Joanne Lockwoodhost
Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for theInclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing anumber of amazing people. And simply having a conversation around thesubject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world abetter place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future,then please do drop me a line to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.That's S-E-E Change Happen.co.uk. Youbetter catch up with all of the previous shows on Itunes, Spotify,and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, graba decaf, and let's get going. Todayis episode 22 with the title, it's never toolate to be what you might have been. And I have the absolute honorand privilege to be joined by Amy Rowlinson. Amydescribes herself as someone who is on a mission to helppeople become purpose driven and values based.And when I asked Amy to describe her superpower, she said,I listen. Hello, Amy. Welcome to theshow. Hello, Jo. Lovely to be here. I'm hoping not to be
Amy Rowlinsonguest
bitten on your podcast today.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I'm sure with all our social distancing, I don't think myreach is quite that long. Jo, it's an absolute pleasure, I mean we've been talkingabout having you on the show for a few months now, pleased, we finally gottogether and made it happen. So who is Amy?And tell me why you feel it's never too late to bewhat you might have been. What's that mean? Well, I'm a
Amy Rowlinsonguest
strong advocate for being a midlife beginner, havingcreated a number of businesses out of nothing at thesort of tender age of 40 something. And,well, Bites about 40, 42, 43. And in the lastfew years, I have really realized, having gone througha long process of personal development, that it ispossible to do what you want to do and that it is never too lateto be what you might have been and that who you are and what youdo and what you have is all within your control. Andwhat you want to have determines who you become and what you do.So I'm a strong believer of being a midlife beginner andswitching between that of just existing toreally living. Well,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
for for anyone that who's listening that knows me, I'm I'mwith you on that. You know, I at the age of 52, I I Irebooted pretty much my entire life jo I know what it's liketo start again if you like andand I found that sometimes when you start again you do itdifferent, better, faster, and with more passion, don'tyou? Effort, isn't it, of of coming to something new as a in
Amy Rowlinsonguest
your midlife. Because, you you know, you people SEE it from the outside as beingan overnight success. So actually, you've got sort of 40 years orseveral decades behind you. So you can leverage from that experience,and you can sort of transfer all those skills you've been amassingover that time and take it into something where you really have apassion for. And I think focusing on why you're doingwhat you're doing is jo important. And Bites sort of, forme, it enables you to really put some passioninto that sort of life that you and business Andlearn from the experiences that you've had and not worryabout what it is you've got to do or who you've got to impress andjust do things because it's right for you.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. Do you think people get kind of pigeonholed and stuck? You know, SEEif you I remember looking back and I was probably12, 13, I didn't really know what I wanted to do as a career andI played with a bit of electronics, I did a bit of photography, I wasinterested in maths and physics and science but I had no real kind of whatdo I want to do and suddenly I ended up as an electronics engineer becauseI had a slight interest in electronics and Belonging littleradios. But it was never really a career choice but itjust kind of I ended up in it. And then I got into computing againthrough hobbies and I got sort of into my 40s, I think. If Ilook back, I'd much rather have been a photographer. That was reallywhere my passion laid when I was in my teens. But I didn'tappreciate that was a career. So you do kind of get pigeonholed either byyour parents, by your early choices in examsor qualifications And it's hard to get out of that box, isn'tit? I think that growing up, we we had a sort of a a
Amy Rowlinsonguest
limited exposure to opportunities.And now we've got the advent of the internet and you've got all thesocial media. People are much more exposed to so many differentsort of roots in life and where we probably had that careers officerwho said, oh, you could do this particular career or that. And then, as yousaid, you just sort of get put onto that path. And unless you've gota real sort of pursuit for being a doctor or aveterinarian or whatever it was, you you kind of drifted. And that's whereI felt I'd certainly driftedI was, oh, my goodness. You mean I could do other things in life? Well,why didn't no one tell me? I was quite cross, to befair. Do you think there's a a kinda agenda
Joanne Lockwoodhost
difference here where men are kind of set off in thisfuturistic path whereas women are kind of traditionally put on tostop that path. A kind of until you have a family type type careerpath. Yeah. There can be. That's how it used to be. And I went to
Amy Rowlinsonguest
an all girls school. Didn't have a huge exposure to tosort of men until I went to university. And it was only then I wassort of sitting next to people saying, oh, you study too. I didn't realize thatbecause I hadn't Happen in that space. I'd SEE just allwomen. So we were empowered. And we were sort of led to believe that wecould do whatever subjects we want to do. And that wasn't a problem. And thenwhen I went to university and then going into the workplace, that was it wasa really different dynamic for me. And I foundit's interesting because I went into a career again. I sort of fell into it.I didn't particularly plan it. I went into recruitment. And I used tohave temps working for me in London. I had sort of 400 tempsout each SEE working in different roles. Andthey were mostly sort of admin based. So they were actuallyhad a few guys who came to me who were exceptional PAs. And Iremember really having to sell them harder to my companiesat that time. And so there was a difference in in sort ofacceptance in that time. But it wasn't really sort ofa big thing. It was just a case of me saying, look, he's really good.Come on. Let's Bites now you wouldn't have those issues at all.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I mean, it's interesting to say you went to an all girls school and thatinsight you had about you weren't constrained bygendered roles because you were all women, all girls together, sort of thing. Do youthink are you an advocate therefore forseparate education for for young girls and boys, or do you think there's a thatthat's the benefits sometimes outweigh? Whatdo you think? Is that Well, that there are several studies that show the results
Amy Rowlinsonguest
for sort of being in a single sex school for bothgirls and boys. And yet both my kids are at singlesex schools. However, the 6th forms are mixed. And also nowthey're very aware of having the opportunities for peopleto not to specify whether they fit into either of thosecategories, that there are other options. And both schools are very progressive with that,which is fantastic. And something that I have learned isthat my children were brought upvery much from the position that I treatedthem as individuals. And it was something I read very early on. It wasprobably one of the best pieces of parenting advice that I got, which wasdon't treat them equally. Treat them as individuals.Don't think that they need to have equal portions of food. Treat themas what they need and ask them, what is it? How much food do youwant on your plate? Let them SEE themselves and become independent thinkers, becomeindependent in the way that they are. And that was, for me, is probablyone of the best things Wellbeing a parent, receiving that information soearly on. Yeah. I mean, I think you said your
Joanne Lockwoodhost
your children in their sort of mid teens and my my children are now intheir 26 to 30 SEE group. AndI'm I'm I'm Wellbeing thinking, if I could do that again, I'd be so muchmore woke, I'd be so much more, enlightened as aparent, I think. And as a parent,SEE don't we don't really get parenting classes in that way tounderstand how to and what we do SEE kind of push back andgo I don't want to be interfered with, I want to parent my way andI think like it's like many things in life isn't it with with hindsight SEEdo things differently and I'm not I mean, my kids are fantastic. Ijust wish I'd been a different parent, not a better parent or worseparent or or just I'd like to Happen been embrace some of the things youjust mentioned. And, I think yeah. It goes down,
Amy Rowlinsonguest
doesn't it? You you do the best job at the time with the tools thatyou have. And and, you know, I was fortunate enough to have picked up thatparticular book and and found that resource at that time. Andhad I not, I wouldn't be giving myself a hard time oflooking back on it. It's just what you do in that moment.And the making decisions for the schools that the children are, that was thedecisions I made at the time of being the best schools for them, as Ibelieve them to be. Whether they are or not, who knows? Butit's one of those things. You make a Inclusion, and you go with it, andyou take that responsibility. And there are alwaysoptions, always choices. And you're making these choices whatyou are and what you believe at that moment.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Jo, I mean, one of the things we started talking about earlier was around this,the ability to sort of put the brakes on in in your in yourlife and just have have a look around, just smellthe flowers and look out the window and just go, who am I?What do I really want to do in the future? But there's amassive massive breaks you have to put in your life sometimes,isn't it? Because the momentum, your your your commitments,your family, your pressures of earning, a house, allthis stuff around you has momentum, doesn't it? So it's a real there's areal well, real real tough breaks to say, Happen minute. Stop.Think. Now what can I do? And and that's tough for many people. How howdo people go about that? I think stopping just
Amy Rowlinsonguest
to slow down and really look at what's happening aroundis probably one of the best things you can do instead of heading on fullpace into everything. And I think that so often people think they gofrom one thing at 100 miles an hour to the next. And they don't slowdown. And they don't stop and just pause and look around. And that's something Ifound at the beginning of lockdown. Pretty much everyonehad the opportunity to do that. And there have been such adifference in thereafter, the responses of peopleof where they've gone into different directions. And let's use theword pivot because, for the want of a better word, that's what a lot ofhave done. Bites it has been an opportunity for everybodyto press the reset button and think, is this reallywhat I want to do? Is this something that I am passionate about?Is this something that I am actually really interested in? AndSEE, obviously, there are financialresponsibilities that people have. But if you have that opportunityto really pursue something that is of truevalue to yourself and isn't with your values, that's where youstart to find that the real magic really happens.And for me, I had that opportunity years ago whenI realized that I could take the opportunityto support my husband by creating a business that would then allow him toretire. So I spent 3 years building up a propertyportfolio that would replace income.And last October, which is 2019, he actually did step awayfrom his role. And that has been a huge change for usas a family dynamic because he was in a position which was reallyquite stressful, was not great for his mental health, was notgreat for the family dynamic. And yet, we'd been stuck in aposition where we didn't see an alternative for so manyyears. For 20 years plus, that's what we thought the path would be.And then we actually learned some information thatallowed me. And I then went on various courses which gave me thateducation into understanding that there was a different route. There was adifferent way. And this is where I say I became a midlife beginner and thatit was never too late to be what I might have been. And for me,that and family, that has completely changed. We're all together.We've spent the whole of lockdown together. We're at home together. The children now getthe benefit of seeing their father more. And he'staken over that role. And then it's given me the opportunity to pursue what Ilove doing, which is podcasting and coaching.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Fantastic. Yeah. I I mean, you look around to the world. Thereare people who do have these kind of midlife crisisfor whatever you want to call it and some of it is outside of theircontrol, they get made redundant, they have an illness or a life changingaccident or something or something major occurs that causes them topirouette, pivot, u-turn, whatever you wanna call theword. But many people, unless they have that intervention, thatexternal intervention, don't don't stop do they? And that that's it'salmost like empowering yourself to to make that change without it beingenforced on you is where the power should come as men. Time and time
Amy Rowlinsonguest
again, I hear of people who have had these sort of external events, as youcall them, or traumas or or sort of redundancy SEEdeath or or an illness. And it's because of that that they thenrealize that, you know, what they're doing is is not what they want to bedoing. And that's been the trigger, to changetheir lifestyle. What I'm trying to help people to do is that it doesn'thave to be a trauma before you realize that you can change yourdirection and that by taking responsibility and becoming more selfaware of what you of who you are and what you want todo is is empowering. And, you know, youonly get one life. And this is where I feel so many people are justexisting and they're just sort of sleepwalking through their lives.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Carpe Diem Indeed. Certainly. But is it not aprivilege to be able to do that?There are many people who who don't have the stabilityof home, the stability of finance, the stability of relationships,the education or the contacts or the network. So it's quite a privilegeto be able to say, just stop and have a think, isn't it? I think
Amy Rowlinsonguest
I think you're right. There there is an element to that. But I think itdoesn't have to be that you are changing your entirelife. You could just be changing one thing. You could be switching off theTV and, as you say, pursue your passion in photography, forexample. So it's just by taking the time to prioritizethe things in life that you enjoy more. And then you'll start to realizethat there are opportunities there toturn your vocation into a profession. And that'swhere the switch can happen before makingdrastic decisions of just quitting your 9 to 5 todo something else. There is a responsibility there toprobably overlap. And and that's where a lot of people sort of don'tsee that there are opportunities to pursue differentBites without it all having to come tumbling down.You don't have to do it that way. It can be a balance.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So just to add to your sort of like major majoru-turn here, we can talk about Bites evolution. We can say start at me, Ithink the way you just said it was that you started investing in your owneducation, you had like a gold property portfolio, howdo I go about that, let's go on some courses. So it may take youa year to invest in yourself to get to a point where you're ready orif you're gonna do a coaching course, and we all know the coaching courses probablytake a year to 18 months to do the coaching courses, then at the endof that you're ready to start business, you don't have a business at that point,you're ready to start a business jo by taking looking at maybe ayear, 12 months, 18 months plan of this where you investin yourself that way you're not putting the brakes on suddenly you'realready you're planning to come to a gentle stop. Is that probably the wayto do it? Absolutely. I think investing in yourself and in your own
Amy Rowlinsonguest
ability to again, it comes back to personaldevelopment, which for me was just you know, it was just sucha light bulb moment, such an epiphany to sort of realize thatI had all these different opportunities available to me and thatI didn't even know that there was such a thing as limiting beliefs or impostersyndrome or sort of, you know, tochange the way that you've been thinking using anchors in NLP. I mean, there'sjust there's so many different ways that you can sortof shift and move and and grow. And I mean, I'ma massive believer in in lifelong learning. And Isay it all the time. But SEE the Shakespearequote that I absolutely love, which is the fool to think thefool to think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself tobe a fool. And, you know, Bites so important toto realise that there is always more out there that you cangrow and learn. And for me, I'm just going to be a lifelong sort oflearner because there's so much that I don't even knowhow to describe. I don't even know what I don't know at the moment. Soas humans, we do crave for that purpose. And I'm sure, you know,anyone who's read Frankl's Man's Search For Meaning, you knowthat it's bigger. There's so much more there. But oncewe understand why we are doing what we're doing, wehave a life of fulfillment. And that's where, ultimately, I'm not sayingditch your 9 to 5 job. It's just about finding something that is fulfillingin your life. And that can be done through volunteering. It could be you know,it doesn't have to be that you create a new business. And it doesn't haveto be that you leave your 9 to 5 at all. You could align yourselfwithin a business. And this is where I do a lot of work withParkinson's. It's a cause that I'm supporting on the podcast at the momentbecause it's a way of aligningyour passion in life with a. So you canvolunteer for a company. You can work with our company. It's aboutconnection, and it's about belonging and understanding that what you're doingis of value to others.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
But people still get blocked by their imposter syndrome, these limiting beliefs. I mean,you mentioned that yourself. And that's a real brick wall, isn't it? Where people go,I couldn't, I couldn't, I can't. And we said, well, just take a small step.Well, no, we couldn't, I couldn't, Bites I'm too busy. I've I've notgot the skills. I've I don't know anything. I don't know any. As a asa roadblocker, how can we help people overcome these sort of limitingbeliefs and and it's easy for us because we've donethis But it's not so easy for people who are embarking onthis first tiptoe into this world, isn't it? Quite often,
Amy Rowlinsonguest
what people say they can't do, it is it is, as you say, it'sa limiting belief. And it's about finding the connectionbetween what it is they really want to do, find andtwisting that into becoming a priority, but aligningthe the purpose behind it so that they understand that bydoing that, it's going to enable others. So it's connectingemotions with the actions and understanding what the whatthose results are going to be. And quite often, when youserve or help others and you showthe value in that, you're seeing their endresults in helping others. And that is sofulfilling. So again, you hear thisquote all the time from Henry Ford, whether you think you can or whether youthink you can't, you're right. And it really comes down to does itreally mean enough to you to make that Change? Becauseit's with everything. If you want to lose weight, do you really want to loseweight? Because you're going to have to put the effort in. And it's with allthings you have to put the effort in to get results.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
For sure. Again, that comes down to finding your own why. Are youdoing it for yourself, doing it for the society expects,or you're doing because somebody else wants you to? And those other 2, you know,to conform because somebody else wants you to, they're never gonna be sustainable. You'llnever feel that passion. You've got to say to yourself, if you wanna loseweight, I'm not gonna eat that Mars bar, I'm not gonna have that glass ofwine, because I don't want to. As soon as somebody else is putting those rulesin place, you'll go, well, they can't see me, I'll start again tomorrow. So onceyou've learned you're only cheating yourself and you're holding yourself accountable, that's when youcan make Change, isn't it? Absolutely. And I mean, language is
Amy Rowlinsonguest
so important. Our self talk is is critical. And what we'resaying to ourselves on a daily basis is is ahuge impact to how we can move forward.And quite often, I advocate to people that theyjournal and they do like a morning journal. Andit's just to release that sort of self talk before you startthe day. Because quite often, we have so much sort ofnegative self talk that we keep going and we repeat those allthrough the day because we have so many more thoughts. I mean, I can't rememberthe numbers Bites 60,000 thoughts a day, But majority ofthose are are repetitive. And and a lot of them also arenegative. So by journaling first thing in the morning and just getting itout onto paper, you actually give yourselfthe permission to move on. And the self talk feels asthough it's been acknowledged. But then actually Bites gone.It's it becomes less powerful on us. So yeah, it'sit's really not SEE
Joanne Lockwoodhost
that's interesting because, you know, if I was to say think of a pink elephantor don't think of a pink elephant, the first thing you can't stop thinking aboutis a pink elephant. So if you're trying to stop drinking, youalways think about not drinking, therefore you're always thinking about drinking.If you're trying to lose weight you're always thinking about not eating or being carefulwith your food so food, drink, pink elephants become all inyour mind all the time and you can't find room for anything else to takeyour mind off it, can you? And that you wake up thinking about it, yougo to sleep thinking about it, you're beating yourself up for not losing that £2this week, you're focusing on that for the next week and you'reconstantly micro judging yourself on a daily basisrather than taking a bigger goal saying this month, I'm trying tolose £2. We're worried about losing £2 every day and we're weighing ourselves toomuch, aren't we? Is that is that are we over measuring sometimes too much data?
Amy Rowlinsonguest
There could be that. I think it's it's focusing on the on the outcomes andwhat it will allow you to do. So it's a case of Iam losing weight because I am then going to be ableto run to the shops or run not toget more food, but run run with the kids, you know, to have have funor take the dog for a walk. I'm gonna be more, able to dothe things that I love doing, which is and jo it's focusing on on whatit is it will allow us to do as opposed to just focusing on thatmoment. So it's thinking longer term. And as yousay, not just on that short term, eating for fuel, you know, notnot sort of saying, I'm not going to eat this. It's what what are yougoing to eat? I'm going to eat fantastic foods that really fill me withenergy and vitality. And this is this is where, you know,learning and growing and improving justtakes you to that next step. And Bites so important. I thinkoften when we're we're excuse SEE.Often when we are in the moment, we we get, as you say, weget stuck and we don't see the bigger picture. Sotaking ourselves out of the frame, we can then see what it is we'retrying to achieve. So
Joanne Lockwoodhost
where are we now? This is like end of November, 3 or 4 weeks tillChristmas, we've been in lockdown on and off or some shapeof of sort of COVID dominating our lives for the last 8 or 9 monthswith a kind of vaccine being Joanne good in front of us but eventhen they're not promising anything before March, probably even thesummer before anything Happen. So how are you seeing that impacting people? Imean, is it helping people discover themselves more orare people still in survival mode? How do you SEEdo you see people that you're talking to find in this time? So a lot
Amy Rowlinsonguest
of people that I speak to are definitely in the thrive mode because theyunderstand that they can become biggerthan what the restrictions have come on us and that they canactually move into different ways of living. And they're growing, andthey're evolving, and they're adapting. And it goes back to that who moved thecheese scenario. I don't know if you've ever heard of that Doctor. Spencer Johnson talkedabout, you know, the people who expect things to happen tothem, you know, they they become sort of stuck in this world where it'slike, who moved my cheese? Where's it, you know, where's it gone? And they getvery angry about it. And those who sort of move on, evolve, andadapt are the ones that are going to be able to thrive. You know, it'sa difficult situation. And someone I heard is Steve Judge. He saidthat we're all in the same storm, but we're all in different boats. And Ilove that analogy because, yes, we are all experiencing very different things atthe moment. And it's all about how are we going to weather thestorm? What is it we're going to be going through? Because it's not going tochange. You know, external events are going to be always happening. Ifit's not coronavirus, it's going to be something else. So again, it'sabout how are you going to take it to the next level? What is ityou're going to be doing? And, you know, we're never going tobe in the same world that we were living in before. It'sabout taking opportunities and, again, having a purpose,having a plan, and focusing on why you do what you do becauseyou know otherwise you're just going to get stuck in that dailylist of chores you're going to roll in with day in, day in life. Andit's about questioning, really sort of thinking about what it is you want todo, what legacy you're going to leave behind, and and how you're going tothen achieve it. Because then when you start thinking bigger Joanne, youknow, what is it going to be for tea tonight, life becomesmuch more fun. I agree. I love this
Joanne Lockwoodhost
quote. So one of my quotes, this is my own personal quote,is lucky things happen to lucky people. And what do I mean bythat? Is, you know, some people have all the luck. Some people seem to havethese opportunities all the time and other people look at me and go, how doesthat person get all these opportunities? And when I say lucky things happen to luckypeople, is that you do things that make you lucky and thatis saying yes to things rather than jo. Sayingoh, what does that look like? Exploring opportunities. Bites,so being an open mind, a growth mind rather than a closed mind and saying,well, I'm gonna say I can't, you know, who's moved my cheese? I'm gonnaI've got my own cheese, I'm gonna Bites my cheese, actually, I'm gonna shareit with you, have some of my cheese, enjoy it, I'll get some more ifit moves. So so don't don't treat these as obstacles in yourmind. See them as as disruptions, a positiveevent in terms of how can I now adapt to this? SoI whilst I recognize so many people listen to this podcast that have had areally poor experience of COVID, it affects them deeply and Iand with either health wise or financial, etcetera.It gave me an opportunity to say, okay, I had acry, I had a bit of a pity party for a few days and Ithought, okay, I got my mind into the into the mindset thatthis was going to be an 18 month to 2 year thing. ForI've I looked at the early data, looked at some early graphs and thought, we'rekidding ourselves that this is gonna go away quickly. So I said, right,2 years is effectively forever, as far as I'mconcerned. In business, a 2 year plan is a forever plan. And as as weget into 2 years, we can reinvent it. So I decided at that point there,I needed to invest, I needed to look at what I was doing. I neededto put myself in a position where I was doing what people wanted me todo, rather than what I used to do. So my luck,if you like, was my past IT and technical experience,Wellbeing me to set up my own home studio and be interested enough inmy own video, I was always into photography, videography, soediting videos, doing graphics, doing my own sort of stuff was Bites easy to me.I didn't have any overheads, I just I was just me, I had a VA,I just asked my VA to focus on different things, I automated a lot ofwhat I did. So I I I created this kind of lean newmachine and didn't I didn't mourn for what Ilost. I started embracing what I gained. And that wasjust a mindset shift into into seeing the opportunity ofthe future and not hanging on to that if only,Joanne wait. Because I think some people are waiting for theboat to come back in so they can go off and do their own thingagain. But that boat's not coming back. You know, we we gotta live with thisas we are now. SEE, but myluck I made, I did my lucky things. I networked, I do didwhat I worked and I suppose Ipivoted, I pirouretted, I I made a huge change 4 years ago. Tome, this was just a kind of go, SEE we go again, Morechange. Fine. But I can imagine that's a struggle for someone that's that's been throwninto this for the first time. You've got to find that that gotta find it.Your your armband to be able to swim out. And I love that you
Amy Rowlinsonguest
shared that you had a pity party because I also had that sortof moment right at the beginning of lockdown where I had a businesswith another partner. And he decided that he didn'twant to carry on with the business anymore right at the beginning of Lockwood. Hewas thinking how we could just take it all online. And so I had asort of, a few tears. And I was like, well, I've just spent the last18 months building up this business with you. And now it's all over.And I thought, well, actually, you know, put the tears aside for amoment and focus on what you can do. What have you learned? What are youable to take into a new space? And that's where I justsort of let the unconscious work its magic. And I woke up with an ideaon April Fools' Day that actually then became the podcast. Andwithin 29 days, I'd launched it. And, you know, it'sfunny because, as you say, you know,you have all the skills. You are perfectlycapable of all sorts of things. And yet sometimes you don'tsee it. So just taking that time to pause and take it into aspace where you are going to help other people, you're going to be able totake those tools and amplify them. And, you know, there's your sortof sound engineer background, tech engineer coming in andout. Amplify them to take them to a bigger audience. And that's where thepodcasting is fantastic, because people all over the world will hearyour message. And they will then be able to take it on board. And justby listening to it, they can play their own movie of their lifeto it. And they you're literally recording the soundtrack to what they thencan step up and move forward and thentake action. And that's what you have to do. That's that's the sort of keything is taking the action. It's all very well thinking things and and having thesesort of sorrowful moments. But unless you step up and actually putit into physicality, nothing will change.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
That's interesting the way you described your business partner as having thisdeep thought this this wasn't right for him. Andin a way, you have almost have to admire that with hindsight going Wellbeing personsaid stop. I don't wanna keep doing this. This isn't gonna work for me. Soin a way, it's disappointing for you. But in in the same respect, you musthave you must have immensely respected the person to to to stop andand and move in different ways. I'm actually really grateful. In my
Amy Rowlinsonguest
first episode, I thanked him deeply because he sawsomething in me that I hadn't seen. And he knew that it was right forboth of us. And again, I'd been sort of swept up with themomentum and not really sort of questioned things. And jo, no, I'mvery grateful for that decision that he made because it did allow meto then step up into a different space that I am absolutelynothing. So sometimes the disappointing moments andthe decisions that you feel are out of your controlactually do serve you really well.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. I know doing what I do, I I do find it sometimes quitelonely working on your own. Imiss I miss sort of, like, the theteamwork, the collaboration on things sometimes we so then it goesWellbeing you have this joint celebration, the high five ring the bell,yay, did really good today. And if you're having a down day, there's people togive you a hug and jo so having beendoing this for about, what, 3 or 4 years now, I still get those highimmense highs and immense lows. But how I'veovercome that is by having a network, friendsonline, Zoom calls, chats, conversations likethis, Wellbeing, I suppose, beingauthentic and vulnerable with people I speak to is sort of like I'm having abad day, I'm having a good day, sometimes I overshare on social mediaAnd sometimes I, I share my passions or I share mysadnesses. So I think that's quite important that people are going off on their own,they need to find their kind of that their, theirlittle cheerleader on the, that sits on their shoulder every so often and gives thema bit of a rah and someone can give them that hug when they needit. That's kinda, quite a brave thing to do sometimes, isn't it? Justsetting off on your own. Absolutely. And and you're absolutely right in in
Amy Rowlinsonguest
sharing the authenticity online of of not being this sort of 2dimensional person. You are a real person. And you'retalking about all the problems that we all face, that we allhave different problems. We're all in different boats. But bysharing the fact that we're not perfect, that things don't always gowell, you know, that's when people really do warm to you andsort of recognize that you are not trying to sort ofhide behind this sort of mask. We're all hiding behind a maskfor a very different reason at the moment. Butwe do sometimes hide our true selves. And it'sabout showing who we really are online as well asoffline. And, yeah, if we need a hug, reach out for1, albeit a virtual one right now. But if you need it, ask for itbecause people will gladly give it. And Ithink people get sort of stuck in thatrescuerpersecutorsort of victimtriangle sometimes and realize that we're constantly movingaround them. But how do we actually sort of step outside of it? How dowe sort of move into a space where we can be, youknow, in at one with ourselves, but also show thatother people that we are all of these people at all different Bites.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Mhmm. I think for me, it's important to have thissupportive bubble around you. And I, I mean, we're probably a memberof similar Facebook groups or we we probably bump into each other quite a biton LinkedIn. And sometimes I just wanna say,look at what? Look at this testimonial I got or I've done really well thisweek and it's not it's actually not about being self servantserving, it's not about pointing the finger and look at me everybody I'm fantastic Bitesgoing please could someone just go yo Jo, carryon, well done, you're doing fantastic, that's what I want, I'm not afteranyone I'm thinking it's SEE talking to self emotion, it's me just saying,someone please see me, someone please say hello, someone please go well done.Because otherwise, you just don't get to do it. I've yeah, likeyou, I speak at conferences and run training courses all over the worldand you often just get the end of the conference theline goes click zoom window closes and it'slike is that it no one's going to give me a hug or say welldone Jo and sometimes you just need that though, you need that job welldone and unless you give it to yourself, no oneelse is going to do it and I think sometimes we just need to finda a bubble or a circle or a little load of friends who are preparedto just give each other these hugs and go 'yay, well done' Even if it'sjust a little care emoji or the little love emoji and just SEE, girl jo,you've got this. And it just gives you that boost, doesn't it? It's likethat that virtual glass of Prosecco comes your way and you go,I feel better now. Thank you. Well, it's it's with all those moments and, you
Amy Rowlinsonguest
know, even even if you had been at that conference, the moment this asyou walk out the door or you go back to your sort of hotel bedroomand you're on your own again, there is that sort of real moment of itcomes down and the high suddenly just sort of drops.And we love the connection. And that's what, you know, we're alwaysseeking that sense of belonging. We're always seeking the networks to supportus. And, you know, absolutely ask for someone to togive you that recognition that you deserve for that testimonial, that fantasticdelivery of the conference because, you know, why not? Because you would do itfor others. So why not ask sometimes to say, give me a highfive because this is awesome and be proud of what you've done. You know, there'snothing wrong with that. It's it's about where you were andwhere you've become and where you're going as Wellbeing and recognizingand celebrating all those little wins along the journey100% because if you if you just keep on wanting thatbig. Moment, it's never going to come sorecognize all the little steps I'm constantlycelebrating, you know, all the little moments because that's what's reallyimportant in life. The other thing I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
learned was that I was getting these kind of real downdays. And I was having these really, really, really big highs.You know, I'd close a deal. I I get booking. I'd somethingwould happen. It was amazing. And the next day, I'd be really,really kind of, like, down, miserable,despondent. I started looking at it and I started realising that Iwas these massive great highs, these brain chemicals, thesedopamines, endorphins, all these things going the thrill of the chase, thecatch, the cell, the well done, the next day you wake upand those brain chemicals are are not there anymore and you go, I want more,I want more. And that's where the this fit response SEE, oh, I'm notgood enough anymore. Nobody wants me today. It really wasaffecting me. I had these big swings. It's only when I startedreally trying to analyse it, I saw what was Happen. These big highs turninginto big lows. And what I needed to do is step back and recognizethat the world is no different than it was when I went to bed. There'sBites happened is these brain chemicals have gone. And I was as positivethe word is so everything's going as well as it was yesterday, justtoday I haven't had that high. And that's quite a big thing whenyou're on your own or you're embarking where you have all these wins. You've gotto be ready for the crashes as well, haven't you? Totally. And I think that's
Amy Rowlinsonguest
a really important message about sort of around mental health as well isis to have the understanding that, you know, life and yoursupport network is so crucial to to you, to have the peoplearound you, just to have those sort of regular calls with people, just check-in onthem. And one thing I've done with quite a few people over lockdown isjust say, you know, what is it you need that I could helpwith? How could I help you? This is a friend. And this isn't as acoach. This is a friend. You know, because I know a lot of people whoare at home alone. You know, they're not in a family dynamic. I have thebenefit of sort of talking through my day with everybody at the end. And thatthat really makes a massive difference. But when you're on your own and you haven'tgot anyone to say, you know, today wasn't a great day and, you know, Ijust want to have a little chat about Bites, and then for someone else tosort of listen. And you introduced me right at the beginning and said that mysuperpower was listening. And I know that I'm talking today on the podcastwith you here. But quite often on my podcast, I simply listenbecause I'm listening to other people share their stories. And when I'mcoaching, again, it's all about listening. And actually, that's probablysomething that I just would advocate to everybody is justlisten. You don't need to offer solutions. You just be there for someoneand just listen to them. Because quite often, just having that space forsomeone to talk things through and and and talk it out is is as valuableas you can get. I agree, Kavith. That's one
Joanne Lockwoodhost
thing I talk about a lot in my DNI world,the sense of belonging. You you belong when people hear youand they truly hear you. They don't just listen torespond, they actually listen to hear you and acknowledgeyou and validate you and ask you for'okay', and it's not a kind of, you're right, I'm alright, you'reright. This is a real SEE. And one of the things I think we've alllearned from Lockwood, is that those old old superficials how are youdoing conversations used to be like 2 or 3 seconds in the old days whenwe met each other. Now how are you doing is a 20 minute conversationwhere we are more willing to be vulnerable, we are more willing to because,you know, even though we're in the same storm on different boats, we are weare still in the same storm. We can still talk about the lightning, the waves,the the the pressure we're feeling, and we we can all relate in a wayto each other. So I think we've got we have got, like, a shared narrativenow. And no one no one is immune from this. I think that gives usa great bit of solace to be able to say well actually, jo I'm struggling.Now I've got elderly parents or I've we've, a close friendhas tested positive, I've now got to isolate or I'm worried about my children, I'mworried about I've got to go to London tomorrow, I'm worried about getting on thetrain, got all this anxiety about going back into the office now. So weactually haven't there's enough people in our circle that we can share thesethings with, whereas SEE before, we've had more isolated maybe. SoCOVID in a way has also given us a much more bigger shared experience weHappen can share. Yeah. I totally agree. And
Amy Rowlinsonguest
with sharing it and understanding that, you know, it is affectingpeople differently. And I mean, you only have to sort of don't I'mnot a big news watcher. I don't like watching the news because I I findit it very negative. But when you do sort of see the stories and hearthe stories that people are sharing, I do realize that,as you said earlier, that I probably am in a more privilegedposition. But I have spent yearsputting myself into that position. It wasn't always the case.And understanding that we all have theopportunity SEE. We all have different opportunities to do differentthings and show our love to others in differentways. And coming back to that sense of belonging,becoming a member of a particular network hasprobably been the best thing I've done. And I'm in severaldifferent networks because I have different interests, and I havedifferent sort of worlds where they all sort of collide in one way oranother. Bites when I was speaking to you before II amin different worlds, I'm in a property investment world. I'm in aspeaking world. I'm in a coaching world. I love dogs. Jo Ihave, you know, a huge spaniel world around me as well. And Bites Ihave different conversations with different people. And we all havedifferent interests. But again, it all comes back to supporting oneanother. And something that I've been very mindful is theamount of what we hear in terms of negativity in that environmentand how often it can sort of come in and affect yourworld. And so I've been quite conscious of filtering outthe negative elements in my world and focusing on those peoplethat bring value and positivity to my world. And Bites something thatJim Rohn says is that we become the average of the 5 people SEE spendthe most time with in terms of our health, our wealth, ourmindset, SEE way we dress, the way we speak our language,everything. And so I challenge you to think about who are those 5 peoplethat you're spending the most time with and what value do they bring into yourspace. And also
Joanne Lockwoodhost
whether you're comfortable being that average,is is the average you're becoming the average you're meant youyou know, we we talked about who you want to be or or how youwant to be and what you want to be. Is that average? Are youdoing that through positive choice or by osmosis?Are you out of control? And maybe that's where some of us are having topush stop and pause because we suddenly find ourselvesdrifting off course and gravitating towards these 5 people or theor or our echo chamber And really, we need to move away to adifferent group of 5 people Joanne average somewhere else or set our own path andbring people around us. And I think maybe that maybe that's the challenge that we'reuncovering here is that we drift into this thisosmosis with our with our network whereas I think as you said you'veyou've got always multiple intersecting networks of yourwork, your property, your your your dogs, your your coaching whichgives you a different sort of average than maybe people who are justthinking about their work or just thinking about their hobby or just thinking aboutparenthood. And you also have to be mindful that sometimes you
Amy Rowlinsonguest
can get into a network or you have too many peoplein that space. And you can actually serve nobody because you'retrying to juggle too many different relationships. And it's somethingthat Professor Peters mentionsin his book, The Chimp Paradox, is that your troop size actually gets too bigfor you to be able to maintain. And this is something that's really important. It'sabout focusing on some really solid relationships andhelping the people around you in the way that you can really givethem their attention. It comes back to listening again. So yes,absolutely true about who are the people and are they the rightpeople. And as what I said right at the beginning about that sort of stoppingand pausing and you just said it again, and being in controland being self aware and taking that responsibilityfor your life. Because actually, it comes down to you. Nobody else isgoing to do this. You can't expect anyone else to sort of rescue you. It'syou who's able to change the things that SEE happening.Having that shift in mindset that things aren't happening toyou. You are in control. And SEE, lotsof different external events will change the way things happen to you. And thereare lots of things that are going to be difficult in your life. But it'sa case of just having them or seeing them as being onyour way and not in your way. Mhmm. I think
Joanne Lockwoodhost
many of us have been surprised by some things that have gone on in theworld where we had a view of what we thought was gonna Happen,and it didn't. Whether that's Brexit remain, whether that'spolitics in the US, whether it's, Middle East,Israel, wherever that may be, whatever. And I've I've learned that we'renot careful, we think we've got a diverse network Bites we dohomogenize around this echo chamber where people tend to have the sameconversations because naturally, we tend to lean awaywhere someone's saying things we don't want to, we react or wemute them and we spend a lot of our time listening to what wewanna hear. And one thing I like to do is Change people to actually openthe doors and put your ear and listen to what you wouldn't normally listento. You don't necessarily have to engage, you know, you're not gonna necessarily understandor agree Bites just under but just know what other people are saying, whythey're saying it. And if SEE look very simply, if 70 odd1000000 people voted for 1 candidate in the US election and 75,76 people million people voted for the other candidate,Clearly, 70,000,000 people is a lot of opinions that don'tnecessarily agree with you or 76,000,000 people have voted.There's a lot of people who agree with you or whatever, however, however you yourpolitics works. So you can't dismiss either side or eitheropinions being invalid Because clearly, a lot of peoplebelieve that. So I think being engaging in creativedoubt, engaging in in a way where you can understand why people feelthat what what's, what caused them to have that view?What was in it in that message for 1 person that resonated?What was in the message of the other person that didn't resonate? Why do youfeel you need this person to help you in your life? And we can lookat the same with Brexit, remain, whatever side of the fence you want. Some peopleare passionate about 1, some people are passionate about the other. And soboth messages resonated almost equally with people. Soagain, it's it's putting yourself out of your echo chamber to listento the the workings out of the people who disagree with you ina constructive way, having those those those debates, havingthose discussions in a safe space where you feel you can kindof incorporate others people's narratives into your life. Otherwise, you justconstantly live in this act, as you say, the average of the 5 or thethe echo chamber you're in, would ever really understand the rest of theworld. When we think about, you said right at the beginning abouttreating your children with equity rather thanequality, if you like, you know, you give them what they SEE. We also needto understand what other people need and what other people feel and what otherpeople have they're scared of and sometimes they thistheir fear is coming out in the way they vote for the way they alignthemselves. So I think it's very important that yeah, listeningis really key to understanding how people are feeling and whypeople feel the way they do. Totally agree with you. And
Amy Rowlinsonguest
I I love hearing different perspectives. And something thatI talk about is I heard thisdescription. It's absolutely fantastic. And it's about a beach ball. Andthe beach ball, the sort of old fashioned one, which used to have the 6colors. So you've got your orange, white, blue, green, yellow, and red.And if you hold that beach ball and you're facing it, whatyou see is you see 3 colors and the other person across the way seesthe other 3 colors. So you're describing things very differently. But actually,you're talking about the same thing. And sometimes, this is where youmay have similar or sort ofdifferent perspectives. And yet you could actually be talking about the samething. But it's challenging and others to sort ofreally think or really feel or really hear orsee what the other person is thinking about something.And this comes down to communication. It comes down to, as yousay, the difference in opinions. You could actually be talkingabout the same thing or have the same values. But you're coming from itfrom very different perspectives. Yes.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And as I say, there's the equation is SEE plus requals o. You have an event, you have a reaction, leads to anoutcome. But the difference is how you perceive that event, how you react itcauses you to react in Diversity way, therefore, it leads into an outcome. So2 people could have a Diversity view of the same thing. Andtherefore the parts are different, which is why I always talk about showing your workingsout, tell me why you perceive it that way, not justyou perceive it that way, then we can then we can agree that actually wehave the same motive, we've just come to a different conclusion,based on lived experience, our perspective, or something that Idon't know about you or you don't know about SEE. And that that's where it'sit's that's where we need to be curious to know why someone thinks that, notwhat they think. It's fascinating. And, you know, having studied
Amy Rowlinsonguest
NLP and and understand sort of, you know, the different maps thatwe have and how we all sort of have very different worlds thatwe all live in because of our experiences and our beliefs and ourvalues, you know, it really is a fascinating topic to knowthat if you had, you know, 100 people or a 1000000 people evenin one space, they're all seeing and thinking andand hearing different things, even though they're in the same location.And it is fantastic. I find that fascinating, absolutelyincredible. And with that, again,we're all in the same world. But we're all having very differentlives. And that's where it comes back to having thediversity and Inclusion. I just I am fascinated by the livesthat other people are living. This is what you say
Joanne Lockwoodhost
about that. There's a there's a study, wasn't it? If you ask a1,000 or 10,000 people to to guess how many sweets were in a jar,that you average every answerand the average is likely to be the correct answer or the the more peopleyou have contributing, the more likely the average of the answer is gonna be correct.And they did a similar thought of thing where someone got lost at sea SEEthey asked everybody to guess where they thought this person might be based on theevidence. And it turned out the average of where this person was was veryclose to where they were. And, it's fascinating thatyou because because I suppose in the human psyche, we all come up with verywide guesses left, right, too high, too small. But we all kindof homogenise around the kind of the average Joanne. And it'sjo as much as we think we're escaping our programming by by doing this,we actually come to maybe a more succinct view of the worldwhich is a a combination of everybody's opinions is what is where thetruth lies. I guess it comes back to belonging.Yeah. Yeah and connecting because that's what you know. That's what we we
Amy Rowlinsonguest
essentially want to do. We want to have that sense of belonging and yet youknow we also want to stand out. We want to be heard. We want tobe we want to be different. But we also want to connect.So there's there's always a bit of a juxtaposition there.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So So we we started off with the podcast. You know, it's never too lateto be what you might have been. So would you see the difference between thatand who you might have been? Is that a what or who? Yeah. Is thereis there a difference there? I think there's a great difference, a great semantic sort
Amy Rowlinsonguest
of difference there. So if you if you are thinking about who you might havebeen, that's, you know, who you are as a person who who youare and what is it you're and then and then the what is whatis it you're going to do to become that who? So it'sit they're linked heavily. And for me, it's it's again, itcomes back to the sort of the journey that we're on and, who webecome is very much as a result of ouractions and what we do. And it's fascinating. Icould talk about this all day. In terms of what what we're doingon an everyday basis and how how we can makethat impact. And it doesn't matter. You know, it doesn't matter what it is thatwe're doing. It's knowing that it is a value to other people. It'sa value to to those who you're serving andfor SEE, I was I was I felt that I was driftingand that I was volunteering. And I was a mom.And Bites I knew that there was something else that I could do, but Ijust didn't know how. And again, you know, jo it's the who, the what, andthe how. And then it was finally sort of connecting thoseBites. And I realized that I was able to do somany more things. And it was it was it wasa difficult process. It wasn't easy. You know, it was it was awho am I to do this? And then it was like, well, who am Inot to do this process? You know, you're constantly in that battle of, youknow, well, I'd like to produce a podcast. And, well, why would you?Who would listen to you? And then it was like, well, why wouldn't people listento you? The whole sort of again, I talk about the imposter syndrome.And just by sort of showcasingother people, it has enabled people all around theworld to speak out, to change what they're doing,to be inspired and take the action that they've beenwanting to. And this is what's happened as a ripple effect ofme stepping out of that comfort zone into that growth zone.So when you say it's never too late to be who, you might have been,well, if the podcasting was who, the whatwas by being a broadcaster and doing it and creating thisshow that I have has allowed other people to listen tothe stories that people share on that show. And then as aresult, other people Happen then said, well, if they've done it,well, I'm going to do that. I'm going to write that book that I've alwaysbeen saying I was going to do, or I'm going to create myown show and do that. And as a result of that, you know, the rippleeffect keeps on going. And you know, you just never knowwhat you're going to and who you're going to impact bywhat you do. And that's what I love. And, you know, your show, Jo,you may never even hear of the impact that you've made on somebodybecause they may not reach out to you. But those that do, and you know,I hear you told me earlier that lots of people reach out and share whatthey have done by listening to your show and what impact it's and how it'shelped them. Think of all those people that haven't reached out and you'vehelped. For sure. And you're so
Joanne Lockwoodhost
right that we we constantly sort ofjudge ourselves and SEE, what what if people don't like me? Rather than saying,what if people love me? What if people love SEE? And then start withthat. You're talking to the people who want to hear from you, you're talking topeople who do love you. And if people don't wanna listen, that's fine. Don't worryabout them, worry about the people who do. I'd rather have 2 people who loveme and 98 people who don't and then the 2 people arepassionate. I've made a difference As long as as long as oneperson listens and one person cares, that's what we're here for, isn't it? And,I yeah. Don't beat ourselves up about about the 98. Justcelebrate the 2. Yeah. And those 2 will become evangelists and those twoswill become 4, will become 8, will become 16. So focus on what you dowell and not worry about the and not worry about other people'snegative opinions or your own actually most of it is your perceivedopinion of what other people think. You're actually making stuff up about people.You're prejudging things yourself. Yeah. That's Change. Perception and projection,
Amy Rowlinsonguest
dangerous. Absolutely. You know, don't don't think your mind reading. Just, youknow, ask ask people for what it is they're actuallythinking. And just by starting small and andfocusing on small changes in your life and taking thesmall actions each day. I mean, we all know the power of the compoundeffect and how it can make a huge difference. This is whyjust knowing your purpose and having a plan for me isso crucial because, you know, then there's direction. There is thatfocus that you you're talking about. And it's simple. Justfocus on why you're doing what you're doing.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Well, on that note, Amy, thank you so much. I'm sure everyonelistening will agree there's much to ponder and take inspiration from.How could people get in touch with you, if you like it? Well, thank you
Amy Rowlinsonguest
very much. It's been an absolute pleasure being on the podcast today, Jo. SEE,yes, people can keep in contact with me. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm onFacebook. I'm on Instagram. I've got my website.So, yeah, please reach out. I'm sure you'll include all the links in the shownotes. I will do. And tell everyone briefly about your
Joanne Lockwoodhost
podcast. So what is your podcast? The podcast is called Inclusion
Amy Rowlinsonguest
Why. And it's relatable, uplifting, and inspiring conversations withpeople from all walks of life just simply sharing why they do what theydo. So if people wanna listen to more about
Joanne Lockwoodhost
your own message and the people you talk to, then tune into that podcast. I'mgonna subscribe later and have a listen to some of those episodes as well. Sothank you, Amy. https://amyrowlinson.comBites your website. I'll put them in the show notes as well. Connect on Inclusion,say hi. I'm sure Amy would love to hear from you. As would I, ofcourse. So a huge thank you to you, the listener,I'm I'm I'm hoping I'm sure there's more than one of you out there. Thankyou for tuning in. Thank you for listening. Please do subscribe to keepupdated on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast, thatB-I-T-E-S. Please tell your friends, if you have any, and yourcolleagues, if you if you're not working alone at home. I have anumber of exciting guests lined up that I'm sure you'll be inspired by overthe next few weeks or months. Remember also if you'd like to be a guestyourself then please do let me know. As always, I'd welcomeany comments, feedback, suggestions to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.Tell me how you can improve. Tell me what you like. Tell me what youhate. So my name is Joanne Lockwood. It's been an absolute pleasureto host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time.Bye.
