From Blind Spots to Superpowers: Unlocking True Inclusion in Team Dynamics
Susan Drumm explores the art of embedding lasting inclusion by uncovering invisible team patterns, leveraging the neuroscience of leadership, and channelling the transformative power of music to foster curiosity, empathy, and authentic growth.
Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuaryfor bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood,your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart ofinclusion, belonging and societal transformation.Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world without? Remember, everyonenot only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone.Join me as we uncover the unseen, challengethe status quo and share storeys that resonatedeep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you'resipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let'sconnect, reflect and inspire action together.Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach outto jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.ukto share your insights or to join me on the show.So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time toignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.And today is episode 209 with thetitle Inclusion that actually Sticks.And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Susan Drumm.Susan is a leadership advisor and coach who helps organisations
Joanne Lockwoodhost
turn diversity into everyday performance byembedding inclusive habits that build trust, voice equityand that lead to better decisions. When I askedSusan to describe her superpower, she said that it is spotting theinvisible patterns that quietly run teams andtranslating complex neuroscience into simple,repeatable habits that help leaders widen perspectiveand make space for every voice. Hello, Susan,welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me.Absolute pleasure. We were just chatting away there in the green room before we pushedthe record button and I think you said you're in Arizona, is thatright? That's right, yes. I live in Scottsdale, Arizona
Susan Drummguest
and it's at the time that we're taping in the. Welike to say we have eight months of heaven for four months of hellwhen it comes to our art. Yeah, so you are. It's got cold
Joanne Lockwoodhost
snaps as well. Like right now. It is truly heaven.
Susan Drummguest
It's, you know, I'm trying to think celsius, but about 70 degreesFahrenheit. And so just beautiful, beautifulspectacular weather at the end of January where the rest of thecountry seems to be in a freeze over, but then we pay a pricein the summer where it gets blasted hot. And althoughI. The idea is if you have the flexibility like I do toleave during those months, then you're best to depart duringthose four months of intense heat.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Dusk. Yes, yes. And we can have storms that run
Susan Drummguest
through around that time as well, you know, very heavyrains and then it would be dry. So. Yeah,called the monsoons. Yeah,I really Enjoy it here because I think I'm.I lived in the northeast most of my life, the firstportion. And it was.I just don't do well with living in winter. Very. And Idid also, by the way, live in London for two years. Love that.But I'm addicted to the sun. It just makes me happy. I wantto be in a place where the sun is shining every day. And sometimes peoplesay, well, don't you miss the change of seasons? And I was like, no.If I want to go be in snow, I'll go book aholiday for five days, you know, in a ski resort and get some of thatand then leave. Pop up to Aspen. There's plenty of places with mountains and
Joanne Lockwoodhost
things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a nice. If you can live
Susan Drummguest
in two places, it's ideal because you'll get such incredibleweather whenever, when everywhere else doesn't seem that wayand then go off when it's, you know, moreinhospitable. Yes, yes,yes. Well, I think as human beings, we think we'rechameleons and can see 360 degrees, but wecan't. We have a central vision and a peripheral vision. And where wepoint our focus of attention, that's what we see.And we get very good. We usually develop patterns
Susan Drummguest
about what we want to look at and that becomes a bit of asuperpower because we get so good at looking that direction and studying that andunderstanding that. But there's something behind our head we can't see,and that's our blind spot. In some of the models I use,they very clearly show where your superpower lies,but where you kind of maybe have a liability you're not as familiar with.And I, I like to use models that are moreinclusive in general that show that there's someone else lookingin that direction by their very nature because of what theypay attention to. And so if I'm arguing it's blue, it's blue,it's blue, and you're arguing, no, it's green, it's green. The model starts toshow why that's the case and how actuallythey're your best friend in terms of growth because they'relooking into the area where you may not see what's possible.And so I think when you talked about thesuperpower is for me to reallyhelp people see their patterns and self imposed limitsthat are inherent in who we are and start towiden that gap to shift their perspective so that newopportunities for growth, for successbecome available to them. Yeah. And.For sure it definitely Starts to take this, youknow, for some, more rigid than others. Right. It's like slowlychipping away at what people believe is possible.Exactly. And you can, even more powerfully, if youcan, build the team that's accounting for your blindspots and recognise that the person that triggersyou is probably the person that you have the most growthto learn from. There's something there. And so that's why Ihelp people see the map of that and they can start to see howthis person actually can be beneficial to what they're trying toaccomplish in the world. Yes. That alternate. If you're not careful,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
you grip. Yes. Because you're worried about all these things. Yes.
Susan Drummguest
Yes. And it's almost. My sense is there's. Imean, there's even more gripping to the belief, butanything you resist, you give it power and you give it morepower. So I don't think our answer is sort ofmore resistance. I don't see how that's been working out forus. It's sort of the. I feel like the answer is
Susan Drummguest
curiosity and like, let me. Let me understand thatperspective and let me look from that. And whataspect of this could I incorporate or what gift couldI give because of my superpower, looking in the other way? And it startsto. I think the only way you get there is for people tostart to recognise where that blind spot is, that they have itand where it is, and recognise thatthe gift that you bring to someone else is looking in their blind spot, butthey also look into yours. Yeah, I think, because,you know, anytime I hear, like, that's the way it is, like,I want to be like, is it. Is it the way it is? Um,and I. And I would say we can, if we approachit with curiosity, on different perspectives they get.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
One challenges them to. Without. Right, right. And
Susan Drummguest
a lot of it is we're not really trained with language.Even that's inclusive. Like, you know, you can say,that's really interesting. Here's how I've looked at it before. What doyou think of that perspective? Right. That's very. Inv.Language versus. Yeah, but what about X, Y, Z? Right.And that's what it's like. The energy of that exchange.Then we'll have. Like I said, you bring resistance. The other persongets more resistant in their point of view and then that's when youstart to have the breakdown. Yeah. You entrench in your. In your opposites,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
don't you? Right. Yes. Gosh, it's. It's. This is
Susan Drummguest
the work of our times. Right. Now, you know, andso there's different ways to go about it. I mean, sometimes picking the mostdivisive conversations are probably not the place to start.Like, I think we need to build skillset in having easierconversations first and opening our aperture,then work up to the more difficult ones. And so when I thinkabout teams, when teams are working together, starting tolearn, like what. Why that person is always throwing,let's say, a wet blanket or cold water over your idea, whatare they actually motivated by? What are they actually looking to do?Because you're interpreting their behaviour through your ownmotivations and your own type filter, we would say, andgetting curious about what they're. You know, we make upreasons for why people do the things they do, but that's basedon our own drive of motivation. Right.The transition between how people can becomemore curious and engage in these types of conversations. Because we get stuck.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Get stuck in our. In groups. Yeah. There was a
Susan Drummguest
wonderful video. I think it was actuallydesigned to be a commercial and I think it was Heineken, believe itor not. And the idea was that you could bring peoplewith very polar views together overa beer to actually get to know each other as humans. And it's avery powerful storey. You can find it on YouTube at. Worlds Apart. Do you know?
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Have you seen this? World's Apart? Yeah, Yeah. I use up my training courses sometimes.Yeah. Worlds Apart. Yeah. Very powerful. Yes. So that's. This
Susan Drummguest
is exactly what we're talking about. Right. And so kind of comingwithout the preconceived notions. And what we actuallyfind is we have more in common than we realise. Right. And I thinkthat that storey highlights it really well. Yeah. And the solution is.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Right, right. Tolerant. Whereas if you're just more likely tobe. Yeah, yes, it's. And also, if we approach.
Susan Drummguest
If we approach the conversation with. I want to get youto understand my point of view, then there's an inherent resistance.Nobody wants to be sort of told what to do. Right.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Actually, I want. No, but if I just said. Okay, that's. I think that's. Ithink a lot of the things that black.
Susan Drummguest
Yes, yeah, I totally agree with that.And so in order to help peopleunderstand their patterns, there are a couple differentways we go about that. Twomodalities in particular that I've found to be really powerful.One is working with the Enneagram. Are you familiar with the Enneagram? Have youever talked about it on the show? No. Go for it. Okay, great. Danny Grahamis a powerful model of the way we use it inour work is that you have. There's nine different types of leadershipstyles and each have. They're based onwhat you're motivated to look at. Right. And each have a superpower andeach have a liability that comes with them. And the model isvery powerful because it's a systems model, so,meaning it's showing the interrelationship between the nine differentstyles and how building high performance teams canhappen when you have the right combination ordiversity of these cognitive viewpoints, howpeople think. And so that's a really powerful tool becausefirst of all, people understand their own processof, gosh, yeah, I have developed this superpower to dosomething this way and this is what I'm motivated to look at. But
Susan Drummguest
now I can also see what I don't see behind my head.And you gotta create that opening first, such that then you bringthe team together to say, and look at that person, Charlie,who happens to look in that. And I see nowwhy I can't see what they see, but how it could actuallybenefit me. And that's part of the process and the magic ofthat understanding and then realising, like, we've gotsome leadership style types that are notpresent on the team and we don't even have thatrepresentation of the way that person would think or the types ofquestions they would ask in doing that work. So I thinkwith that type ofbackdrop, this is where we get teams to be higherfunctioning. So that it's not to say, okay, you absolutely have tohire for every single, but recognise where the gaps are,that what's present in the team and have someonedo their best to sort of play that part. Right. What are the types ofquestions? Let's say you're missing the loyal sceptic, which istype 6 on your team. Then you don't have that
Susan Drummguest
counterbalance. Everything is like full steam ahead, full steam ahead. You don't have thatcounterbalance to say, here's the potential drawback, how are we going to mitigate for that?So you will need to, with your team, make sure,before you make a head decision, like we're going to take 15 minutes and lookat what if this goes wrong, because we don'tnaturally have that person on the team that does that. But we knowwe need to take some time to look at that, as hard as it ismaybe for the types that are on the team to do so, we've got todo that so that we make better decisions. And what I find isthen that the best teams arecognitively diverse teams because they're representing these differentperspectives and they're making better decisions as a result. Sothat's. The Enneagram is one big thing. That's one way to do it. And thensome actually do look for, you know, when we make ournext hire, let's look for somebody who seems to have that skill set.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
If you haven't got. Yes, that's exactly right.
Susan Drummguest
So particularly for teams, that's why I've found the tool to bereally powerful. And what's great about the Enneagram is no one owns it. It'san open source model that's been developed, you know, some would saydefinitely over decades, some would say even centuries. Youknow, they're actually finding deep connection withneuroscience related to this. So I, I recentlywas involved in a course called the Neuroscience of Change andthey did an entire segment just on the Enneagram and starting tounderstand how the brain formulates and gets kind ofgrooved into one of these nine types. And a lot of it,of course has to do with upbringing and what we. Things happen tous. Right. As we socialisation. Yeah, yeah. Whatwe make it mean typically falls into nine different styles.And so that, that was very exciting to me because there'sreal neuroscience behind looking atthe world in this way and, and so, but it alsoallows people to recognise in themselvesthat they don't have all the answers. And that's the way you start to getcurious about like, well, you know, I don't have all the answers. Let me, letme ask some questions about people who see the world differently. So I,I find it's a powerful model for people to, to start to openup their curiosity. Yes. You know, there's, there'sanother assessment we use that is looking at yourinternal experience under conflict or stressand in relationship with another person. Andtwo of the dimensions that it's measuring. One is empathy accuracy.Do I. Am I able to understandwhat your perspective is? But another dimension isempathy, compassion and do I care? Right.Am I able to understand your perspective and am I actuallywilling to care about that perspective? And so, wow, whata model for people to start to see. I would say like thepsychopath is the one that is very. Understands what you want but doesnot care. And so these two skill sets, I believe, are goingto be absolutely 100% critical themore AI becomes handling anything onthe logic side of the equation. Theskills that are uniquely human, which are empathy accuracy andempathy compassion, are going to be needed more than ever.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
To whatever it comes out with or challenge it with soul. Yes. Or,
Susan Drummguest
you know, it's kind of interesting. I find that it's alsobaking in trying to be empathetic, but it'sinauthentic. So I don't know if you've played around, but itseems to be very agreeable to whatever I say. Right. Which is why we'vedeveloped our own AI capacity thatfocuses specifically on leadership development under models that havebeen. We've been used for over 20 years. Right. In the field.We know what works and we're also not going to agree with you onevery little thing that you say. And I worry aboutthat from a perspective of AI. If it's always sort of like.That's a really good point. Like all the time. That it'sfurther reinforcing our unwillingness tolisten to others because it keeps reinforcing thatwhatever we believe is right. I remember that's theaddictive quality of it. Right. It's sort of like people want to betold like, you're absolutely right. You know, if I might put,like, is my boss, you know, a jerk for doing X, Y, Z.And yes, he is like, you know, like it'salmost hardwired to agree with you becausethat will keep you coming back. But we've got to recognise, likethere's a slippery slope with that. Yeah. So. Butnot a lot of people do that. They're like, show me where my thinking isflawed here. Let me. I mean that's not a. Peoplewant to be right and they want to be proven right and they will useAI to prove themselves. Right. And AI willcomply. Analysis always kind of, to me.Right, Right. For sure. Look, there's some really.I. The what. The reason we're embracing it as well is because. So people canengage with the content more 24 7. So Ithink there's powerful opportunities here to leverage AIin the right way. I think it's also just to be careful of your own
Susan Drummguest
bias towards wanting the answer that youwant and it giving you that. Yeah, it's.I think today authenticity is going tobe the currency for a new tomorrow. Really?How do you tell what's real anymore? I mean,it's so easy now also to create yourown footage of things. Grok can make that happen.I just saw some really wild things where it can make a still image comealive and make it do whatever you want it to do and it looksincredibly real. So I think, you know,people's own intuition is going to be where you haveto start to rely on versus what you see.Or what you're told, right? Yes. Is the reality.Yes. Yes, it is definitely.Like, we've got to kind of come back toourselves in a way and start building that intuitionquestioning, as you're saying before, like, am I. Am I beingmanipulated and stirred up forsomeone's purpose or not? Your team.Yeah. What I've seen, the leaders that have been able to do thatare as referring back, deeplyconnected to their own, let's say, you know,inner wisdom, inner confidence, inner strength,inner. They know themselves well. And I think there'sa lot out there to help distract you from knowing yourself well. But youonly know yourself well if you actually take some time to go within andmake that pause to do so and helping peopleget back to themselves. And you are your best guide,and you can be curious about what's going onexternally. But I think if we keeprelying on the external to tell us how we feel,we're just setting ourselves up for a world of hurtto come. As a leader, you have to work out what other people see you
Joanne Lockwoodhost
as. Yeah, yeah. The other way that we help people
Susan Drummguest
see the patterns for themselves and howthey might shift them is using music, actually.So I wrote a book called the Leaders Playlist, and it's howto use the power of music and neuroscience to transform yourleadership in your life. And I'm using music both figurativelyand literally. So tying that back into what we justtalked about, starting to discover what is thatplaylist that's no longer serving you? Andbecause essentially what it is, it's a vibration. It's like a belief thatyou're putting out there that the world returns back to you. And somusic is incredibly powerful because it allows you to buildnew neural pathways more quickly and so allows you to createthat new perspective both about yourself and about othersby harnessing that power. So we. We, forindividuals, like, starting to learn what is that pattern thatholds me back, and pairing that with some music to interrupt thatpattern and then creating a new playlist of what the newbelief needs to be and using music to helprewire that and groove it into the brain such that youhave more access to it. That's some of the shifting that we doas well. So it's just a whole nother perspective on howshifts in mindset are possible. So. Right. Right. There's clearly
Joanne Lockwoodhost
metaphors in that. We. There are. And we can be much more
Susan Drummguest
intentional about the music we select by noticing its impacton us. How is it making you feel? What do you notice about that?You know, it was one example. When we go through a breakup, weoften like to hear other sad songs becausewe're mirroring what we're feeling inside. Right. But then if westay stuck there, that's where it becomes. So I had.There was a girlfriend who went through some tragedy in her life and,you know, like six years later, her whole playlist was like sad songs.And I pointed it out to her and she's like, you know, you're right. Isaid, they're. They're sort of keeping you stuck in the past. Right.You're stuck in this pattern and you'rechipping over your past. When you need to be moving forward intoyour future. What do you want your future to be? Andif you have that, let's create, like, what's that newplaylist going to be? And she did and reallytransformed her life by this simple measure.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And it's time to break. Yes, absolutely. And so if I
Susan Drummguest
translate that to an example of how.How do we use this in leadership? Right. Though I'll tell a storey. There
Susan Drummguest
was a woman I worked with who, very talented,chief marketing officer in a biotech company. Andhowever she was having conflict with her peersin the kind of C suite, the feedback that came back was thatshe was not being collaborative in a helpfulway, wanting to kind of get. Would get upset if she wasn't invited tocertain meetings or wasn't. Was left out ofkey communication. And of course, from her perspective, she's like, I'm the chiefmarketing officer, I need to know about these things in order for me to beeffective. But what I was interested in, in what was the playlist she was playingthat was having that show up in her experience. And so we startedto look at where, you know, when I described to her, what is shefeeling when this occurs and she's feeling frustration,she's feeling like she's being excluded.And so I said, okay, well, let's look where else. Is thisa familiar pattern to you? Have you felt this way before? Oh,yes. Right. We could go to the ex husband whonow had the lake house that she used tobring the kids to. They used to go as a family and now the kidswent with just him. And she. Every time they did that, she felt this samefamiliar pattern. Or we go further back when, you know,all of her experience, she could very clearly seeplaces. She was sort of hypersensitive now to feelingswhere she realised she had a playlist called I am Excluded.And so what is her work to do in that is to recognisethat that's sort of like there's a patterning and whatyou look at expands. So she decided to havea song focused particularly to recognise when she's inthis pattern. And she didn't want to have this pattern anymore. And that was Adele'shello. You know, the song is sort of like, hello, can you hear me? I'vebeen calling a thousand times and you won't pick up the phone. Right.And so she was like, when I feel this way. Oh, there's Adeleagain. So what do I want the new playlist to be? And that's where welooked at. She created a new pattern whichwas, again, these are I am statements. I am excluded becomesnow. For her, I bring peace and appreciation.Because she really wanted to focus on what she brought to the community. Soin that, she developed a whole playlist of songs that hadher be in that experience. And the more she did that, themore life started showing up differently for her life andher work. Such that now people saywe need to bring her in. Like, she has coffee everyother week with the person who used to be the one that was excluding herthe most because her energy shifted around that, theirenergy shifted. And that's all you really have control over, is shifting your energy atthe end of the day. So that's the little example of how music can beused to really shift old patterns and create new ones.Right. This is my storey. Adele's never going to get you out of bed in
Joanne Lockwoodhost
the morning. Yeah. And look, it's not to say that we want. The
Susan Drummguest
emotions are very important to recognise and to feel becausethey each have information in us. So I'm not saying don't feelthis way. You feel what you feel, recognise what it is.It's more about when you get stuck in a pattern of feeling thatway where it sort of like becomes the wateryou swim in. That's where there's the opportunity to break free.Well, right now I'm looking at music that sort of moves theworld. And what is music that's going tohave me feel free and empowered to create change that benefitshumanity and others. And so this song, I think, has beenout for a while, but it's really getting. It's called LoveGeneration and it's. It's just a fun song.And so I'm building some other songs like that becauseit reminds me of my mission in the world. I can zone out I could
Joanne Lockwoodhost
get you feeling good. Yeah. I would really encourage listeners to choose
Susan Drummguest
a song that represents something to them about how they Wanttheir day to go and play that in the morning alot. I mean, it's the same looking at. I frequently seeit under these nine patterns. Right. Or beliefs. Itmay be that I can't delegate. I'm the centralpart. No one does it as good as I can. Peopledon't have my back. These are all kind of ways in whichpeople get stuck and not open toreceiving the opportunity that could be there for them. SoI would say there's. There's not one. There's patternsof different belief sets and that's. In the book. Idetail some examples of these. I go into eight or nine
Susan Drummguest
different storeys of the types of leaders and whattheir old playlist was, let's say, and where they're getting stuckand what their new playlist was. But also even their actual music thatthey used to shift that. Well, I think one of theshocking things is you would think at that point like there would be reliefand less anxiety and all those things.So the, the, the patterns of thatsort of like how what you came up against when you made yourmoney is exactly what you're gonna still be dealing with when youhave your money. If there was a lot of fear, then the fear willalso be present when the fear of losing the money.Right. Or it's sort of the same. It doesn't. You don'tchange. And so I have. You don't change unless you do the work to change.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yes. The same emotions can be present because
Susan Drummguest
you've developed those patterns over a lifetime.And so, I mean, you'd be surprised the samechallenges they're facing are what other leaders are facing.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah, I can resonate that. I work in afairly tight small business consulting communityacross HR and people. People.And there's a. There's a common theme of imposter syndrome andburnout and family and conflict of work. We've all gotsomething, haven't we? And it's very similar. Really? Yeah. Yeah.
Susan Drummguest
So it's no different. And I think I can speak to that. Youknow, I'm not intimidated by, you know, that levelof success. It's still a human being that's still got blindspots and gifts and superpowers and how can we leverage more ofthat? But how can we broaden the perspective so that people. Again, I'mjust most interested in people being free and empoweredto create the change that they want to be creating and helpingthem see where they put their own self imposed limits on that andshifting them is the work that I love to do. In the world.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I would have thought they would also respect you meeting them where they'reat as well. And they probably get surrounded by people who arescared, scared of them, but, you know, scared to speak up, scared to sharetheir perspective. And if you could be yourself around them and be relaxed and bea peer as opposed to a subordinate,then yeah, it must be, must be refreshing for them as well.
Susan Drummguest
Yes, yes, I've heard that exact piece. You know, treatme as like I'msolid in myself. I don't. I'm not going to get, you know. In awe of
Joanne Lockwoodhost
anybody. No, it's. Right, it's, it's either a maturityor a. There's a certain point in your life where you, you kind of, youkind of get that, don't you? You kind of become that self confident, self assured.
Susan Drummguest
Yeah. And you don't need to be in awe of anybody. They're just, they're just
Joanne Lockwoodhost
people who happen to have a bigger get up with zeros in their bank accountthan you do. Yeah, yeah. Is there agender difference? You know, is it female executiveprototype or type? Or is there. Is it very similar traits acrossgenders? It's a good question. I feel like
Susan Drummguest
there's, I think it's changing generationally, but let's saymy generation, I'm in my mid-50s and the womenthat have risen through the ranks have. There'sa real sort of like fire a little bit underneath them becausethey've had to kind of break through someinitial bias and so there'sconfidence but also maybeexhausted because that took a lot of energy to get therefor. A number of sort of lean in generations. Cheryl Sandberg sort of thing where
Joanne Lockwoodhost
you having to reclaim your truth and reclaim your powertype generation, that requires a. Lot of energy to do that. So
Susan Drummguest
I recognise maybe some patterns inthat for that generation of women and what they've had to claim.And maybe sometimes it comes through in, well, ifI had to fight and claw my way, so shouldyou, because that made me who I am. It gave them a confidence. Right.But then there's a different expectation whereas, you know, maybea different generation doesn't want to have to fight and claw their way.So having that expectation that that's how you need to be in order tobe successful I think is a limiting. Belief because there's a lot
Joanne Lockwoodhost
of younger billionaires thesedays, isn't there? It's not all Warren buffets in their 70s and 80s.There's a lot of self made Silicon Valleyunicorn leaders in their early 20s makingprinting money, being innovative, creating startups.And they're probably a lot more gung ho. A lot,lot more, a lot less risk averse. They're probably more seat of the pants.
Susan Drummguest
Yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting. I think whatever makesus successful in what we do, we think that's the recipefor success that everyone else has to bottle. And it's not, we're seeing,it's not actually the case. No, but, but I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
guess there's a generational challenge as well. Justthe, the lived experience, you know, we talked about that earlier, the perspectives,it's coming around full circle. You talked about these nine different leadership styles. I'm guessingthen that that age diversity, genderdiversity, ethnicity diversity is all in there and those lived experiencesall help contribute and it's not necessarily true thatjust because you're 60, you're going to be more cautious or just because you're younger,you're going to be more gung ho. That's again a stereotype bias, isn't it?
Susan Drummguest
Yeah, for sure. And that's why I think, you know,these different leadership style types, they're, they're notinfluenced by generation, they're actually how, maybehow it shows up could be a little bit different. Right. Sayinghow someone is more of like the sceptic andhow that shows up. There's just as many in a younger generation aswell, I don't see a distinction. I think it's universal.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So which is the rare blood type, the AB negative of theleadership styles, which is the rocking horse poo?It's hard to find that the last piece of the jigsaw you have to getin your team. Typically I would say what I see
Susan Drummguest
least of, and it may be that it's, I know it has to do withthe industries that I'm working with, but it's the type 4 whichis the intense, creative. Typically that type tends tobe in more creative, like highly creativefields. And so, but they're reallygood at crafting purpose and meaning behindthe work. So if I, you know, I do a lot of work,healthcare, tech, professional services, financial services,those types tend to be missing. But when we do find them, they play ina key role in the team's performance,particularly being able to translate whatever it is that theirgoal is into like the why, what's thepurpose and meaning behind what we're doing? And if anything,I would say the younger generation, they need to hear that. And so the type4 is particularly well suited to help making thattranslation and understanding the why behind whatthe Organisation is trying to do the way. You described that it
Joanne Lockwoodhost
seemed to my understanding would resonate with someone who was maybeneurodiverse. That intensity, that hyper focus, thatability to really be single, focused andcreative at the same time. Is that truism or is that me justguessing? I wouldn't say necessarily singularly focused. It's
Susan Drummguest
more. These types are often able to see perspectiveslike more more in tap with their emotion,the emotional life within them. And because they can get in touch with their own,they can get in touch with yours as well. And through that they're ableto influence in a way that others can't around purpose andmeaning. But also they're able to leverage thoseemotions to be able to bring the creativity intowhatever they do. I think those that are most creative are able totap into, they understand their own emotional life in more dep.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Okay, so flipping on the other side then, which is the O positive, which isthe common leadership type? Which is the one that we've got that one first. That'sthe first corner we put in our jigsaw. What's the common type? Well, typically
Susan Drummguest
I would say more CEOs are type threes or type8s. There are two types that I see very common. A type 3 is thecompetitive achiever and type 8 is calledthe powerful challenger or active controller would be anotherway to describe them. And these two types tend to be the leadertypes that want to be in charge andleading the pack. So more often than not, I'm. When I'm working with a CEO,there are. Now that's not always the case by any means. And I lovewhen I get to work with a leader who's in a different format. ButI've worked with more threes and eights than any other type at the CEO'sspot. How do you class Barack Obama then?
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Where would you put him on the. You know, I don't know.
Susan Drummguest
That's interesting. I've never thought to think about what his type is. What'shard is what we're really looking for is whatmotivates you or drive you. Behaviour can vary from person to person.So if. But all we see is behaviour. So it's veryhard when somebody tries to, I guess, call it like armchair type someone elsebecause they don't actually know why they're doing what they're doing. Andthat's what makes it such a rich tool. Because if you think of like aniceberg, above the waterline is behaviour. That's what we can seebelow the waterline. Is what's driving that behaviour, what's themotivation? And that's what this assessment reallylooks at. And because of that, really encouragepeople to. There are some ones out there that do not type peopleaccurately because it's harder. It's a harder thing to assess. You want the onesthat are. You don't want the cheapy or freebie ones online. Like, they donot do you justice because they're probably mistyping. They're horoscopes.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
They're just horoscopes. Yeah, they're just. They're just not accurate. And so
Susan Drummguest
what you really want is the one that is, like, farmore detailed and one that we use in our programmes thatis backed by neuroscience, that has over 1200questions in the database. They're not asking you 1200 questions, but they're usingfractal mathematics to keep checking and rechecking to make sure that they getan accurate typing. So with Barack, I only have. Idon't know him well enough to understand when he's described, motivationto see whether. Otherwise I just look at his behaviour and then I couldmistype. Okay, that's. That's a really fair point. That, as you say,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
it's. It's backed by neuroscience, and neuroscience is sitting in an armchaira thousand miles away having a guess. So that's, that's the validation,you know, we're looking for here. You have to engage in the process and ithas a meaning. Yes, Right.
Susan Drummguest
So, you know, there's a way to.We've got a programme called Enneagram Applied, which will bothassess but also show you how to leverage that, to be able tocreate your own development plan and furtheruse those around you to help understand your blind spot in moredepth and leverage them in. We kind of put it amini 360 model of leveraging those who know youbest to further explore that blind spot.Because I'm also a believer, like an assessment is an assessment. It's more aboutwhat do you do with that information that makes all the difference. And sothat's why we call it applied, because we want you to apply this informationfor your own growth, not just, like, give you a horoscope thing.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Have you got any statistics on percentage improvement or is it.Is it not that measurable? I mean, do you measure when you've got nine piecesof the jigsaw in place versus only three pieces that jigsaw in place? Is therea. Is there a demonstrable, tangible, quantitativeoutcome of this? I mean, if, If I could zero
Susan Drummguest
in, I would have Billions. Yes.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
It'd be very rich. Yes, I know, because I see the improvement in the team.
Susan Drummguest
But they were making lots of different changes. Right. So it's hard to isolate thefactor. It's because of this they start collaborating better and then theycome up with a new idea and then they bring in a new marketing person.So you can't. It's very hard for people to isolate what wasthe actual thing. But I know it creates change. So
Joanne Lockwoodhost
there's a certain element of cultural shift, isn't there? If you're, if you're doing thework, you become invested in the process, you become invested in theoutcome and then you become more, moreaware of each other and different thinking starts and personality traits.Therefore you're more tolerant of their views, you're more invitingof their views into your views. So I guess it becomes a self fulfilling prophecyas well, where you, by being on the programme, doing the work, it becomesoutput, it gets delivered. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Susan Drummguest
It really does. So it's exciting work and I'mgrateful to have been in this field for,like I said, Now, 25 years with my own firm over the last 20.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Wow. Wow. So it's beenfascinating actually. We could probably talk another couple of hours, but, you know, we've gotit, we've got to get on. How can people get ahold of you? Sure.
Susan Drummguest
Well, I want to invite people, if they are curious about theirsuperpower and potential liability that we talked about earlier,to go to susandrum.com and take. I'vegot a simple free quiz there thatwill start to illuminate what might be your superpower andliability. But the fun part comes after becausewhat we'll do is we'll send you based on how yourresponses are the chapter in the book that mostrelates to that. And so you will get theplaylist of the person who might be similar to you and what theyuse, what their old playlist title was, what music and what the new oneis so you can play around and maybe get some ideas. If you want tocreate your own playlist based on what you see mightneed to shift in your own life from that. So we like to tie thosethings together and that's a fun way. So go there. I also have my ownpodcast called the Enlightened Executive where we interview leadersand entrepreneurs about their own journey to enlightenedleadership. And so those are two great ways toget connected. And of course my firm is meritage leadership and there's moreinformation there too. Fabulous, Fabulous. So Drum
Joanne Lockwoodhost
D R U M M - 2m'syes. Yeah. 2Ms I know. Isn't it funny that
Susan Drummguest
I wrote a book about music and my last name isan instance. They say that you align with your name. I can't remember what it's
Joanne Lockwoodhost
called. I don't know how this happens but it does. There's dentist called Dr.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Payne or something and there's a thing.I can't remember what it's called now maybe someone can write in and tell mebut there's a, there's a thing where you become the person by your name.Well known theory, I'm gonna, I'm gonna cheque that out. I wanna find out myplaylist and I wanna do some assessment there. Yeah andactually my free gift back to you is I I I I feed the transcriptthese episodes andgenerate song lyrics of each episode. So it'd be really interesting to see what thesong lyrics come out for this one. And I use an AI music platformcalled suno. I generate you an epso I do different music styles for Bollywood to every rockto rock ballads. So it'd be really interesting to see if any of thoseyou go, ah, that's my playlist, that's my song. Andyeah, so if you're listening to this, I have got an AI playlist ofsongs from the podcast. So yeah, please cheque it out.
Susan Drummguest
I can't wait to hear that. Yeah, well it's been
Joanne Lockwoodhost
absolutely fantastic getting to know you, having a conversation andfor those listening, check out Susan onLinkedIn, on all the other platforms and visit the website. All of the details willbe in the show notes. Thank you so much for having me.Pleasure. As we bring thisconversation to a close. I want to express my deepestgratitude to you, our listener, for lending your earand heart to the cause of inclusion.Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing toInclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing communitydriving real change. Share this journey with friends, family andcolleagues. Lets amplify the voices that matter.Got thoughts, storeys or a vision to share? I'm allears. Reach out tojo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.ukand let's make your voice heard. Until next time, thisis Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return withmore enriching narratives that challenge, inspire andunite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world oneepisode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.
In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood and guest Susan Drumm explore what it takes to make inclusion truly “stick” within organisations. Together, they investigate how blind spots can shape team dynamics and why curiosity, rather than resistance, serves as the real agent for personal and organisational growth. The conversation covers the value of diverse cognitive perspectives, the pitfalls of entrenched viewpoints, and practical tools such as the Enneagram for building trust, equity, and better decision-making in teams. Listeners will gain insights into the subtle ways habits and unspoken patterns influence inclusion, and how music and neuroscience can help leaders rewire unhelpful beliefs and unlock authentic change.
Susan is a renowned leadership advisor and coach, known for helping organisations turn diversity into everyday performance by embedding inclusive habits that foster trust and voice equity. Based in Scottsdale, Arizona, she brings a global perspective, having lived in London and worked with multi-sector teams across healthcare, tech, and financial services. Her gift lies in spotting the invisible patterns running teams and translating complex neuroscience into actionable, repeatable habits. Susan is also the author of The Leader’s Playlist, blending her passion for music with the science of transformation, and she hosts The Enlightened Executive podcast, where she interviews leaders about their journey towards enlightened leadership.
Joanne and Susan discuss the critical role of language in creating inclusive communication, the dangers of confirmation bias—exacerbated by AI—and the necessity of balancing empathy, curiosity, and authenticity. Using practical examples such as music playlists and leadership typologies, they illustrate how leaders can shift both their own and their team’s patterns, even in the face of imposter syndrome, burnout, and generational differences. The episode also examines common pitfalls in leadership teams, from missing creative voices to strengths that can become liabilities if left unchecked.
A key takeaway from this episode is that sustainable inclusion is built on intentional curiosity and active engagement with diverse perspectives. Listeners are encouraged to look beyond surface-level solutions, embracing practical tools to reframe their mindset and make long-lasting change. Tune in for a thought-provoking discussion that will both challenge and inspire anyone interested in creating authentically inclusive workplaces.
The views and opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of Inclusion Bites, SEE Change Happen Ltd or Joanne Lockwood. This episode is shared for general interest and discussion; we accept no responsibility for the accuracy or completeness of any statements made.
