in and do something that I might be like, oh, you didn't do that,right, honey? Which I've also learned to let go of a lot of. But, youknow, just finding that communication. And I do I really talk to moms about,you know, does your. Does your spouse even know how you feel? Do they knowthat you're doing all this? Your husband might work full time, you might work fulltime, but why are you working full time coming home and doing all the stuffwith the kids and all the stuff for the house while your husband comes homeand doesn't do that? Like, does. Does he even know how you feel? And they'relike, well, he should. And you're like, well, have you talked about it? Like,yeah. And, you know, I always look back to. I had. I had a friendyears ago that she used to get mad that her boyfrienddidn't just know what she wanted. And I was like, okay, well, here's.Here's what you can look at. You can say, I'm bummed that he didn't justread my mind, which he's not going to do, or you could tell himwhat you need, and then. And then if he doesn't do something with it, thenyou. Then you have a right to be bummed about that. Right? If you tellthem your needs and they're not being met, then you could be sad. But I'mlike, isn't it just easier to say, like, here's what I would love if. Ifyou could help with. Or here's what I'd love if you could do. And thenthey do it, Then you're Like, great. That works great yourself. Yeah. I think there's
Joanne Lockwoodhost
also a, I think we touched on it is a desire not to step onthe other person's toes. You know, if you've got a routine, if you, if yougo and do it your way, as you say, you're a type a person, yougo, actually, you've done really good. But I'm, I'm now stressing because that's not theway I would have done it. Yes. Yeah. You haven't quite dressed the childrenin the way I would address them. I wouldn't have put those socks on them,you know, so suddenly you're, you're inheriting more stress because you wantto control the plan, don't you? Yes. And I think, you know,
Sally Bisbeeguest
one of the things that, that I learned so a little, little also backstory tome. I was a single mom. I had my oldest my senior year of College.I was 22 when my oldest was born and oops as I hit my mic.And we got married when My daughter was11. And so I was a single mom for many years. And then my husbandcame in and he adopted my daughter and we had two more. Andit's, it's all awesome and great, but it was, I wasvery set in my ways and used to being it just my daughter and I,so everything was my way. And then he came in and I had to learnhow to parent more kids with having a spouse. And so it was a thing.And so one of the big things for me that I constantly remind myself ofis he's not doing it wrong. He just does it different than I do,which doesn't make it wrong. You know, he, he puts away allthe laundry and still to this day, bless his heart, I love him. He putssome of my daughter's clothes in the wrong drawers. And she's six, so shecalls them out on it every time. She's like, dad, why are mypyjamas in my T shirt drawer? And I was like, hey, like he's puttingclothes away and mom's happy about it. So just, just switch it. It's all right.You can fix it. You know where they go. So I think just, you know,again, the type A ness. I think as a mom or as aparent or grown up or anything, like just learning to let go of some ofthat. That once you have kids and a spouse, like, things are not goingto be 100% your way anymore. And the greatest thing you can do isjust learn how to let go of some of that need to have it allbe perfect or just your way and know that if you're going to ask forhelp, you're going to have to be okay with it being done. Maybe a littlebit different way than you would do it. Yeah, completely. Completely. Yeah. I was just
Joanne Lockwoodhost
thinking there that, you know, it is this sort of not wanting tooverstep or not fully understanding what the other person's doing, feeling the otherperson's in control when really their feet are flappingunder the water. They just look like a calm swan on top of the water.So yeah, it's a challenge. And I guess again,without putting words into your mouth, you get 40sand your body changes again, doesn't it? And you have other needs and otherchallenges with perimenopause, menopause, which alsoaffects how you interact with each other as husband and wifeor even the children. Yeah. And that's another dynamic that people don't realise thatwhen it hits you it really changes dynamics betweenpeople. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure I will say I'm lucky enough
Sally Bisbeeguest
that I knock on wood somewhere. I haven't experienced a lot of that yet. I'mlike super careful that I won't. But it is at my age it is talkedabout all the time. All my girlfriends talk about it. So it's a very commontopic of conversation at this age. But for sure, stuff, stuffchanges. And I think even just you know, outside of that,I think, you know, constantly as you grow in age, right.
Sally Bisbeeguest
Stuff just changes in life. You realise what your priorities areand where your time and energy should be and stuff that mattered to you inyour 20 or 30s maybe doesn't matter as much in your 40s. You know,I always tell people like I've always been a person that I haven't, I'venever super cared a lot what people think. Like I'm not, I'm notaffected by like, I don't need to wear name brand things to be cool orany of that stuff. I want people to like me and you know, those commonthings. But I think something about turning 40 was a really like eyeopener to me of like, you know what? This is my life. Like I,I don't need to live for somebody else. I need to live for me andwhat makes me happy and what works for me and my family and justreally, you know, living that life thatlike works for me, what, how I live my life might notwork for somebody else. And I understand that, you know, a lot of my friends,I've been with my husband for 14 years and heis gone a lot. Hunting and fishing and people like, how, how do you dothat? How do you let him be gone? I was like, oh, that's actually whyI married him. Like, I love that he has a passion that like,lights his fire. Like, lights his soul on fire. Like, he loves that andit makes him so happy. And I love having like, I'msuper independent, so I like having that me time or just time with the kidsto go do what I want, but just really, you know, doing what works foryou. Right? And. But back to that communication with spouse.
Sally Bisbeeguest
I think that, that, that is a huge thing for every aspect of life, reallyis, you know, letting them know what's going on, what are you feeling,what, you know, and it doesn't have to be a big sitdown, one hour deep conversation. It can just be those,you know, my husband and I have gotten really good of. You know, we tryto have family dinner as often as we can and just really like, how wasyour day? What's going on? You know, is there anything you need from me? Justhaving those simple conversations reallyis, is a game changer. And not only parenting, but, you know,that whole effective marriage thing and making sure that, you know, I always tell myhusband, I'm like, I'm only doing this once, so we're gonna, you know, makesure this works forever. And I'd like to still like you when the kids getout of the house. So having that communication is a big thing.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
It is. And I, I remember when our, our son,the last of our two to leave and move out, even though he was25, I think 22, 23, 24, 25. He was quite a,an adult when he left. So there's still, there's still a kind of anemptiness in the. We had an apartmentat the time. My wife not worrying about buying himpies for his food or not having to strip his bed, or not havingto this, that and the other. There's a whole load of things you realise you'rejust not doing and then you're sitting there watching telly in the evening and youfeel. Even though he never spend time with us, he was always playingon his Xbox, his Game Boy or something in his room,does not start having his heartbeat. Yeah. 10Ft away from you. Just.There's a real emptiness. And it took us longer than wethought. It was a sadness. It was just. You just feel thatlack of human vibration, don't you? Or the energy. For sure. Yeah. Definitely
Sally Bisbeeguest
a readjustment. And I think you know, I think that's one of my big things,too, of something I really work with moms with right now is.Is remembering that you are something outside of being a mom.A mom is part of you, but it's not who you are. It's part ofyour identity, but it's not your whole identity. And I think so often asmoms, we get so lost in. We're a mom, and wehave to do all the mom things, and we have to. And, you know, that'sgreat. And it's a season of our life, a long season. Right. But you alsowant to remember who you are so that when they do finallyleave the house, that you remember who you are and what you like outside ofthat. And then I also think that whole thing, you know, with your spouse, like,that's something big I talk to people about. And,you know, one of my big things, my. My parents are a weekaway, eight days, I think, but a week away from selling. Celebrating their48th wedding anniversary, which is so amazing. Andthey have a great marriage. They love each other. It's, youknow, far from perfect. I mean, they certainly have had moments, youknow, 48 years with the same person. Yeah, you butt heads at times,right? But I just always tell my mom, like, I. I want that. I wantto make sure, like, you know, my parents, they worktogether, they live together, all those things, they really enjoy each other's company. And Ireally want that for my husband and I, you know, we. We really do stillenjoy each other's company. But I think that's such a hard thing in the.When you're in the depths, like the throes of parenting and little kids andstuff, that sometimes that. That marriage part gets so pushed on the back burner,and you're like, well, then. Then what happens when those kids are out andyou are finding your footing again, right, with that. And, like, if you can figureout now how to make sure and nurture that marriage andthat have that open communication and all those things. I think it's such abenefit to setting yourself up for when those kidsleave. I mean, I think you'll still miss them, right? Because that's just. That'sjust something, having them not in your house anymore and not there to justcheck in on every single day. But I think those things aresuch. Such important things to remember, to really remember when you're in the depthsof. Of the parenting, in the little years, to really keep on top ofthat stuff. So you're good to go when they do Move out finally. Well, I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
think I've noticed, you know, in my life, as I say, I've 60, I've had.I've had a fair bit of 23 years of being anadult, I suppose. 43 years of being an adult. No, 60. Oh,God. A long time being an adult. I've even lost it. I can't work itout. 43 years of being an adult. Yeah. Anyway,a long time. I forgot what I was gonna say now. Blimey, I'm having thatsenior moment, so. Yeah, well, I think what I've learned, what I've learned over thoseyears is you don't realise how full you areuntil you. And until you allowthe load to come off. Because sometimes you're so over capacity,you're 20%, 30%, 40% over capacity, reducing by5%, you're still over capacity. So sometimes you got to strip right backto realise how busy you actually were. And that's the challenge, isn't it? Because wegot to let go of stuff to realise that we have to letgo of stuff. And I remember doing some coaching with a person in business sayingthat they were trying to carve out time. They had their boss demanding this, theyput people putting stuff in their diary. This, that and the other. I said, youneed to create this firebreak where you can actually take control of yourschedule. If you can't do that, you can never seewhat's really going through your head at any one time.
Sally Bisbeeguest
So important. And that, I mean, that's a big thing that I did inmy own life. And now I help other moms figure out, you know, my, mywhole thing is how, how to simplify your life as a mom,as a parent, for sure. But as a mom, like, there's there's so much stuffthat we take on and there's so much unnecessary stuff wetake on. You know, I always tell people, like, what. What are the things causingyou stress? And what, what can you a do about them? What canyou let go of? I mean, you know, his joke. As, as silly as itis, laundry is one of the things that gets talked about the most. You're like,okay, could you. I mean, sure, in a dream world, could you like paysomebody else to do your laundry? Sure. But not many people do that. AndI, you know, know whatever. But I think, you know, for me it'sa lot of. It's acceptance. Right. The laundry is always going to be there. Sofigure out a system. You know, for me, I do one load of laundry everyday. That way I don't spend my weekends doing laundry. I just keep ontop of it. Again, my husband puts away the laundry. Sothat's a big thing of like learning, okay, I can wash it, dry it,fold it. He puts it away. It's great, it's done.I think acceptance of some of those things, like, okay, this is the stage oflife I'm in. There's a lot of laundry. I gotta do it, move on.But also things like schedule and stuff. I look at a lot of people whojust have crazy busy schedules. And I thinkas a mom too, we think that, that, that busyness, constantly beingbusy is like a sign of like, we got this, we're doing this. And you'relike, no, like, where's. Where's the white space in your life? Right? We have tocreate those. Those down moments and havingthat space that we can take care of ourselfand have those moments to breathe and, you know, notover committing to things is such a huge thing. And then
Joanne Lockwoodhost
suddenly the kids get a bit older. You become a soccer mom, you become a.A base, a basketball mom or whatever. You're suddenly traipsing around, drivingthem here, driving them there. Yes. And all theextracurricular mum stuff or dad stuff. Dad's. Daddid some of it as well. But, yeah, you suddenly take on label, don't you?
Sally Bisbeeguest
Yes. Yeah. And I mean, you know, that's greattoo. I mean, I look at. We. We grew up, you know, in. InMinnesota, hockey is a big thing. So my older and younger brother both playedhockey. I actually played hockey real briefly. Turns out I'm not super competitive.So it wasn't. I love the game, but not the competitiveness of it.But, you know, my. My parents were hockey parents and they're like, best friends wereall hockey parents, and they love that. And so I don't think,you know, having those new identities is ever a bad.Doesn't have to be a bad thing. But it's. I think it's just important
Sally Bisbeeguest
to, you know, I look at some of. I have friends that have,you know, kids that are in five sports at a time. And you're like, howdo you have a moment for yourself or your marriageor anything when you are just constantly running kids to sports all thetime, you know, So I think that sometimes it's important to look too of like,okay, what's our capacity for? Okay, our kidscan do two sports at once because the schedules. The schedules work.And, and maybe volunteering for the eventthat you really want to volunteer for is just not in the books right nowbecause of knowing your capacity and needing some of that justspace to have some downtime in your life. I think is.Is such a important thing for, for us to remember justto. To not over schedule ourselves. I'm gonna say mums
Joanne Lockwoodhost
come to you. You know, when parents come to you. It doesn't have to be.Could be a dad, it could be a mum, it could be someone. However youwant to describe yourself. What do they really want to do that theyhaven't got time for? Because you said at the beginning, they come because they haven'tgot time. I haven't got time. I've got time. Time for me is always aboutpriority. So what, what can't they prioritisein their life? What's the biggest thing that go, I want time to do this.What is it? Yeah, I don't know that I have an answer for that. I
Sally Bisbeeguest
mean, it's definitely that. There's never enough time to get everythingdone. You know, it's. I have this to do list and I can never getthrough it. And then I also know that I'm supposedto fit in self care and people are like, I don't.I can't even imagine the last time that I've taken, you know, aday for myself. I always. I always laugh. One of my formerlife coaching clients came to me and she was. She was workingcrazy hours. Her husband is.Oh, okay, there's one of those. Sorry, someone's at the door.I thought I wouldn't be bothered at. All, but that's
Joanne Lockwoodhost
okay. Okay. We're all right. I thought it was. I thought it was my husband.
Sally Bisbeeguest
It's. It's not. Some. Somebody dropped. We're just talk. We're just
Joanne Lockwoodhost
talking about him. It's okay. Don't worry. It's fine. I also run a craft business,
Sally Bisbeeguest
so people drop stuff off when my friend stops. So that is what that is.Um, my formercoaching client, her husband was a fire chief, so he worked, you know,24 hour shifts and he was gone a lot. She was working crazy hours. And.And so one of the things really was just that teaching her to put betterboundaries around her time and what she spent it on and all that stuff. Andso I really encouraged her to just. I'm like, find one nightthat you can go to dinner with a girlfriend. And she's like, Ijust. I don't like that sounds hard. I'm like, okay, like, let's just. Just onenight, you know, Two hours. It doesn't even have to be at bedtime. And likea week later she sent me a text and said, I, I just booked atrip, we're going to Florida. So instead of just a one night dinner,she booked a like four day girls trip. Which was great, but really just like
Sally Bisbeeguest
being intentional of, of finding that time, I think is, I thinkfinding time for yourself is, is one of the biggest things that moms come tome with of like, like I can't stay on top of everything I'm supposed todo. Raising the kids and laundry and keeping the house clean and declutteringand all the things, much less find time for myself. So it's super funjust to be able to walk alongside moms and be like, okay,I can look at your life from an outside view and be like, tell mewhat you have going on. And here you know, why, likeexplain to me, you know, what's, what's the importance of why you're putting your timein over here and, and them seeing like, maybe that's not where I should beputting my time. And that's right, I could gain back some time and actually usethat time for something I love that refreshes me and fills me upagain. Go back to I mentioned earlier, is it, is it nature or nurture or
Joanne Lockwoodhost
just being a mum? I read something somewhere, a magazine oronline or something popped up and it talked about when, when awoman sees a bit of mess in the toilet,they immediately go, germs must clean it. It has to be down now, now, now.A man goes, it's all right, it's fine, it'll keep. And sois there a different sense of urgency? And again, I don't wantto stereotype here. I'm not trying to say that men are this and women arethis, but is that sometimes what happens whereyour husband, a man may not see the problem, but a woman, themom sees it and thinks I have to do that now. 100%.
Sally Bisbeeguest
I mean there just is, I think there is just, there'sjust a difference on how people see it. And you know, again,I think that that's something I love about being married to my husband,is that I try sometimes to see it through his eyes. I'm like,okay, why do I like feel that? Like, oh, it likeworks me up and it has to be done now where, where he can justlike look at it and walk by and it doesn't bother him. I'm like, likeI would give anything to like not be bothered by some of those things.Like that's, that's an amazing thing to have, but I do. Ijust think that, you know, I think each. You know, and maybe man and woman,but also just each person I think is bothered differently. I have. I have areal good girlfriend who is not type A, and her houseis messy. Every time I go there and I walk in and she'slike, oh, you. You must just judge me every time you walk in here. AndI'm like, honestly, I don't. I said, part of me is honestly jealous that youcan live like this. Because she's just accepted that that's howher life is. She's got two boys, they're busy. She's just acceptedand she's okay with it. I'm like, I physically couldn't do this. Like, my skinwould crawl. Like, it just. The feeling inside me isso horrible that I couldn't do it. But it. But because I'm so type A,I can't imagine being so type B that you could just be okay with themass. And I think, you know, that's. I have a degree in psychology because Ilove how the brain is wired and how everyone thinks differentlyand does things differently. And it just fascinates me in that sense of like, everyonedoes things differently. And just because, I mean, my house is alwayssparkling clean at all times. And I've accepted that that's okay. That's.That's how I want it. And it's not because I feel like it needs tobe like that or I think that that makes me better or anything. It's justwhat makes me happy, and it's how I like it. But I don't ever expectthat from anybody else. You know, I think it's for self. You know, when I.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
When I talk to my wife about things sometimes, or she talks back to meor whatever, if I was to say to her, it's okay, just leave it, letit go. What that's not doing is understandingher imperatives. Me saying,let that go, leave it, don't worry about it, doesn't reduce the stress levels,doesn't reduce the anxiety, doesn't. So what we're trying to do here really is whenyou talk about how to simplify someone's life orovercome the overwhelm it's trying to de. Trigger some of thesethings that create this high level of anxiety in people. Is that. Is that whatyou make them more manageable? Yes. Yeah, definitely.
Sally Bisbeeguest
Definitely. And I think, you know, again, like I said, I think forme, helping people figure out how. Howto let go of some of it, you know, it's hard. I think some ofit is just naturally how we're wired. Right? Something that bothers me mightnot bother you. And, and so I mean that again, that'sa great example. What you just said about you and your wife is that that'ssomething for my husband and I that we've talked about. Like, I get this doesn'tbother you, but it does bother me. And so how, how can we find likea middle ground where, like, just because it's mything and it's not your thing doesn't mean it has to go my way. Becauseif it doesn't bother you, then, you know,it's finding that middle ground. But also, I think, understanding and,you know, I. It's just a constant, right? It's a constantebb and flow of what, what works and figuring it all out. I think
Joanne Lockwoodhost
you said it earlier, it's trying to learnwhat matters to the other person, what doesn't matter. The other person,what needs to be a big deal and really what doesn't. If you, if youwant to load the dishwasher your way, it still washes the dishes. It doesn't matterif the glasses aren't all the right way up and the spoons are in thecorrect way order. And it doesn't matter. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.So it's not taking on the, the extra anxiety of tryingto fit the other person into your definition of right and wrong as well, isn'tit? Yes. That. That is huge. One of my
Sally Bisbeeguest
favourite lines, my mom has always told me, is pick your battles.Which is a lot about the kids, but, but also with, with the spousetoo, right? She, early on to being married, she said to me, pick yourbattles. Figure out, figure out the things that matter to you thatlike, yep, you really want things done this way because of xyz.And let him know and make sure he's on the same page. Other things, thedishwasher per se, not being loaded correctly, Let it go. The dishes arebeing cleaned. I'm not doing it. It took it off my plate. Great, right?And so that is one of those things that I really learned and I tryto help other people see that too. Like just because they do it differently ornot the same way. You know, people say, oh, like I asked him to washtowels and he washed them, but he folded them wrong. And you're like, well, it's,it's a towel. Is it clean and put away in the linen closet? They're like,yeah. And you're like, then it, it shouldn't matter. Right. Like if that's where yourenergy is going, then we probably have bigger issues that we needto work on of figuring out where, where is your stress and anxietybeing focused on. I just, you know, better ways to spend your energy than beingupset that something like that isn't done correct correctly. Yeah. One of the things I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
often say to people is you in a marriage you can't always be right andhappy. Sometimes they're incompatible. So you don't. Onceyou realise you don't have to be right. Yeah, you can be, you can bea lot happier for sure. Yeah. I mean it is, it's. It's
Sally Bisbeeguest
that constant ebb and flow and compromising and figuring all thosethings out and makes it run a lot smoother when you can figure that partout for sure. Do you think you're obviously got kids of different ages,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
children of different ages. Do you think they're learning a newway as pre parents? Maybe they'll be parents one day in their life. Are youbringing them up in a way that teaches the skills you'retalking about now? I hope so. I hope so. I mean
Sally Bisbeeguest
that is a big thing. Somebody once said to me, Ican't remember exactly but you know, it's our job toraise our kids not to stay home but to,you know, to spread their wings and fly right to. The thing is you wantthem to leave the house and be good people in the world. And I think,you know, it's fun Talking to my 22 year old just the things that shesees. You know, like I said, I, I run three businesses. I have my, mycoaching business and organising business and a crafting business and so I'm busy allthe time but I, I run three businesses and do a lot of themom stuff but just, just showing her, you know,she'll say, you know and, and I actually for the last eight years I justrecently retired from this. I ran an in home daycare so that I could behome with my little kids and be the ones to raise them. And you know,I always. She knows and the little kids will know eventually. Like wasn't ever mydream to be a daycare lady. Like that wasn't grow up and be adaycare lady but it wasn't my dream to be a mom and to be ableto be with them but also to still to earn that income and have moneyand those things. And so I think showing these kids thatand also that my husband is so involved and stuff, you know,my dad is an Amazing man. And I love him and I'm still super closeto him, but he was, he worked 70 hours a week,six days a week. Like, we didn't see him much as a kid because hewas the, he was the breadwinner. My mom stayed home and did the stuff withus and growing, you know, raising these kids in a family that they see like,dad is home and dad does stuff. And like when I leave and go havemy girls night with my friends, dad isn't babysitting. Youknow, that's one of those, like when people say that, oh, my husband's babysitting, you'relike, it's not babysitting when it's your own kids. Right? Like, nope, he's just homewith his kids. Much like parenting. Parenting for sure.And so, you know, I love that my kids get to see that, thatdad gets to go do his thing. Mom does her thing. We have life outside
Sally Bisbeeguest
of them. We both work. You know, I amrunning these businesses on my own, following my dream and mypassion and all that. And so just showing them all those things is just sucha cool thing. And so I do, I think that they're going to grow upin a, in a different way that we, that you and I especially were raisedwith. Having stay at home moms will forever be grateful that I hadthat and love that my mom was a stay at home mom. And as muchof why I run my own businesses is because I want to be able tobe home still and be here for my kids. But I love thatthey get to see that me being a mom didn't mean that I got togive up on my, on my dreams and my passions just because I was amom. So I'm glad they get to see that for sure. Talk about
Joanne Lockwoodhost
raised by our mums. I was just also thinking there that I'm now hittingthat sandwich generation. You know, where I'm now. Look now,both my wife and I, we're now becoming more responsible for our parents.My wife lost her mother two years ago. I lost myfather three, three months ago. Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.They, they had a fantastic life. They, they didn't suffer. They, they were,they were old. They part, they passed when they were old. They had a goodlife. And my wife's father at the moment is,he's 92. Wow. And he's, he's, he's, he'S a fantastic92. But he's just getting to the point now where hespent some time in hospital. Yeah. We almost have Our own parking spot accidentin emergency. The ed. Yeah. Or we, we hear in the carpark again we go, oh yeah. We're back to our overnight hotel where he's,he's in the bed, we're sitting in the chairs waiting all night to be seen.And my, my, my mum's a few years younger so she's quite, she's86 and a good 86, I love it. But we'rerecognising that we've now got to go back through that parental cycle becausewe're now having to manage our parents not as if they're baby children, butthey, they need help, support,worry and also you need to persuade them to do the rightthing, to get it right, to regard themselves. And persuading our father in law tostop driving was a real challenge because a proudman. I can still drive. It's when he says it's okay, Itake it really, really careful when I'm driving. I thought you should be taking itreally, really careful anyway when you're driving. Not so.So fortunately, fortunately he decided on his own.Okay, good, stop driving. He got to the point where I think he'd had afall and he didn't drive for about a month and he went to try anddrive. He said, I've realised now, having not driven for a month, I can't.Here's my licence. But so yeah, we sold his car and it was fine. Soyeah, it's. You become a parent again, don't you?
Sally Bisbeeguest
Yeah, yeah, I, I'm not there yet, thank God. ButI can only imagine that, that, that, that's just a whole thing, right? You gottawatch out for them and care for them and there's a way more fine linethere because like you said, I mean those things of like you can't bedriving, you shouldn't be driving anymore. But to tell a grown adult that,I mean, I always think like I don't ever want to be told that ever.But you know, eventually I, I hopeI'm blessed enough to get there, you know, 92 years, that's. That's awesome, right?To be afforded that. You got to live a great life that long. Likegreat. But yeah, that's a whole new, a whole new responsibility.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
It's completely different conversations, you know, you go around, they're making sure they've eaten properly,checking on their food in the fridge, is there anything mouldy in the cupboard? It'slike, it's like in some respects it's like dealing with a two year oldagain in some Respects. It's like dealing with a teenager again because they're petulant, they'refighting back, they go angsty about the whole thing, don't want to be told.Sometimes they're just, they just need to be treated like a child. So it's, youknow, think about your simplification coach. I'm guessing that some of your,your mum. Mum friends are about to hit thatpart of their life as well. You know, got kids, got menopause,got elderly parents. But nobody trained you to be anelderly parent carer. Because when you're, you're going through your pregnancy,when you're going through starting a family, everybody's got the manuals, thebooks, the tools, the antenatal classes, scans. When parentssuddenly become old, there's no guidebook. People just go,wow, it is what it is. And then you find that social services, support servicesare just. You have to fight for everything. It's like a nightmare. Yeah,
Sally Bisbeeguest
yeah, it's. Yeah, that's a whole new, A whole new thing thatI'm not super versed in experience yet or. No, but, yeah,whole, whole new thing. But I will say if you simplify your life andget rid of that, you know, I always tell people, like one of my bigthings just in the overall thing is when you simplify your life andget rid of any unnecessary stresses, when new stresses comeup, then the thing is you can just focus on that new stress and youdon't also have to focus on that new stress along with all the other stresses.Right. When you, when you have all those other things figuredout and taken care of, then, then you're able to just deal with that newstress of figuring out how to navigate that, the ageing parents orwhatever, without also having 80 other stresses still in your life.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I think that's important. You're right, because when we, when wespeak from a position of stress, the wrong brain chemicals areflowing. We're not in our prefrontal cortex, we're not calm, we'reoften not completely rational. So sometimes it's being ableto step back because some of the stresses come from our employer, the environment,society, not just the children or the husband. So being ableto say how I feel to others,that's a really good technique to learn, isn't it? Yes. Such a good one,
Sally Bisbeeguest
Sally. It's been absolutely fascinating. I mean, we could do a volume two on. And
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I'll. You can, you can interview me on, on elderly parents with my, my newspecial subject. I love it. How do people get ahold of you. How do peopleget hold of you? Um, sure. So my website
Sally Bisbeeguest
is simply sallyco.comyou can find me on Facebook or Instagram at SimplySally Coaching. Andthat's, that's where I'm at. And you're Sally
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Bisbee. Sally Bisbee. Are you on Instagram, placeslike that? Yeah, the, the Simply Sally Coaching is my
Sally Bisbeeguest
Instagram and Facebook. Both of those and Facebook. Yeah. Yep. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So people want to Google you, track you down, search for you. Yes. Wave,say hi. Like a few of your posts. Yeah, I would love that.Do you do kind of a bit of ad hoc messenger support typestuff? So if someone's having a bit of burnout struggle, can you give them abit of. A. Bit of a bit of a sample coach over the. Overthe dms? Sure. Yes. If someone wants to message me.
Sally Bisbeeguest
Yep. And I've got free free resources onmy website. Different, you know, time saving hacks and justdifferent things like that. I host free workshops every once in awhile for people to hop on and learn different. Just ways toget more time in your life and different things like that. Soawesome to check out Sally. It's been a blast. It's been lovely to
Joanne Lockwoodhost
talk to you for just over an hour, so thank you so much. Yes, thank
Sally Bisbeeguest
you so much for having me. It's been great chatting with you too.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to expressmy deepest gratitude to, to you, our listener, for lendingyour ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing toInclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing communitydriving real change. Share this journey with friends, family andcolleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter.Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm allears. Reach out tojo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.ukand let's make your voice heard. Until next time, thisis Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return withmore enriching narratives that challenge, inspire andunite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world oneepisode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.
In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood invites Sally Bisbee to navigate the transition from chaos to calm in the realities of modern family life. Joanne explores how mothers face the pressures of societal expectations, work, family routines, and self-imposed guilt, all while trying to carve out space for themselves. Sally shares her own story of overwhelm—juggling children of widely differing ages and rediscovering her identity outside motherhood—and demonstrates practical methods for reclaiming tranquillity in the relentless swirl of family life. Together, they unpack the impact of perfectionism, the invisible “mental load”, unspoken assumptions between partners, and the crucial role of open, honest communication in creating balanced shared responsibility.
Sally is a mum life simplification coach based in Minnesota, USA, specialising in helping overwhelmed mothers develop sustainable routines and guilt-free self-care. With experience spanning over two decades of parenting—including a 22-year-old and two younger children—she brings both lived wisdom and a nuanced understanding of how family dynamics shift across generations. Sally, who also runs multiple businesses, is driven by her passion for empowering mothers to shed the myth of needing to “do it all” and find joy through intentional boundaries, flexible expectations, and supportive habits. Her practice extends beyond generic advice, illustrating how bespoke routine changes and shifting perspectives on partnership can dramatically improve familial wellbeing.
Joanne and Sally examine the legacy of traditional gender roles, the challenges of maintaining both independence and connectivity in marriage, and the evolving responsibilities of the “sandwich generation” caring for children and elderly parents. They discuss acceptance, setting priorities, and the need to reframe self-worth away from domestic perfection towards authentic presence and fulfilment. Their conversation is both relatable and transformative, offering tools to rediscover calm and nurture inclusive, supportive family cultures.
A key takeaway from this episode is the transformative potential of self-awareness and communication—by recognising personal needs and openly sharing them with family, mothers can move from daily overwhelm to genuine calm, benefiting not only themselves but everyone in their household. Listeners will come away with actionable insights for fostering gentler, more resilient family life.
The views and opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of Inclusion Bites, SEE Change Happen Ltd or Joanne Lockwood. This episode is shared for general interest and discussion; we accept no responsibility for the accuracy or completeness of any statements made.
