AJ explores the power of authentic queer and bipoc storytelling, the challenges of independent animation, and the importance of creating unapologetically inclusive media that offers hope, validation, and representation to communities.
Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuaryfor bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood,your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart ofinclusion, belonging and societal transformation.Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world without? Remember, everyonenot only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone.Join me as we uncover the unseen, challengethe status quo and share storeys that resonatedeep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you'resipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let'sconnect, reflect and inspire action together.Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach outto jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.ukto share your insights or to join me on the show.So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time toignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.And today is episode 193with the title Animating Queer Futures.And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome AJ.AJ is the founder and creative director of 3dioStudios, a queer bipoc woman led indiestudio creating adult anime series, animated seriesPoison Us. And she also championsglobally resonant LGBTQ storytelling.So when I asked AJ to describe her superpower, she said it is telling
Joanne Lockwoodhost
storeys and it is something she loves to do and always hasdone. Hello, AJ, welcome to the show.
AJ Hannahguest
Hello. Thank you for having me. Absolute pleasure. This is our
Joanne Lockwoodhost
second attempt. So we tried this probably a couple of months ago anddetect differences between us and anyway, we're back today.Whereabouts in the world are you? You're. You're. You're in the States somewhere. I
AJ Hannahguest
am in the States on the east coast, nearWashington dc. In between that? In between that. So what's the weather
Joanne Lockwoodhost
like this time of year? Is it getting colder? Is it. It is getting colder,
AJ Hannahguest
but it's that nice fall cold where you're wearing your plaidand your. Yeah, it feels really nice. And thepollen has finally died down a little bit because it's just cold enough to killoff that last round of like weeds and hay fever. That really tries.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. So it's nice, soft, warmish. We just
AJ Hannahguest
had Halloween. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Yes. So the
Joanne Lockwoodhost
trick and treating is big in the States. I mean, over here it's become becomingsomething, but probably not as big as it is in the States. Big
AJ Hannahguest
in the States. I have two kids and they were justtearing through the neighbourhood in the pitch blackness and I was like,great, awesome. Door to door. We noticed over here is you go to
Joanne Lockwoodhost
the local cinema and they're Doing reruns of all the horror movies. Sort ofOctober is horror movies these and then everything is there. All theHalloween movies or the, all the Freddy Kruegers and all thisother stuff. Final Destination comes out. I think they bring that back. And so yeah,there's a lot of. Culturally we seem to do a lot of horror movies onat the cinema at this time of year. Yeah, we have a
AJ Hannahguest
decent amount of horror movies come out on like the streamingplatforms and then there's some that show like, hey, you have alimited showing in theatres, but I mean it'd be nice to do, to do that,but you'd have to find one of those smalltheatres that probably do it. We do, we'rebig on Rocky, the Rocky Horror Picture Show. A lotof theatres. Yeah, they'll either show it or they'll have like liveacts or plays of it that go on the same time the movie's running. Likethat's a big thing. So you never thought about your indie studio knocking out some
Joanne Lockwoodhost
R rated horror then? We actually have a
AJ Hannahguest
thriller piece that we want to work on and it is,it's got two women who try to seekrevenge on men who I guess treat womenpoorly. It's called the Manslaughter Project andso it's one of those thriller comediesthat. But we're, we're, we're way in, we're still in pre production with that.So that's. Yeah. Oh, sounds intriguing. So I, I noticed from your
Joanne Lockwoodhost
bio that you sent through that your studioaims to be a gayer and more colourfulDisney. That's an ambition, isn't, is an ambition.
AJ Hannahguest
When you think about Disney? We have just this titan in theindustry right now and it's, I mean, I grew up on Disney.A lot of us grew up on Disney. We watched themovie the Lion King and really formative in our years.And then, not to say, I mean, Disney still does great stuff,but there's a whole section of Disney that I feelcould be better. Andthen we had the closings in the last couple of years of alot of our DEI sectors and our LGBTand bipoc and women were laid off.If you know anything about the animation industry or the Hollywood industry,the animators and artists, while they are a lot oftimes female, they very rarely reach thoseopportunities to become the creators or to become thedirectors or become somebody that can actually call shots.So once that started happening, a decent amount of us stillwanted to create and we wanted to create projects that werereflective of who we are and when thisstudio was formed, we decided, okay, this is going to be.Our mission, is to tell these sort of storeys thatare missing in Disney. So when I say more colourful, I mean Disney's colourful
AJ Hannahguest
when it comes to colour and we love colour,but we also want colourful, as in the differentshapes and colours of peoplerepresented. So the main character isn't always,you know, a person, you know, a white girl or a whiteboy or a white maletoy or a. I mean, you can argue thatLightning McQueen, he's a car, you know, he's a bright redcar. But we kind of know the demographic that herepresents. You know, between the manner of speakingand the voice actor andall of that, you. You kind of get the hint as to where hefalls. So that's what we want to do, is we want to bringmore people of colour in andqueer people in and people that haven't been able to reallylead and put those things in toanimation into storeys without thatpushback from the board or, hey, you need to rewrite this.There was not exactly recently, but Disney hadthat character who was trying to tell herstorey through baseball or softball and sheis trans and they had.While the aspect of her transness still stayed, certain scenes werecut out, like the scene of her having to choose in the locker room, thatwas cut out. The. Some of the language was cut out whenshe was trying to come out. And so we don't want to have tocensor those sort of things, if that makessense. But yeah, it's a big game, it's a big, big reach,but we're going to do it. I think it's down to responsibility
Joanne Lockwoodhost
of organisations and production companies like yourselves to take this messagingon, because we can all criticise Disney and other corporates for their stance,but we have to recognise they operate in territories all over the world. Some ofthose territories. It's illegal to be queer in any shape or form.They've got sponsors, they've got money, they got shareholders, they've got everything going on. Sothey are trying to tow this middle line and we can complain thatthey're selling out and they're not really standing up for us. I'drather invest in some, in an organisation such as yourselvesthat aren't. Well, you're unashamedlyqueer, queer led and you're trying to push that messageout to the masses and you're not, you're not actually going to be swayedby someone saying, oh, you can't say that in China or no, in, in the.In The Middle east. You're going to have to cut that bit out and changethat word. Aiming at a queer audience or anally audience who are receptive to the message of Chantel,aren't you? Yeah. There are
AJ Hannahguest
people that are obviously going to say, hey, this isn't.We can't show this here. And it's okay, fine, don't show it.That's the people that will want to see it. They'll reach forit, or they'll take it and they'll grab it and they'll want it. And wehave such a history, a robust history,and even more, you know, future options for the people that, you know, don'twant to see queer or don't want to see people of colour in theforefront. They still have all of their options. We're not taking anything from them,obviously. We are building a media andplatform for people that want to and need thatsort of representation, want to have and need that sort of representation.So we're not worried about. I mean, even in China, wheresometimes you'll get censored stuff, they'll still go, andthe queer young people of China will still go and they'll findwhat they want to watch. That's just the way it is. Just even in theStates where you try to, you know, block something as simple as,like high schoolers and you're trying to block, I don't know, Reddit attheir school, they'll find ways around so that they can read what they want onReddit. It just, it comes down to, this is what we're makingand we are making it for us and we're making it for our community.And if you don't like it, you don't have to be a part of it.That's fine. Yeah. But the advantage that you have
Joanne Lockwoodhost
is your talent through a queer lens as well. It's not justa straight director or a straightscreenwriter or the production is tend to be people straight with aqueer character or a queer author. Maybe. In thereyou're telling the entire storey and the concept queer first, if you like, whichmeans you're going to get a different version, a different flavourof the output than you would from a mainstream studio. Andthat's the power, isn't it? So someone's quoting Abraham Lincoln the other day.By the people, for the people, by the queer community, for the queer community. It'sgoing to be far more representation, isn't it? Yes, and that's important
AJ Hannahguest
when you want to tell a storey, you can put a queer character in there.Or a character of colour in there. But if you don't have thepeople behind it, the storyboard artists, the writers, thevoice actors behind it that can actually tell that storey ina representative and authentic sort of way, then whatare you doing? That comes back to that 2020 where you're just sort. Itfeels sort of like you're pandering or you're trying togive the people what they want for commercial aspects rather than whatthey're actually asking for. So we have a character inPoison Us in our animated show coming up. We have acharacter who is Filipino and our voiceactress is Filipino. We could have just cast a regular,like any other sort of voice actress like that came to us.We could have found somebody cheaper. We could have just said, hey, we need anAsian voice actress. But no, we want somebody who. That isrepresentative of the demographic that we're putting out there.Other character in Poison Us, Oleander, heis a trans man. And we have atrans person of colour playing Oleanderbecause that's important. It's important and authentic to have somebody in there.And then I can also. If there's moments in the script that don't readright or that maybe need to be changed, we allowthat flexibility to talk back and forth and be like, hey,actually, in this culture, or in. We have thatexchange of ideas, so it's not gonna run up againstsome sort of. I guess. What is that word that I'm looking for?Not political. I'll just use the word inauthentic so that it doesn'tsound inauthentic. When we're creating a character, when we're creating astoryline, we want it to bereflective of other people. Like other Filipinopeople when they see it, or other ace people when they see it, or othertrans men when they see it. We want theirexperiences to be, hey, I actually relateto this. Even though it's set in a world. With magic, I hear something there
Joanne Lockwoodhost
about this authenticity part. And by going backso it's 100% through the eyes, through the ears,through the writing of someone with that lived experience and then portrayed by someone withthat lived experience, the character becomes real to thepeople that it matters to. We see it in mainstream movies all the time. Wethink, well, is that a straight guy playing a gay guy? Isthat. Is he. Is he really getting off on that kiss or that. That lovescene? Is he just performing? And, yeah, act is acting,but if you believe that as well, that's part of the storytelling, is thatbelief in that storey, that message that resonance, actually, thatis my storey as well. And there are so many
AJ Hannahguest
talented people that are not seen inHollywood because it's very much a who you know,or this person knows this person and recommended them.So you end up, or you went to school with this person. And thatleaves out a whole demographic that leaves out several demographics of people. That leavesout people in other countries that maybe couldn't afford to go to scad. Thatleaves out people that, you know, even in this country thatcouldn't afford to go to acting school or, you know, knew that, hey,acting school is probably not my best choice. As a queer person ofcolour. I need something that I can fall back on, that's goingto spend more money, but at the same time, they're agreat voice actor or voice actress and they,you know, do it on the side. They're not represented,they're not being seen by people or they're just. They're thought to betoo niche, so they're not picked up by an agent.There's so much talent out there that,you know, if you just look, you can find it.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I think what you just said there about they're not getting picked up by themainstream agents, films, whatever it may be,because they're not of the typical blend. So what you're also doing is thevaluable part of this is actually putting money in people's pockets,giving visibility to people, amplifying people that would notsort of be amplified elsewhere. So it's not just about telling someone else's storey andthe audience, it's actually providing income into that,into that segment as well, isn't it? Mm. And there's a big critique with
AJ Hannahguest
indie animation right now. There's a lot of peoplethat create their own studios, that create their ownshows. And for pre product, pre production or evensometimes production, they're not paying theirscreenwriters or their voice actors. And for some people,especially getting started in the voice acting scene, I mean, explain exposureor building clips, that's great for them. Some people can do that.And. But indie animation gets a bad rapbecause we're. It's like, oh, you want usto work for free for you? No, Wideo doesn't want you to work for free.No, we pay everyone. Except for me. I don't get paid right now. Andthat's fine. I put all the money back into the company and back into theartists and animators and people that work with me to create ourprojects. We know that, especially with all the peoplethat got laid off, it's important to have income, any kind of income.And right now we can't afford to pay union rates. Wewant to. And we want to be able to pay union rates to peoplethat are underrepresented, are. You know,without an agent at this point, we don't have that sort ofincome. Our Kickstarter has the goal ofbeing able to pay people that. And it's going on right now,but we'll see if we reach that goal, honestly. But until then,I'm paying people. FWDIO is paying people. Wewant people that are underrepresented to get payinggigs so that they can also put on theirresume that they had this paying gig. They have donethis thing for actual money for a company andhopefully launch them even further. Yeah, because that. That c.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
That showreel, that testimony is sovaluable. How can you get experience? And you need experience to get experience.It's. It's a crazy world we live in. So this social proof, this footageyou can give, the portfolio you start helping people build isinvaluable for their career. As well as it is. And I remember going
AJ Hannahguest
into my first job, my first interview at I was15 or 16, and I went in fora stockroom position. Position and at a grocery store.And she asked me if I had any experience. And I said no.Cause I mean, I'm clearly high school at that point. Andshe goes, well, we're looking for someone with experience. And Iremember sitting there thinking, well, how do I get experience if nobody gives meexperience? But I mean, either way, I washired not in the stock room, but I was hired as a cashier up front.So that was, I guess, but that was that first foot in the doorof okay, this is a job. And any kind of jobthat I get, I have to use it to pivot to whatever I'mdoing next. Because it's hard. It's hardto go in there with no experience and try to get something. Especially when itsays, hey, you need to have experience. And that's why I see a lot ofpeople in indie animation doing clips for free, doing voice actingfor free, because they're building that roster. So what is the typical
Joanne Lockwoodhost
length of a feature that you produce? Is thislong hour, two hour, or is this short? We
AJ Hannahguest
have short. Okay, so Poison Us, the pilot is about10 minutes. The next several episodes are also in thatbetween 10 and 15 minute range.Just because that's the amount that we've budgeted for. And we'vealso found that we can tell that short enough storey in that amountof Time. Now, what I was talking about briefly before the manslaughterproject, that's at more of an hour and a halffor a movie length. That's. But again, that oneis still in pre production, so we haven't nailed down the number. We just stillhave the script that we're finishing out andfleshing out and actually I'm looking fora co writer on that one just because thetopic does have a mAJorcharacter, dear Woman, who is part of theindigenous community. And this is one of those projects that I'm not going to goforward on until we have a writer from the indigenous communitythat is wanting to join on this. Becausethat's a cultural icon. I guess icon's the wrong word.That's. A dear woman is a cultural. Dear woman is a part of theirculture that I don't want to mess uppersonally. And if I don't have somebody that canconsult on it and I don't have somebody that can write onit, then that's not something. We're either gonnahave to pivot hard with the film or that one is gonna have tobe shelved because it's just. That's the way ofthe world. Like I. That's the way of foidio, at least. Itdoesn't matter how great it is. It needs to beresponsible, reflective andresonant. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Where do you push these films shorts out? Is thisa YouTube or is it self hosted? Is it through independent cinemasand things? Or a bit of everything? So with Poison Us,
AJ Hannahguest
we have several shorts that come out on TikTok, but theactual pilot will come out on YouTube, but it'll come out onYouTube after we do a separate screeningfor the people in the Kickstarter that havepaid, you know, the $25 to be VIP orwe have. I think we're also debating right nowwhether or not to do a physical screeningalongside. Like a. Alongside the earlyscreening. When it comes to Poison Us, the rest of the episodeswill come out on YouTube. And when itcomes to indie animation, it's kind of like you canmake a pilot or you can make an animation, but then if you endup partnering with another company, like a production companyor a distribution company, then it has to be held untilthey put it on whatever streaming platform it's going to be. We don't have thatissue right now with any of ourprojects. So we get to decide when we're putting them out, which gives usamount of time, whatever amount of time we need to finish itor to make it so if somebody has.Somebody has surgery or somebody needs a mental health break for a week, especiallylike one of my animators or one of the cleanup artists. Okay, cool.Like, if I can't get somebody else to jump in on that week tofill in that piece that we need, that's fine. We will wait a week.We have that luxury right now. And that's great because mental health is so importantto me and it's important to a lot of the people that workwith, you know, in this industry. It's easy to burn out and burn outfast. So your route to monetization is through
Joanne Lockwoodhost
sponsorship. Adverts, YouTube,watch, revenue monetization on the channel. That is that. That's primarilyyour. Your trAJectory to. To revenue generation.
AJ Hannahguest
Yeah. So we have. We have sponsorships. We actually justabout a month ago landed a sponsorship with Toon Boom, which is abig animation software piece inthe field. Big player for 2D animation. So we have asponsorship from them. We also havetwo other sponsorships right now. Andthen we have the Kickstarter going on, which will fund themAJority of the pilot.Ooh, your puppy. Puppy's
Joanne Lockwoodhost
here. Puppy's here. She's getting. She's getting allexcited. She's playing with a nylon bone and she'smaking her very excited. So, yeah, anyway, yeah, sorry,yeah, no. So we have several different
AJ Hannahguest
streams of revenue. So we have the sponsorships, we havethe Kickstarter, we will havemerch also, and we have whatever comes back tous from the YouTube or TikTok, thatsort of thing. And we're. We're thinking about doing Patreon,but that's not something that we've committed to yet.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So this is using sort of modern, you know,sounds quite patronising, modern, young, younger ways of doing this.You know, you're not looking traditional production, fundraising, goingto the usual suspects. This is communitysponsored and fed and the people are sponsoring. You arepredominantly interested in queer bipoc content, so thatyou're accessing that market as well, right? Yeah. So we do
AJ Hannahguest
have. There's a couple of reasons for that. One is that ourtopic and our. What we're producing is niche in theidea of. This isn't what Disney would put on. Thisisn't what necessarily Netflix would pick upbecause it is. Because it is queer and it's bipocand it's right there. So unless we,
AJ Hannahguest
you know, negotiated some sort of control of, you know, contentand creative direction, that's. And that's probably not something that they wouldtake and want to give up those liberties. So there's thereason for that. But the other reason is, yeah, we're community driven. Weare making things for our community by people in our community.And that's what those people want to seeas well. So we're reaching out directly to them ratherthan to a studio or, you know, financialbackers that, I don't know live in the clouds.They don't live in the clouds, obviously, but they people thatwe also don't have access to because a lot of us were in thelower tiers of the echelons of Hollywood.We never had access. There's no way to go up and be like, hey, lookat this script, look at this project that I have an idea for.We never had access to that anyway. So we also don't havethe type of access to the financial thatI guess other creators would have. So we have to put our content.We have to make our content and put it out first and say, hey, look,this is what we have. This is what we love to do. Thisis how good we are. And this is how many people want to seeit. And then maybe they'll be like, oh, hey,do you want to also distribute that over here? Be like, oh,sure, yeah, we can do that and distribution.A lot of times you don't have to give up your creative direction for. Sothat's excellent. So what's the genre
Joanne Lockwoodhost
apart from queer and bipoc? Is there a style? Is it gay atDisney? Is it a Pixar type or is it anime type or.
AJ Hannahguest
So we do 2D animation. We do 2D hand drawnanimation. If you know Boondocks how it had a little bit of thatanime feel, but it was still very American cartoon. That's kindof where we land. It does have a little bit of thatanimation anime feel to it, butit is still very much an American cartoon. Wealso have, yeah, Poison Us is anadult dark comedy. But then we have themanslaughter project, which is also supposed to be like a. But it's a thrillercomedy. And we have a book that came out,which was a rom com kind of bookthat came out earlier in Halloween. That's. We have allkinds of. We're trying to. When it comes to genre, we're trying tospread across. The next thing that we want to also work intois comics and. But that's just, you know, time management.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So you say hand drawn, obviously computer hand drawn onpaper. You know, you're not drawing slope. It's hand drawn.
AJ Hannahguest
But yes, it's Computer. It's not like. It's notlike we're actually doing it on paper anymore. So is this frame by
Joanne Lockwoodhost
frame animation hand drawn, or is this. Are you. Yeah,
AJ Hannahguest
24 frames per second. Yeah, yeah,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
yeah. It's a. It's quite a. Quite a
AJ Hannahguest
mountain of time. But we have such a talentedcrowd, group of people that every time when they come backwith pieces, I'm just like. I was just. I just showed my.My character designer.Why can I not remember the name for that? There's a technical word, there's afur. It's not character designer. Anyway, Ishowed them the key art to one of the pieces ofanimation that has come in recently andthey were like. And I was like, I know, it's amazing.And that's just like for the opening scene, for the opening credits ofthe show. Of the show. Poison Us. Anyway, so how long does it take to
Joanne Lockwoodhost
generate each frame? So presumably you've got some stock foot, you've got some stockanimation that you layer on. You're just looking at thespecific character or their movement or what they're interacting with. Buteverything else is a stock image. Is it? I presume
AJ Hannahguest
not for us. So we have. We have background artiststhat draw in the backgrounds and we have, you know, ourcolour person and our cleanup artist that does the colour.We have. Every character is animatedby our rough animators and fine animators, like our. And ourcharacter animators. So there's not any stock footageright there. Every piece of art that's in there, even likeone of the girls has tarot cards. Even that hasbeen illustrated by one of our people. So it'sa. It's a labour of love. It takes a long time. It's thatfun, I guess, clip or gif that goes around where it's like, animationtakes a long time and it does. I don't expectPoison Us to be out untilI'm shooting for, like, the worldwide premiere dateof Halloween of next year. Just because.Yeah, I know. Just because we do havestoryboards down and we have the voice acting mostly down andall of that. But then we still have to finish theanimation. We have to clean up the animation. There are going to be someeffects to it. We have original musicin it as well. So it's really. Yeah,I mean, it's great. It's coming together, but it takes awhile to make sure that everything hits. And thenthere's that whole thing that you have to do with marketing and run up and,you know, that's like three months within Itself, even ifit's. Done, do the characters
Joanne Lockwoodhost
get modified so they look a little bit like the voice actor? BecauseI think about Jack Black or the Rock or things like this,or Jason Momoa when they're playing. Jason Momoa is in theMoana, isn't he? And his character looks a bit JasonMomoa. Like, do you kind of blend that reality of theperson with the character? Or you have a character and you have the voice.
AJ Hannahguest
That's an interesting thought. So I have had people saypart of it is that, okay, so we had. We have a Filipinocharacter. She's played by a Filipino woman. So we havea Latina character, she's played by a Latina woman. We havea trans man, black character played bya trans black person. You know, thatin a way, they sort of mirror each other or they looklike each other. But I feel like as the series goes on,there's always tweaks in animation, and
AJ Hannahguest
I. I do feel like the characters will look more and more like theirpeople or the people will take on more and more oftheir character. Um,especially. I want to say especially Belladonna,but we'll see. Belladonna isa white redhead and she is anurse. But she'salso, from what I know of the voice actress, they're similar inhow. In their, like, studiousness, I suppose,in the way that they approach the world.And I feel like it's kind of like that thing where you name a babyand it's like, is the baby reflective of the name or is the.Did you name the baby that way because you already knew that the baby wasgonna be, you know, kind of like that? Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I was wondering whether the voice actors themselves,whether people fan over them, you know, sort of like they were following and,you know, I think Disney and other big animation studios now, theypick the actor, voice actor as part of thepromo to get the publicity, get the credibility. There's.I guess you want their acting skills as well. Whereas you go back 20 or30 years, did you really care who the voice actor was if it was animated?You didn't really think about it at all. Whereas now the voice actor isa critical part of the marketing of the movie. So presumablyyour voice actors, when they become part of the queerbipoc community, they're going to be known and people are going to follow them.They'll want the merch. You said they'll ought to be associated with that one,though. Vinvox, who does Oleander. They
AJ Hannahguest
actually do a lot of other indie stuff and they do a lot of otherqueer indie stuff, so they're a person for sureto follow. I always see them everywhere. To me,they're going to be like the next Michael Kovach,like the next. But like. Or they're alreadythat way in, like the queer sphere, you know, I don't know if you knowwhat I'm saying. They're. Do you know Michael Kovacname Isabelle? He does. He's Jaxin. And I don't know, I always say Kovach, but it's not Kovach. It'slike Kovac or whatever. He does Jax in the Digital.The amazing Digital Circus. He voiced Angel Dust in thepilot of Hazbin Hotel. He voices one of the maincharacters in another. And like another big indie thingthat's coming out Lackadaisy. So he's. He'sa big indie voice actor right now. Vinvox to meis kind of like that. They're ina bunch of stuff and I. When we're indifferent. When I'm popping around through different indiespheres or indie, like the communication channels when I'mon. I'm gonna call it Twitter. When they're. When I'm on Twitter or Blue skyor any of that, I see them there a lotin the projects for those upcoming things, for those upcoming pilotsor the indie work. And they're just. They go.They're like a machine with how much they audition and put out.So, yeah, they're going to be up there in one of thesedays and I'm going to be like, ha, ha. You talked about. We talked about
Joanne Lockwoodhost
funding and how you raise capital for these projects. Isthere a kind of like an umbrella funder so that people want to getinvolved? They could sort of fund a funding organisation who thenhands out money as needed. We can bid for moneyfor your project or do people invest direct for indieprojects? As far as I know, people invest directly into the
AJ Hannahguest
indie project, whether that's through the indie projectsPatreon or that's through purchasing the Merch or, for example,our stuff. Um, we have the Kickstarter opena lot of those. Lackadaisy, which was another indie project,did a Kickstarter for their pilot and for their first couple of episodes.And that's where if you wanted to fund them, you would godirectly to, I guess, them and fund it. But that's a. I mean, that'sa good idea. I don't know of anybody that actually takes in the,hey, we. We want to, you know, we want to fund indie Animation, especiallyqueer indie animation or we want to fund indie, you know,media in the queer and, you know, people of coloursphere. I want to give you the money and then you can distribute it. That'sa great idea. I don't know anybody that, that does that. Wish Idid. You want some sort of philanthropist, don't you, as a, a huge
Joanne Lockwoodhost
bundle of cash somewhere who you can embidto for your project. You want, I don't know, hundred thousanddollars or something? Absolutely. I tell people all of
AJ Hannahguest
the time if I didn't have to do any of the fundraising,that would be amazing. Like if I had someextroverted clone of me that wanted to goschmooze and talk to people and, you know, bring backthe sponsorships or the deals or the indie animation.Amazing. Because I'm an introvert at heart. I'm a behind the cameraperson. I absolutely, absolutely likeabhor going out and having to do this, but I do itbecause I believe in the cause. So
Joanne Lockwoodhost
you said. Yeah, you said Poison Is what, 15 minutesthereabouts? Is that right? So what does 15minutes of poison Us take in terms of funding? You know,obviously don't have to give me your exact figures, but just. Are we talkinga hundred thousand dollars? We're talking $200,000, we're talking a million dollars.What do we talk about that? That's a great, that's a great question we have
AJ Hannahguest
right now. We could do it in about$50,000, but that wouldn't pay people what Iwant to pay people. So I wouldlove to get $90,000 for the Kickstarter so thatI can pay people living wages.And again, that's not me taking any money, that's them, you know, me paying peopleto take money to do this workso that they can get living wages. When it comesto, you know, and union. Union,I guess, wages when it comes to doing this sort of work.That would be about $90,000 for an episode.Yeah, but we're gonna, if we have to,we'll squeeze it through there. So what was going through my mind
Joanne Lockwoodhost
was it's not a lot, but it is when you're trying to, when you're tryingto get it, get the cash in. Especially when you'reniche, you haven't got big budgets and big, big marketingdepartments. You say you're doing it all yourself. You're a little introvert sat there inyour studio begging for money, which is not your forte.
AJ Hannahguest
No, you know, I'm actually one of those people that I can't Even I've beenin instances where I needed to hitchhike. I can't evenwork up the courage to stick my thumb out on the highway. I wouldrather end up walking 10 miles than ask for help.And, and so this is a whole newworld that I'm going into because I want, you know, I want thesepeople to see their passions come to life. Iwant these people to be paid and they should be paid what they're worth.And I'd love to do that. I'm just, you know, Idon't come from a tonne of wealthwas born. I'm the first in my family to go to college, to graduatecollege, I should say, you know,I don't know that I'm the first to like be out, you know, out asa queer person. But Igrew up in upper middle class, but Igrew up in a way that was like house poor,I guess. So we have a, we have anice big home kind of that I grew up inthat districted to a nice school district so that I could get the education.My dad's originally from West Virginia. He basically finishedhis high school education and went straight into a unionjob. And as a, you know, black American with a highschool education in order to get into upper middle class, that was abig thing. So yeah, that's not. If I had themoney, if, you know, if my dad was able to donate a million dollars tostart my, you know, whatever, that would be great. Butthat's not how it is. You know, we're here andthis is, I've got to do it myself. And that isperfectly fine. Love doing things by myself.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So how did you get into this? Is this something you went, you picked upat school, college, university, or did you get a. You've had acareer first and you then said, hang on a minute, I want to jump outof that corporate BS and start my own thing. What, what kind of.How do you, how do you set the studio up? Got you into it? I
AJ Hannahguest
wish, you know, part of me wishes that, yeah, I had that corporate thing thatI could, you know, fall back on. But no, I, I was ajournalist for about a decade and then journalism really startedto. I mean, it was already a dying industry when I went into it asan 18 year old who didn't know that I shouldn't be taking out all thosestudent loans for journalism. But I did thatfor about a decade and for a couple of years you could see thewriting on the wall. And I tried to get out, I triedto pivot I tried to, you know, look for something else, but itjust wasn't happening. And I actually didwhole, I think segment on the podcast,this queer book saved my life or something like that abouthow I ended up readinga storey about two Sapphic womenwho not only fell in love, but there was also likethis otherworldly mystery that was going on.And I was like, oh,this can be mainstream. And so I was like, well, whyaren't there more storeys like this? Where can I find more storeys likethis? And one of the, one of the Sapphic women was a person of colourtoo. So it was like, it was just hitting all the notes for me. Itwasn't just like a coming out storey or like a first love storey or arom com. It was like this thing that had a little bit oflike sci fi mystery to it. It had, you know, aperson of colour as a main character. It had, you know,adult overtures. It wasn't just like a high school, you know,storey. So I tried to look for more of those storeysand I, and I found a few, but they're so hard to find. Andthere were mostly indie creators andI had had some connections in the industry beforethe whole journalism collapse and I hadalways wanted to get back to creative writing. So I was like, you know what?And then all those DEI shut offs were happening and layoffs and stuff in theanimation industry and I was like, okay, wellif nobody else is going to do this, we're going to do this. Let's dothis. Let's come together and start making stuff andactually put it out there for people that want it and needit and we don't have to. Let's stoptrying to pitch to people that aren't going to listen to us anyway.So yeah, that's, that's kind of the long and short of how I ended uphere. So you mentioned the layoffs, the dei,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
the political climate. In passing there. We're living in a, I hate thisword, unprecedented. Everything's become bloody unprecedented, isn't it?But the world as we know it has been kind of kicked into the orbitat the moment. What's going on? The pushback against dei, the pushback againstwhat we thought was progressive moves to be a more inclusiveculture, society, workplace now seems to be kind offighting against right wing extremism, doesn't it? Andare you fearing that within what you're doing? I mean, it's precedented in
AJ Hannahguest
the way of like Nazis, but to be, you know, quitehonest, yeah, in Is there ways that I fear it?Sure. My. Even back in, when I was a journalist, still my face wasput on a white supremacist website for what I write about.Know that we're not going to get certain funding and I know that we're goingto get blowback from people in the right wing. That's if we ever getpopular enough to be seen by them as pushing an agenda.But that's not. What else am I going to do? Compromise my morals? Whatelse am I going to do? Pretend to be someone that I'm not? They alreadyknow. They, the big. They already know who Iam. I'm already I. For a lot of us, we have nothing else tolose. We lost our jobs, you know, we, welost our source of income. We are struggling againstplaces that aren't going to hire us because of the names that we haveon the application or because we are bornfemale or because, you know, we'repeople of colour or because, you know, a Google search willshow you that this person is queer. We're alreadythere. So what's to stop us? Imean, is the smart thing tolay a bit low? I suppose, butlaying low is not helping in a way, I guess, likewe're not, we're not making that sort ofhealthy impact on our own life. We touched on it right at the beginning
Joanne Lockwoodhost
of this. Who are we doing this for? Who are you doing this for? You'redoing it for the queer community, for the bipoc community. You're doing it for peoplewho look up to you as people, who are representing themand having a voice and giving them hope. I think if you laylow, what you're doing is you'recopping out, you're doing what corporates do all the time. Theysay it's just too difficult, we'll step away from it. And Idon't think we, and I say we, as in marginalised communities,we have a responsibility to say, hang on a minute, I'm notgoing to lay low, I'm not going to hide. I'm here whetheryou like me or not. In fact, the more I'm distasteful to you, themore I'm going to make myself in your face because Iwant to remind you that I'm not going to go away. And I think that'sthe world we're in at the moment, isn't it? Try and repress us, try andoppress us, try and shut us down, but we've gotto keep existing just to beunpalatable to the people who don't. Like us, I guess.
AJ Hannahguest
So there's. I have two thoughts on that. One is that Michelangelopainted the Sistine Chapel and he wasn't necessarily religious, Right.But he painted this religious, beautiful piece of artthat is recognised now. And soit's. I have the thought of how can we besubversive or kind of, how can webe there and very much still be loud andshowy, but also like just under theirnose enough to where we'reable to paint on their ceiling? And then theycome back and they don't realise it at first because of all of theprejudice that they have in their hearts. And it's not until years laterthat they realise, oh, this beautiful piece of artwas made by like this little gremlin of a person.But so I. I have two thoughts. Yes. And I never.I don't do things for people. I've been told in the past that peoplelook up to me for stuff and I don't necessarily do thingsfor people, for other people. I don't know if that's the autism in meor if that's just the. Hey,I don't have the time to process other people thinking aboutme in any sort of capacity.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Nobody sets out to be a role model, do they? Nobody sets out to bea people's champion. People will accuse you of it and you go,okay, if you think I'm a role model or other people's champion, thank you, Iappreciate the. But I don't do it for that. No.
AJ Hannahguest
So I. It's more of the play in their face,like, okay, you're gonna lay us off. Okay. You're going to not giveus jobs, Fine. Okay, you're not going to putour characters in front of the audience.Fine, we'll do it ourselves. We'll do it.We'll build it and make it and put it out there. And just becauseyou don't want it doesn't mean it's not going to be out there. Doesn't meanit's not going to not be made, doesn't mean it's not going to not exist.It's still going to exist. That is, Iguess, where I come from in the whole.Yeah, let's. For what purpose do I do this? If that makes sense.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Presumably, I look at why I do what I do sometimes and I use. Probablyuse the word hope. You don't buy a lottery ticket expecting to win the lottery,but if you buy a lottery ticket, at least you've got some hope you've gota Dream. You can pretend you think, oh, if I won, what would I spendthe money on? So people don't buy lottery tickets. If anything other than a dreamor a hope. And I think I could be repressed bysociety. I could have people telling me I'm not good enough. I'm this, I'm that.I'm a Byron. All the things people say about queer trans people, whatever,and I could just be downtrodden by it, or I could say, actually,I want to have power. I want to have agency. I want to reclaim that.I want to be part of a wider community. I want to be in themiddle of that, because that gives me hope. It makes me believe that I'm notalone. It makes me believe I'm part of something bigger. So I think that's whyI do. What I do is to be part of something bigger than me, soI get hope. And I can. By helping others.I don't worry about helping me anymore because I'm part ofeverybody. And I think that's why I do what I do, and that's why Iwon't stop doing what I do, because it gives me a purposein life to do something. That's a good reason. It's
AJ Hannahguest
good to have a purpose, I guess. Like, it's goodto have a purpose and to have a reason and to. And to give peoplehope. And that's very positive. Ido things on the opposite spectrum. I do themfor chaos and vindicationand, you know, that sort of troublemaking. Yeah, good
Joanne Lockwoodhost
trouble. Good trouble. You tell me it's wrong. You tell me I can't do this.
AJ Hannahguest
Fine, I'll do it. Like I don't care. Fuck you.Yeah, that kind of. All right. Fuck you. We'll do it.You're not gonna stop me from doing it. Part of that comes from a lotof people of colour. Queer people of colour especially. We realise early onyou gotta be twice as good to get half as far just because ofthe way that you look. So as a. As a person of colour.So then once you add in, like a. As a queer person of colour, asa trans person of colour, it's like, fuck it. Like, we'regonna. We already know we gotta work hard for anything. So you're alreadygonna tell me I can't have it. So I'm not gonna. Like.Doesn't necessarily mean I actually can't have it. It just means you're gonna tell meI can't have it, and then I just gotta work twice as hard to provethat I can. Do it. So what's it matter? But the secret is you
Joanne Lockwoodhost
don't want. Don't want them to have it anyway. You don't want what they have.You don't. You don't. You don't want it on their rules. That's what you're doing,what you're doing because you wanna create your own rules, create your own platform, createyour own audience. It's that sense of justice, like what is right
AJ Hannahguest
and what needs to be right and what should be right.Everybody should be equal. Everybody should get an opportunity. Everybody should havethis. If they have this potential, they should be able to show it. It'sthat need for justice. It's that need to be able to danceon the graves of your enemies. Like, that's whyI do things. I continue to live for spite. Icontinue to be me for spite, you know, for hope. And that's. It's,it's great to have hope because you need to have the dichotomy. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
well, I know that I. People off just by existing,just by speaking, just by being. Being in spaces. I. I upset people. I knowthere's people in the room who look at me with their. Down their nose going,oh, you're not normal. It's like. I go, hell, yeah. Hell yeah.Good. Is it sometimes intimidating? Yeah, absolutely.
AJ Hannahguest
Do I always. There have been times when I'vewished I don't look the way that I do.Not because, like, I don't like who I am, but just because I don'tlike the attention. But it's never actually stopped me from doinganything. So. Can I unpack that a bit? You say you don't
Joanne Lockwoodhost
like the way you look, or you just look like a youngperson of colour. Queer person. I mean, you didn't look queer. You just lookedlike a young. A young. Yeah. Well, and that's the, that's the thing
AJ Hannahguest
is like. Okay, so as a person of colour, you alreadystand out sometimes. Going into a classroom orgoing into a business or going into, like a boardroom.You're already kind of standing out as a person of colour because that's not,you know, that's not what. I don't know.You just. You, you are. You get that. That blowback sometimes, or you get that,you know, second glance. And then for the longest time, likeright now, I don't have it on, but for the longest time, Icouldn't wear a binder because even wearing a binder,I still had it. Just made it look like Ihad a sports bra on. I'm Non binary. I'm gender fluid.So. So, you know, I do a lot of she her. That's the way Igrew up. But there were so many times, especially posthaving kids where I was like, Iam not a she her. Especially today. But I couldn't, Icouldn't do anything about it. I couldn't wear a binder. I couldn't, you know, orI could, but it just didn't, it didn't give me that whateversense of who I am.And I got top surgery. So nowI'm able to be femmewhen I want to or feminine presenting when I want to, and I'm able tobe masculine presenting when I want to. They took five poundsoff the top. Five pounds. And I still havea significant, you know, thing here. Sothat's. But it was quite something. So you had,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
you were well endowed up top. Yeah. So I
AJ Hannahguest
haven't always felt that I look the way that I should.And I haven't necessarily always liked the attention,whether it was because, hey, you're a black person in thisupper middle class boardroom or you're a black person inthis, you know, advanced placement class, oryou're a. Clearly you're a womandoing this very masculine thing. I guess in thoseways, if that makes, if that does a little bit,digs into my treasure box. Yeah. I mean, I have
Joanne Lockwoodhost
a experience. I walk into rooms of several hundredpeople. I got on stage, speak to people, 600 people in the audience.Statistically, there will be other trans or gender diverse people in the room,but often I'm the exception. You know, I geton a bus, I get on a train. Generally I'm the only trans woman inmy immediate, visible, immediate, immediate circle there.So I'm used to walking into places, being the old oneout, or people look at me and go, what's your name? And you say,and they say, yeah, it's Joanne. Yeah, Joanne.Okay. They're kind of querying it or they hear the voice and notsure. I've kind of got, I don't know, over the last 10,12 years, I've been. I kind of got used to it andI don't even think about it anymore. I don't know, just maybe I'm privileged thatI can not think about it. But yeah, I get away with it.And people don't say anything if they doThem. Them. Yeah, no, I still get that sometimes. I'll get
AJ Hannahguest
that liberated feeling when they go, oh, thank you, sir. AndI'm like, yes, yes. Like, yes. Especially if, like,I'm checking out at a grocery store or something like that. And I'm having avery masculine day and I'm, you know, have a binder on and I'm dressed inbaggier clothes and I have my beanie and stuff like that. I'm like,yes, like that's. Or when they do that very longpause. For me as somebody that's like non binary orgender fluid. Awesome. You don't know what I am. Great. Love it. Because I don'tknow what I am half the time either. Ha ha. That's the whole point. I
AJ Hannahguest
think that that goes along with that autism thing of like, we just like to.We don't think about ourselves a lot as like,people, so as people with like physicalstationary planes of being. So it's like,okay, you want me to determine if I'm a boy or a girl today?That's like, can I just not be me, the creature that I am?But yeah, no. But then there's the. There are some dayswhere I guess maybe one day I'llhave the less thought about walking into a roomand seeing who I am being reflected on people'sfaces. But I'm still very muchin that young portion of thinking about what other peoplethink about me, and I hate doing that. Itry not to do that. At least thinking about what otherpeople think about me in the physical sense of my being.That's something that like, comes up often enough because I haveto, you know, you have to think about physical safety and blah, blah, blah, blah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Most people are more worried about themselves than they are about other people even noticeyou most of the time. Yeah, no, that's. That's true.
AJ Hannahguest
And I. I'm also one of those people that can be a little bit.I have two kids. I have two younger kids. So Ihave found that I will step in front of them moreto protect them and not care as muchabout my physical body as theirs. But then again,I didn't always think about my physical body that much.So it's one of those weird moments where it's like I know their. I don'twant their physical body to be harmed, but like,forgetting that I have one that can also be.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah, I don't know if it's. I've. I've kind of reached thissort of plateau of existence whereI don't think about, yay, I'm a woman. Yay, I'm this. Yay, I'mthat. Which is, I think, what Cis people feel. They don't have any kind of.They don't get up and go, yeah, I'm a bloke today. Oh, yeah, I'm awoman. Great idea. Yeah. They just are. And I think I've found thisplane of existence where I don't wake up thinking, yay, I'm a woman, or anythinglike this. I just wake up being me. But I still get. I still getqueer joy, or trans joy, by someone saying, mind this lady,she's coming, you know, or mind this lady with her puppy or something like this.You know, people are talking about me and I. Oh, yes. So those,Those micro validations you get arebrilliant. But apart from that, I guess I'd be pissed off if theysaid, mind this man or mind this bloke or something.I probably would get upset. But no, I. There's little moments ofjoy where people get it right without. Without prompting. And I'm. I'm not feelingparticularly glamorous at that moment. I'm just wearing my hoodie ormy wear. Wear a pair of jeans and I think, oh, life's good,life's good. But take in the joy and let everything else wash over you.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah, that's right, it is. And it's. I think you get too hungup on worrying about what other people think of you because you start torealise that they don't. They don't think about you, they think about themselves orthey're rushing for something. The example I often use is if you'vegot a photograph, like a family photograph with a wedding or something, andthere's 20 people in it, you hand the photograph around. Nobodylooks at anybody in that photograph apart from themselves. Everyone, oh, I've got myeyes closed. I don't like my glasses in that one. Or they're standing like thatand you won't notice anything about them because you're too busy looking about you andsay, people just. People care about themselves. People will always look forthemselves in a photograph. They'll always worry about themselves in public and they'retoo busy getting on their life. And I realised that and I think,okay, all I gotta do is just get on with my life. They'll get onwith theirs. If I don't interact at that moment, we'll probablynever interact again in our lives. So it doesn't matter. True.
AJ Hannahguest
Very true. It's like that high school thing. Not everybody's looking at you.Don't worry about it. Nobody cares. They're worried about themselves. They're worried about
Joanne Lockwoodhost
themselves. When you realise that, life becomes much simpler if you justworry about yourself and don't worry about what other people think of it. Worry about
AJ Hannahguest
yourself. Yeah. Because they're not thinking about you.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
They don't care unless you tell them to care. Unless you show that you care.
AJ Hannahguest
Unless you show that it's like a weakness or something like that. Yeah, yeah,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
yeah. Then they can turn that against you or whatever thing. Butgenerally it's their own insecurity that's coming out, not you.
AJ Hannahguest
True. Yeah. But I've turned 60, so I guess
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I'm. I've had a lot of life and a lot of experience that I've learnedthese lessons. And if you're younger, you're still trying to figure yourself out,still trying to fight your way in the world, then I guess thesechallenges are real. I'll get there. I'll get there one day.Yeah. When you're a fantastic queerstudio, Gay Disney celebrated the world overwith revenue coming in and people looking to fund you, and you'll be sat theregoing, I made it. It got there in the end. And now givingeveryone the finger if they're not interested. Yeah. All my
AJ Hannahguest
wrinkles don't matter. The way that I look in my physical body doesn't matter.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. Elevate yourself to Whoopi Goldberg status, won't you, where you'll be kind of likethis really celebrated person that. Who doesn't give. Whodoesn't give a flying fuck about anybody else because they've made it,and that's. That's where you're going to be. You're going to. You're going to becelebrated. True. You just got to project
AJ Hannahguest
confidence, I guess. Project confidence. Just. Yeah, just go for
Joanne Lockwoodhost
it. Go for it, A.J. we've had a fantastic hour. I mean,I feel like I just carry on chatting to you, and it's a shame you'reso far away, because I'd love to drop in for a coffee one dayand see the studio, but. Yeah, no, it's been lovely talking to you,and I'm glad we got this reschedule. And our littlepuppy made an appearance halfway through just to say hello, which is good. It wasnice to meet you. Yeah. Our first podcast. Somany of my other episodes, I've had other people's dogs joining the show, and thisis the first time I've had my own puppy joining inmy podcast. So. Yeah, that's right. I don't know whereshe is now. I think she's fallen asleep somewhere. So she's. Puppies needs lots of
AJ Hannahguest
rest. Puppies need. Not so. Well. I need to take her out for a walk.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Now it's just about turned get dark so I need to put my head torchon and get out there and take her for a walk. Okay.Thank you so much. It's been amazing. Thank you. It was great talking with you.As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to expressmy deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lendingyour ear and heart to the cause of inclusion.Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to InclusionBites and become part of our ever growing communitydriving real change. Share this journey with friends, family andcolleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter.Got thoughts, storeys or a vision to share? I'm allears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk andlet's make your voice heard. Until next time, this isJoanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return withmore enriching narratives that challenge, inspire andunite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world oneepisode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.
In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood welcomes AJ Hannah to explore the vibrant, challenging, and timely subject of animating queer futures. Together, they consider what it means to reimagine the animation industry—traditionally dominated by mainstream narratives—through unapologetically queer and intersectional lenses. AJ and Joanne unpack how authentic representation behind and in front of the camera can disrupt stereotypes, empower marginalised creators, and spark meaningful social change, especially amidst political and cultural backlash against inclusion. Their discussion deftly traverses the realities of building a grassroots, diversity-first studio, funding hurdles, the significance of community-driven support, and the defiant joy of making space where others refuse to tread.
AJ is the founder and creative director of FWDIO Studios, a queer-led, BIPOC woman-founded indie animation studio. Her current projects, including the adult animated series Poison Us, position her on the frontline of championing globally resonant LGBTQ+ storytelling. Drawing on her background in journalism, personal journey as a gender fluid person of colour, and determination to provide platforms for talent overlooked by traditional Hollywood, AJ weaves her lived experiences into the narratives and opportunities she creates. Her focus is on telling the stories major studios eschew, ensuring characters and talent genuinely reflect the communities they represent both on screen and behind the microphone.
Joanne and AJ probe the nuances of representation, from refusing to erase queer identities for wider market appeal to the importance of paying underrepresented artists a fair wage. They address the responsibilities of queer-led organisations to hold space for authentic narratives and discuss the realities of operating without corporate safety nets—fuelled by defiant hope, community investment, and the will to dismantle outdated norms. With stories of resilience, creative chaos, and the pleasure of minor acts of rebellion, this episode offers both practical insight and inspiration, urging listeners to consider how inclusion is brought to life—not just in storylines, but within every line drawn and every voice amplified.
A key takeaway from this conversation is the transformative power of authentic, unapologetic storytelling that centres queer and BIPOC voices—not as an act of tokenism, but as an act of justice, hope, and cultural reclamation. Listeners will be inspired to reflect on whose narratives are missing, understand the value of investing in grassroots inclusion, and feel encouraged to be part of the movement animating a more inclusive future.
The views and opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of Inclusion Bites, SEE Change Happen Ltd or Joanne Lockwood. This episode is shared for general interest and discussion; we accept no responsibility for the accuracy or completeness of any statements made.
