Joanne Lockwoodhost
Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am your host forthe Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing anumber of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the subjectof inclusion, Belonging, and generally making the world abetter place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in thefuture, then please do drop me a linetojo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. Youbetter catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify and theirusual places. So plug in your headphones, grab adecaf and let's get going. Todayis episode 23 with the Bites, BelongingYour Fear and Anxiety. And I have the absolute honour andprivilege to be joined by Mark Wingfield. Markdescribes himself as someone who empowers individuals by giving themhugely practical techniques to handle whatever life may throw atthem. And when I asked Mark to describe his superpower,he said my empathy.So hello, Mark. Welcome to the show. Hello, Jo. Thank you very much
Mark Wingfieldguest
indeed. It's great to be here. So tellme, why do you feel reducing your fear and anxiety is important? What does that
Joanne Lockwoodhost
mean to you? I think it's so universal
Mark Wingfieldguest
that if you don't manage to conquer fears and anxiety, howon earth are you gonna be able to achieve your potential? There are somany things that can hold people backand not allow them to perform to their best. And withall the richness that we have in our society,there are people that I work with who are discriminatedagainst, who are bullied, who are maltreated insome way, or ignored for however they turnup. But it's my privilege to actuallyhelp empower them to deal with whatever they have to go through,acknowledge any fears and anxiety they may have, and give them sometechniques that will allow them to deal withit appropriately, effectively, andreally achieve a 100% of what they're capable ofachieving.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
In the D&I circle, I often hear people talk about bringing their whole selfto work. And what you've just said there is really quite powerful becauseyou say holding back,walking away. But we talk about getting people tobring this their whole self to work. And I often say this, it's veryeasy for you to say, not necessarily SEE easy for me to do,the more typical you are, the less the stress you have in your life, theeasier it is to be yourself, isn't it? But as soon as you've got somethingthat's hidden within you, there's this anxiety that builds andthis fear of being discovered almost, isn't it? Yes.
Mark Wingfieldguest
And I think some of that is you willappear different for whatever reason, whether it's the color of your skin orwhether it's the way you dress or how you sound,how you come across in some other way, whether it's a disability or whateverit might be. And peopleform their own impressions immediately. They and you're aware ofthat. You know, everybody has unconscious bias of some kind, butsome people have overt prejudice discrimination.And dealing with that can be really tough. SoI try and just provide something that will work for an individual, andthat can go from just simply communicationtechniques to staying calm whenyou're terrified or just a little bit nervous. Orif this is based on trauma, Iwork as a trauma therapist to take away theemotional context jo thatpeople can actually function without worrying about how they feelabout it. They just do what they need to do.So Bites it's kind of a a colorfularray of things I've I try and bring to theparty. Does it affect younger people
Joanne Lockwoodhost
more than older people, women more than men,white people less than not white people, straight people less thannot straight people or is it you can't be that clearcut? I I don't think you can be that clear cut. I think that
Mark Wingfieldguest
everybody, whatever shape or form or coloror however they show up, We all have our own fearsand anxieties, so no nobody's without fear andanxiety for whatever reason, but the grades of that and the type of fear andanxiety will obviously differ hugely. AndI think if you talk about young people,it's it's a tough time growing up, isn't it? So it's also a fantastic,exuberant time and a fun time, and you got all your health, hopefully, andyour your full physical abilities, hopefully,or you have my might have some kind of limitations. Butin those formative years, they willdictate so much for the rest of your life. And there are allsorts of different studies that I'm sure you're aware of as many, if not more,as as I that, you know, for example,by the age of 8, you're more or less there.That's kind of you. And it'sit's detail that's gonna be layered on top of that, but your the fundamental whoyou are is kind of by the age of 8. Now there's there's lots ofdifferent studies, and there'll be people that disagree with that comment.But, certainly, all what we do know isthat those formative years are absolutely crucial. And if something happens to you in thoseformative years that's negative, then that can stay withyou and be a real drawback for the rest of your life unlessyou can do something about it.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Do you think that the modern world you know whether that's onlinegaming, social media, the selfieculture, increases the anxieties that people mayhave or introduces new newthreats into people's lives? Yes. I do. And I'm
Mark Wingfieldguest
thinking one very specific response that, I've beenI've been mulling over the a comment that's oftenasked of me. People often ask me, do you think nowadays we'remore aggressive and violent towards people than we used tobe? And I'm not sure that's,well, go back 13 years, 14 years when I first started mybusiness. I used to say, I don't thinkjo, really. I'm not too sure about that. I think it's just a different typeof aggression and violence. Butnow with the age of modern technology andthis instant culture that we have, instant gratification,you know, you pick up your phone and you have the answer togenerally everything in some kind of form, whether it's right or wrong, but you'll geta you'll get a response. You can put it into Google or whatever your preferredsearch engine is and find out something. And because people are so used tothat, further down the roadand they can access, allsorts of games and things that requireaction and response. Wehave instant you know, you go ontothe London tube nowadays, and we have a little card, the Oystercard, and it'll let you through with your payment. Everything goes smoothlylike that. If you go onto the Internet, you can pay immediately for something.Everything is instant or a lot of things are now instant. Andwhen suddenly things aren't at that paceor your expectation that it will be is nowunsatisfied, that's when you get a whole host ofnew issues, that perhapsweren't there before because the speed of things nowadays is so fast.And that permeates into so many different other areas.You know, if you only look at social media, I I work in schools, forexample, work with young children, young adultson bullying. Andwith all the social media that there is now, things like Snapchat where youcan make some comment and it disappears unless somebody's taking ascreen grab of it, That has a whole host ofnew challenges that weren't there before. It's Belonging, but ina slightly Diversity form.Jo when I was first initially talking about bullying in schools, itwas very much face to face techniques, how to deal with bullies.But as time has gone on, people have been asking increasingly about cyberbullying tacticsand how you can prevent and protect from aa technology point of view. You still need the face to face stuff,but it's it's been I I've noticed it over theyears that Bites certainly moved more into atechnological side of things. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I remember at school, I I would I would definitely say I was excessivelybullied, but I I did experiencesome minor where you shoulder barge into youoccasionally or the in crowdwould exclude you or make you feel uncomfortable,more passive intimidation if that makes sense or kind of the lockwoodlooks and the potential threat of something happening rather than the actual.There was always the kind of that that kind of implicationthat something might happen which is psychological rather than physical which isI've never I've not Belonging trauma of it but I supposeI've become kind of hyper aware of bullying sinceI transitioned myself because I'm hyper aware that Ipolarize the views of certain people and there are people inthis country and around the world that have a kind of ananti or a gender critical view of the world wheretrans people are seen as being a threat to that view.And I have suffered in some waysstalking and and sort of cybercommenting on posts on LinkedIn, Instagram, I've been thetarget of comments on newspaperchat comments on the newspaper sites because I appeared in the Sunday Times and theDaily Mail and the Mirror, I think about that a few years ago and someof the comments beneath that. I also took Bites a documentary online, to a channelfor documentary. Mhmm. And to see the some of the comments on the Facebookpost about that and people wading in. And I justalso just started an article, a monthly column with the, the ScottishHerald. Mhmm. And last month, I last one I did wasabout language, I talked about gendered language and all various other things and this seemsto have rattled the cage of somebody who's gender critical and suddenlyit's I I end up with all this trolling, they stalked me onInclusion, they and a whole load of people found me on Linkedin, a whole loadof people found me on Twitter, taking the article completely outof context and putting their own their own thread on this whichis kind of hijacking and it wasn't directly targeted at me but I suddenly realizedthat I was now vulnerable again and raised my headabove the parapet where people were gonna, you know, I now became a target orsomething jo yeah, it's very interesting and I'm now thinking that next article I'mwriting in December and almost in theback of my mind, I'm worried again about what the thebacklash may be was but the first three I wrote I had I hadJoanne of that thought was in my head, I was writing for my own livedexperience Bites now I'm thinking I've got to double think what I'm saying andthat- this is the problem, isn't it? I'm now in this zone where I'vegot to worry about it. Oh, well, I I could help you with that.
Mark Wingfieldguest
No. I'm terribly sorry, Ken. Because, Imean, when when you first started talking about schools and that'ssomething I I hear about a lot, but also have experiencedmyself because, unfortunately, I wasn'tbadly bullied any more than other people at school.But I think it it happens to probably most people at somepoint in some shape or form, and I was no exception.And I can remember the jostling and the exclusion andthe, I mean, I I even talk about something whenwhen I speak about bullying. I talk about, jungletreatment, which is, people circlingme, wanting to knock me down, and feed grass in my mouth. That'sthe shortened version. And I didn't let it happen. I'd seen ithappen to other people, and I I SEE techniques very crudely,that came instinctively, but stopped people doinganything. And, so it's this a more refined technique that Italk to people about. But when you're talking abouttransitioning and and talking about that, andyou talk about various newspapers and, how you're concernedabout what's gonna happennext and how it's gonna affect you, I think you're doing absolutely theright thing because these things need to be talked about and addressed. But froma personal perspective, something I do as a a strongertherapist could help you take away thatthat emotional, concern and andenable you to write without thinking too much aboutthe the emotion. You still need to think about theconsequences and that that will still be there. But if you can take out theemotion element, you're probably right at a better pace, I would suggest.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. I think I'm more likely to just proofread it a second time ratherthan with just the extra lens on it. I'ma pretty resilient person and this hasn't I haven't internalized this butit just woke me up to the fact that there areI'm not as safe as I was, if you like, or I'm more likely tobe. But then if we look at the press, whatever I wrote about,someone's got to make a comment about it that's that's what people do they trollthese these press sites and they they become keyboard warriors, theyhide behind anonymity of Twitter and things jo I thinkit just reminded me that this went on because I often live a very privilegedlife of not caring or not thinking and it just it was just kind oflike a knock on the door going, don't forget about me sort of thing. Ithought, oh, yeah. You're still there. Okay. Yep. Mhmm. Now you'rethere. And and it's worth thinking also that there will be a lot of people
Mark Wingfieldguest
out there who you're you're a resilient person. I'm a pretty resilientperson, But there are other people out there who might be in a similar situationas us who aren't as resilient. And, I won't I won'tmention the details, but something happened recently, thatI I was appalled at. Somebody was,not encouraged. Let's just put it like that. Was not encouragedin an environment which is supposed to be extremely encouraging.And, I I privatelymessaged the person that had been affected and, andsupported them, overtly on on this,this it happened to be a Facebook chat.And I was just appalled they'd been treated in that way. Andthis individual is, again, quite resilient, but was quite upsetby the comments that Happen been made, which were unthinkingand, and not appropriate to the environment that they were madein. So it's it can happen in all sorts of different environments,and, it's worth thinking that there are people thatwill react differently to you. And
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Listen, I talk about in the workplace type environment when we talk aboutthis banter and this humor that sometimes we have in the workplacewhere one person thinks it's kind of jovial andfunny whereas actually the impact of that on others isdemeaning, it reinforces stereotypes, or insome cases, it's just another microaggression that's causing them to feel less worthyabout themselves, isn't it? And Panther is but youalways get the pushback but it's only a bit of fun, it's only we're tryingto make the workplace too sanitised and too SEE ispeople push back, don't they, on this banter? So how do you address that?Yeah. I I think a lot of the time,
Mark Wingfieldguest
people don't intend to to hurt or insult.They think they're being funny. They think they're being sociable. That'sthat's being positive about it. And you can talk to those people. And and ifthey find out that they are inadvertently causing distressor upsetting somebody, then they'll be mortified and and probablyapologize and and stop doing it. And maybe be over careful.That might be the unintended consequence, nexttime. But there are those people that will be doing it onpurpose, and that's why we have the Equality Act. And that's whywe havemechanisms in place forprotected elements within the Equality Act to make sure that people,do get some kind of, redress ifthey need to. But I Ithink there there are extreme examples. I remember going to a seminar yearsago, and it was all about employment law. And, they weretalking about employee handbooks, and it's a good idea to have all your discriminationpolicies and all the rest of it in an employee handbook, of course. And anexample is given about, a businessowner who hated swearing for things.He was very religious person and and didn't like any swearing whatsoever.And, he'd been taken to industrial tribunal for sackingsomebody who'd sworn at work. So his advisertold him, right. Okay. You need to put every single word that you find offensivein your employee handbook and say if you say these words on-site, youwill be dismissed. That's what SEE did. Sothat's taking it to an extreme.I think that, you know, people do,try and have banter, But it's it's a fine linebetween upsetting somebody. And if youare on the receiving end of it and you are upset, you need totell somebody about Bites, and don't keep it to yourself. Otherwise, it's either Joannecontinue because they don't intend to and you've not said anything, or it's gonnacontinue because they find that, yeah, you're hurt, and I'm gonnamake make sure you keep on being hurt, and I'm gonna enjoy it.But once you've actually stood up and said, I don't findwhat you said amusing, whenyou say that sort of thing, I feel uncomfortable. And what I'mgonna ask you to do is tonot speak to me like that because those particular words are veryderogatory. So please, next time, don't use thosewords or something along those lines. But that's easiersaid than done. First of all, you got the the personalpotential pain or or emotional distress from those wordsor what's happened or the environment they happened in. Bites,secondly, you've gotta learn how to do it thinking, usingall your great emotional intelligence and expertise when you'rereally upset and your amygdala's doing overtime, which is theemotional center of the brain, and you can't get the words out because your cognitivefunction isn't working very well. So that's what I help people with. I helpthem calm down so they can think these things through, have an approachthat's gonna work that is neutral hopefullyrather than aggressive, assertivecertainly, but just pointing out open honest communication.When you said this, I felt like that. So what I'm gonna ask you todo, please, is do this. And, you know, just have a justa a structure to to responding thatis is gonna work. And if they say, well, you can f off, you know,then you know where you need to go. You might need to complain, find outwhat the internal workings are of an employer. A good employerwill will have that very clear in whether it's a handbook or any any otherguidance. And they will have accessto either talk to a manager or to somebody in personnel,HR, whatever whatever it's called, and theycan get some redress hopefully before they have to go to a tribunalof some kind or take legal action.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Since what you're saying about swearing then, I was on ataking part in a webinar or was more of aninteractive online meeting. And one ofthe people who was attending at the meeting, they had avery kind of aggressive posture, they were reallyleaning into the camera. They were almost like almost likein in the in the frame. Eating the microphone almost.
Mark Wingfieldguest
Well, almost eating the screen rather than the microphone, it was kinda they were really,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
really into this frame. And they were using swear words like punctuation.I I found their whole presence in this,this event completely distracting. I found theirtheir stance, their language Joanne the way they were talking almost like a bullyingtype stance, I'm Bites almost like posturing and aggressivenessand at the end, there's a kind of a, like, a a a an opportunityfor everybody attending sort of give a bit of group feedback and say what theythought. And I and I I just I just lookeddead in the camera and said I found this this most of this meetingcompletely offensive. The language by used by one of the people was,you know, using swear words as punctuation, their stance, and their their theiraggression is not the kind of event I want to be part ofand I made it quite clear and kindof everybody in the room got I could see everyone else's eyes looking at meand so I just kept my a smile Belonging directly at thecamera, I just kept my stance and just I just part myself with a veryrelaxed with a relaxed faceas if to stand up to that bullying behavior, I wasn't gonna walk away fromit and a few people after me said well I'mglad someone said something because I found that againthat they were finding that being being in their environment uncomfortable with this personBites then but the thethe I was gonna come on to it, you know, what you were saying wasit's all very well standing up in that instancebut then you've gotta think about whether, a, you're gonna get backed bysomebody and supported in that claim, whether there's any gonna be anyfollow-up victimization, and often people walk away. Theythey often people who are targets or or of ofbullying or intimidation are the people that don't know how to standup for these opportunities. I appreciate it's exactly where you come in Bites there's somuch fear of recrimination, fear of of the bullying getting worse, isn't it? And thatthis is this is I guess what you do, so what can people do inthat situation? Standing up sometimes running away isoften the easiest answer, isn't it? Yeah. That I mean, I
Mark Wingfieldguest
I help people across a range of sort of conflict situations,and, you youcan choose whether you deal with something there and then.And sometimes it's not appropriate to deal with it there and then because you're you'reon the back foot. You haven't got all the information you need need perhaps.You're somehow triggered and not thinking straight. You mightbe very emotional, and that isn't the best time to give heryour best. So picking and choosingyour time is really important and place as well becauseI've I've had instances where things havebeen said and done, and you need to nip thatin the bud. But you don't nip it in the bud in front ofother people because they may be your allies or otherwiseBelonging on their loyalties or how they interpret or perceive the situation. They're notyou. They haven't SEE it the same way as you have and don't haveyour background experience. That might mean that something isparticularly cutting or hurtfulor embarrassing or whatever it might be.So maybe having a chat by the thewater cooler, the the coffee machine, by the kettle,the 2 of you is the absolutely the best thing todo. But maybe once you've calmed down or walked outinto the art of years ago when I went to a particular employer,my boss's boss was really, really winding me up. Iactually got up and walked out of the office,not in a rage or anything. I just got up. They didn't know I wasdoing this at all. I just got up, walked out, and walked around the yardoutside, which had, like, lots of bits of metal lying in the yard.And Bites wintertime, and I was frozen, and it just calmed me downand brought back brought me back to reality and how I was gonna deal withit just so I didn't say say or do the wrong thing becauseI have done it, done that in the past. You know, another manager, another jo.He put me under a lot of pressure, andI just blew up. And it was an open plan office, and it wasn't pretty.So we can really do ourselves a disservice. Andbeing able to be calm in the moment, be able to think, okay. I needto do something different. Pick my pickmy time and place and workout what my approach is. You know, work out what's the culture of this organizationI'm in. How do they provide support? Do I needto go and talk to somebody in the union? Do I need to go andtalk to a colleague? Just let letblow to a friend of mine who will listen. Youknow, what what's the strategy? Is this a one off? Is itrepetitive? Is it part of a pattern of behavior that's beingobserved across the culture of the company? What's thebest way of approaching this? Because if you if you blow up like I've blownup in the past, it won't do you any favors. Or if youjust walk away as you've described, Jo, that's not gonna deal with theissue. It may well come back to haunt you. Other people may be subjectedto it, and the perpetrator, if that's the rightword, will begetting off scot free. And, you know, there there's nobodylimiting their behavior, however distasteful and,nasty it might be. So it it's a real judgment thing,and and it's not it's not an easy answer. It's not a quick fix.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
You can Reality is it's quite it is disturbinglyprevalent in most in a lot of workplaces where we talk about racism orsexism, it may not be seen as you know playgroundbullying Bites there's a lot of discrimination, whichis also bullying. Yeah. Discrimination is bullying. Victimization is bullying.This still goes on in the workplace, aroundwomen being denied opportunities, being treated ina more demeaning way, the language used,reinforcing limiting beliefs, denial of opportunityfor women, for black people, for many minoritiesand it's really difficult in the workplace to stand up because the culture ina lot of organisations is such that the person inpower is kind of believed by default, Bites kind of well they're a goodfellow, they're a good person, they're they've got a high performing team and ofcourse they're gonna react this way and you know SEE hear,you know, we've got the home secretary setting a poorexample of what is SEE to beacceptable workplace behavior, haven't SEE? And, Bites I don'tthink she is unique in that style ofleadership and that's the sad thing in offices, isn't it? There's a lot of languageof the workplace bully exists and that's how dopeople overcome that when they feel the dice and the cards are stackedagainst them? You know, sometimes leaders in organizations have
Mark Wingfieldguest
have to betold that the culture that they think they're leading is not actually theculture that's being Diversity. Because some people who areabsolutely have the right the right instinct and the right approach,nondiscriminatory approach, and allow everybody to flourish to the best of theirability, they may be ignorant to what's goingon a few levels down. But if theyare aware, then there is legislation inplace to say, yeah, actually, no. This isn't right. And,again, a different business I've worked for before was extremely autocratic.And wouldn't say it's particularly discriminate discriminatory,but it was very you either do it like this or you're out.You know, we'll give you loads of opportunity to to do well, but if youfell up, you're out. It was very,very cut and dried. And, I eventually leftthat organization because it it just didn't suitSEE. And, you know, I didn't think I was beinggiven the opportunities that I was capable of achieving either. So it's a 2 2pronged thing. I could just about put up with a culture because there were goodthings about it as well, to be fair.But I wasn't getting on as I wanted to. And I think,people sometimes know and sometimes they're ignorant of what's going on in their own workplace.How many how many senior peoplebother to go down on the shop floor to find out what's actually happeningand how people communicate, and are they the best example of that? I Isee this all the time when I when I talk to,organizations who have frontline staff who are being abused, threatenedwith aggression and violence potentially.And their leaders have no idea what'sgoing on. Or if they do, they just ignore itand think, well, that's what they paid for. That that, you know, thatcomes with the jo. That's not acceptable.And the duty of care that organizations have to protect their staff,they they should be doing the right thing. They should be going down. They inmy opinion, leaders should always be mixing withevery level of staff in the organization.And a job of a leader is to lead. And how can you lead ifyou're in your ivory tower? You can do a certain amount anddictate, but that's not my preferred way of ofleading. You know, you gotta involve people. You gotta leadpeople through, actually physically lead them through and show them how things should bedone. I I remember one,train company recentlythat, I no. I've gotta be careful what I've what I say nowbecause I've worked with you. So there's one train company Iknow where there was a bit of a commotion at a platform, andhe asked all of his staff to go down there, but he didn't go.Asked everybody else to go, but he didn't. And Ithought that was really telling. And,yeah, I didn't see that as good leadership at all. There wasn't agood reason why you didn't about a train company. I was,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I was on the the train for Waterlooheading towards Portsmouth. It's probably about a year ago. I mean, back in the dayswhen we used to be able to travel, you know, there's there'swonderful days where where train travel was was kind of everyday thing,Bites retreat again. So I was on thistrain out of Waterloo and southwestern trains or whateverthey're called these days, it's about 7 o'clock in theevening and I I normally sit right at the back because I get off ofPetersfield jo it's best place to get off is right at the back of theJoanne, so get straight on the train Change walk loop. Mhmm. And that's wherenormally the buffet trolley sets off from, so they park it up in the little,the the whatever you call this sort of gapin that, you know, where the where the doors are. So there's a little thecorridor area there by the doors, the festival, I think it's called. Festival.Happen. And, so the the it was a lady whowas who was man was manning the trolley that day, and she was kind ofparked up ready ready for the train to set off. I think they set offonce the train's moving, people SEE down. Andthen this this this this crowd of office people got onwho'd and I suspect they'd already spent the afternoon in the pub,they were all kind of happy and jolly and livelyand they kind of clocked the buffet trolley and decided they wanted to carry ondrinking there and then jo rather than waituntil the trolley is set off and started serving, they're going, oh, come on, cutyour service now, cut your service now, and everyone was coming under a bit bitof pressure and eventually they all sat down and one of the protagonists, theleader of this little group stood up in his very,very posh suit and Bites very slurrysort of, jo I was like, oh, come on love, you know, you know, youwant a service, we'll be good, we'll behave, you know, just want a couple ofglasses of wine and suddenly they put their arm aroundher and they were hanging on her, calling her love andcome on love, you wanna help us like this? And I was sort of satthere thinking this is completely inappropriate, this is completely notacceptable. And I sat there and I pondered, everybody else was ignoringthis and I eventually took a photograph of what was going on and startedfilming a bit of it. And I was getting more and moreupset with myself for not saying something. I was almost I was getting tothe point where I thought I should Happen stepped in. I should be saying something.This is not acceptable behavior. Andif it eventually it stopped and she she passed off the other train, I lookedat everybody around me in the car in the carriage saying, did you see that?Did you find that appropriate? And everyone immediately put their newspaper up or their iPadon their phone Lockwood away from me and went, we're not getting involved. I thought,it's incredible. Jo I thought, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonnareport this to British Transport Police. SEE the numbers flashedup on the overhead board. Yeah. The text number. 6610116.Yeah. So texted that. SEE I've just witnessed a piece of,as assault on a member of staff because it wasn't assault on a member ofstaff, she didn't invite. It was physical, itwas touching and hugging, and I thought that was assault unwanted. SoI reported it, I got a message back saying please email the photographs and andthe time and any photo anything you got jo I emailed it allHappen. And, when the guard camedown collecting tickets, I I reported to the guard and said,yeah, I just just to let you know, I've reported to transport police that thatthat gentleman over there assaulted your member of staff and I found the behaviorinappropriate. And then thisthis this chap was gonna get off the stationat at Guilford. Mhmm. I thought, okay. So there wasno chance to transport the police to come on in advance. SEE I thought, well,I was just gonna stand up and to say something to this person. I saidso I tried to shake his hand Yeah. And I I grabbed his hand andshook his hand and as I did, I was I was passively hoping thatI would distract him in his drunken state from getting off.So I wanted I almost like I almost wanted to hold his hand on thatstage. -You're not a dangerous beast, don't you? So your business stop, yeah.And I said I saw what you did, I've reported what you did to transportpolice and just to let you know I thought I found your behavior completelyunacceptable and he was like what's going on? He said well I'vegot to go' I said do not feel any remorse' he said 'I didn't doany they set him off. So and then I got I got a callback fromtransport police the next day. I appreciate I'm rebelling on a bit Bites about this,but transport police decided not to take it any further or Southwest Trainers decided notto take it any further because the person involved,the woman who's decided it wasn't that much of a problem jothey had no evidence, you know, they had other evidence it's likethat how sad is that that someone has to feel that that's part of theirjo? That that's can be that that they have to put up with that everyday or or occasions? And how incumbent is onan employer for duty of care to notregardless of whether the employee felt they've been abused, they had CCTV from the train,they have my photographs, there's clear evidence that they should have stood up and said,actually, that's not behavior SEE want passengers to exhibit to ourstaff. Regardless where the staff thought it was okayand I felt I just thought to myself:South Wales Trains or whoever the train company was at the timeare not an organization I'm really I don't think their ethics aregreat here if they're not prepared to stand up and say something at that pointand that was quite disappointing but the sad thingin the relation we're talking about here is the lady who was operating the buffingtrolley clearly thought this is an everyday occurrence. It happensand she's almost been socialized to believe it's okay. That's the sad thingabout it in that story. That that Bites very different with I've worked
Mark Wingfieldguest
with, 3 train 3 train operating companies so far,and they take a very, very different approach to the one that youyou've experienced. And thevery first one I I worked on, strangely enough, there's areal strong link to what you just said. Iwas brought in because a lady had been sexually assaultedserving food and drink. And, poorlady was traumatized as you might expect, and,she wasn't gonna go back to work even though she left a job. And, anyway,the good news story is that she was back at work shortly after I Ihelped her with the the trauma therapy. And then we workedwith all of the staff, all of the onboard catering staffto make sure that that sort of thing never happened again. And what wedid was we trained every singlestaff member in assertiveness and techniques. Butthey called it a zero tolerance program, the company. And itwasn't just our training. We were just part of it. What they also did wasthey put up signs and posters everywhere saying it is not acceptableto do this x, y, and zed to our staff members.They should be treated with respect. They had little adverts of,children dressed up in their their parents' clothing, say,please, you know, be nice to my mommy and daddy or, you know, that sortof thing. And, theteam were I mean, they were very focused on customer service,but not customer service at any cost like you you might have experienced onthat that day when they wanted more more and more drink. So when we trainthem, it's all about saying and being ableto say things like, I can't SEE you anymore. I can't serve you. I'm notjo sorry. And moving on. Or if they had thehand put around them, would you please take your arm off me? Would youplease stop doing that, SEE, madam? What you know, whateverthe situation was. And then how to ramp that up if they got a negativeresponse or an abusive response, to the point where wealso trained them in, self defense as well. Soit was, it was a fantastic program. We've let's say we've done that on SEE3 different train operator companies, very successfully. Andwhat's really gratifying about that is that people have theconfidence to turn around and say, please don't dothat, and to deal with I mean, this one was food and drink on thetrain. But what do you do when somebody's threatened to stop their cigarette out onyou? Because you've been they've been told not to smoke,that drugs involved, football, gangs,all sorts of Not wearing a mask. Not wearing a mask. Not wearing a
Joanne Lockwoodhost
mask. Yeah. Smoking, but, actually, it's a,
Mark Wingfieldguest
what's the word? Vape. Vaping. Thank you. Vape? Yeah. Vape yeah. Vaping is not allowedon on trains, which a lot of people don't understandwhy. So it's being able to convey whythat's not such a good idea anddoing it calmly without getting aggressive, without beingtoo passive. Just finding that right balance of coming acrossas professional, customer focused, butstill author authoritative and and assertive.And it's it's a it's an interesting mix. And and for some, that's reallydifficult. But we, we do experientialtraining to to get them in a place where they can do it, and they'recoached all the way through it. And they leave, of course,of metaphor, a 10 feet tall with with the confidence, and that's half thebattle of being able to do it. We we could go back to our earlierconversation about, you know, people not being able to do it. Oncethey've actually experienced it and I mentioned to you, I might put my darkglasses on. That's what we that's what we do. We frightenpeople deliberately on a course. So I'm nowfor the sake of anybody listening to this, I'm putting my dark glasses on.What you looking at?And because the eyes are hidden,because they betray so much of how we're feeling, and you suddenlyget that taken away. And the rest of the body acts very aggressively.We we have somebody coming towards you who we call the intimidator. You have acoach standing by your side. And if you react badly,either aggressively or too passively, the coach will immediately step in andmodify your behavior with your support.If you do really well, the coach just says, fantastic, Jo. Keep on going. That'sbrilliant. And they just whisper in your ear. So it's actuallyhappening and anchoring that experience, and we make sure it's a successfulexperience jo that if that ever happens in real life,you switch immediately back to what worked well for youbeforehand. We've imprinted it in the amygdala, the emotional center of the brain,which is where you go into your when you when you have your fight orflight experience. So it that's why I love doing that. It'sit just helps people deal with really nasty stuffand, or mildly disturbing stuff. It doesn't have tobe as as high octane as that. But we we SEEwe we do the worst so you can cope with anything, really. And we'rehorrible. We're horrible when we put glasses on. We say theworst stuff. We really do. Sometimes on a train or something like that,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
sometimes it's just about making a very loud noise or saying or saying at thetop of your voice, that isn't acceptable. And that creates thiskind of everyone now sees what's going on and the person who is perpetratingBites hopefully will realize that they're now being viewedand they haven't got they haven't got control of the situation anymore. Yeah. Particularly on
Mark Wingfieldguest
a on a train carriage where you're perhaps moving along at whatever speed you're movingBelonging, you can't escape. So you you've gotta really work aroundthe furniture in in the environment that you're in and using otherpeople to your benefit. You know, get people on-site.And and doing just what you just said, you know, being very clear. That isnot acceptable, sir, madam. You're gonna have to stop doing that.I'll have to report you to the police. What whatever the words are that areappropriate. And sometimes the best thing actually is towalk away. You know, when somebody I mean, if if you come across somebody who'spsychotic, who just doesn't care, if you come across somebody who'swaving a needle at you, then you you don't confront them, andyou you get you get to the other end of the train and you lockyourself in with the driver if you can. You know, if they if they gota vendetta against your uniform because you're the figure of authoritythat's come to challenge them, then get out of there.And, you know, in in the last resort, if you can't go anywhere,that's when the physical self defense comes in. But you you shouldn't shouldn't dothat unless you really, really have to. So ityeah it makes for very interesting trainingsessions. Yeah I can imagine. So you said far at
Joanne Lockwoodhost
the beginning about sort of the age of 8 is kind of like aformative type age where if you've been used to,being abused or being treated badly, you'realready kind of fitting more meek and mild andyou become a habitual receiver ofbullying or violence. Presumablythe opposite also applies to you, you'reused to being treated in a bullying way but you would also maybe takeon the role of a bully as well? Is that does that is that causeand effect? You know? If you see, you do. If you experience, it becomesyou or or It can be. I I don't think it it
Mark Wingfieldguest
necessarily has to be.Everybody's situation is different, and it certainly can bethat. And, you know, that that's what used to be trotted out all thetime as, you know, bullies are are people who feelinadequate, and they want to get power over other people. I think it's more complexthan that. I think that, you know, if you've hada some nasty physical violence against you inthe home or sexual violence or something like that,you you might just think that's the norm, and that's how youtreat people. You know? It's it's ingrained. It's Biteslearned behavior rather than,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
you know So that's how dad treated mom or mom treated dad.That's how I will treat my wife or my husband or something. Yeah. It's it'skind of that's how marriages work or that's how parents treat the children.
Mark Wingfieldguest
Yeah. And and the same goes for, you know, the discriminationof all kinds, you know, whether it's, color of skin or religionor how people present themselves or, you know,gender issues or or whatever it happens to be.You know, it if you if you're a little top growing up and you seeyour your mom or dad doing it, well, that's that's how you behave, and that'sthat's what you learn, unless that gets corrected somehow.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. I I fascinate to hear more about your role play stuff. That soundsreally really powerful. I mean, I I love experientiallearning, and I I think real active scenarios where youput people in those zones where they actually feel because I think most learning forme occurs when there's a feeling of you stimulate morethan just the logic, you stimulate that Happen SEE. SoI guess that's how you're training which you really are creating thisfeeling, feel the need type stuff, aren't you? Well, it's really
Mark Wingfieldguest
tapping into where you go when you're frightened because we SEE deliberately frighten peoplein controlled circumstances. We tell people we're gonna do that as well, by the way,so they they know it. And we we get them to sign a piece ofpaper because we say we're gonna say really horrible stuff to you with yourpermission. If there's something you don't want us to say, then please tellus. Otherwise, we we could let anything out of our mouths.And we say that, but also add to it. But pleasedon't don't tell us if you can becausewe're gonna use stuff that could really be used against you in real life.And if you block that off, it's not reality.So whilst, some people will think, well, you can't say that sort ofthing. Actually, we're doing it for the best of intentions. And I'll give you anexample again with Bites with a train operation Happen. Actually, I I rememberdistinctly that SEE, wewere doing a a training session, probably about,14, 15, 16 people, SEE like that. Andabout a quarter of the people that were in the room were black.And we did a an intimidatingscenario where, we had a black lady,and I was the intimidator. So I was swearing at her. ISEE racist language, and I didthis to provoke the the fear and the the anxietythat that we need for this to work and for them to benefit the mostand learn how to deal with that. And she dealt with me really, really well.She was very professional. She was excellent. Coach helped her a little bit,but she did fantastically well. And so Iwhen we're not doing the the physical side of things, I I retreat. That'sthat's how she knows it's working because I I go back because I it's notworking. And she's very certain. She dealt with it very well.And as soon as she walked off, she went, I'mso glad I did this today. But in the audiencewas a white ladywho it was all about her and herimportance on the day. And she complained, I don't seewhy you have to use racist behavior. I said, well, I don't likeracism any more than you do. But we're we're doing thisbecause we're trying to be realisticand help anyone on this course preparemost effectively to deal with nasty stuff that might happen. That'swhat this course is all about. It's about dealing with aggression and violence. Soif you limit what we're gonna SEE, and that lady didn't limit us by theway. She allowed us to to deal with it, and and she wasn'tbothered at all. She was really pleased she didn't she'd done it. And the 3other black people in the room gave her a round of applause, were very happywith what went and we did something similar with some of them as Wellbeing wasn'talways racist language that we used. It might have been theirappearance or their job role or something we weren't happy within in the context of a railway situationfrom a service point of view. And,she wouldn't accept that. She said, no. I I still don't see why you haveto. I understand the need for it to be, realistic, but I stilldon't understand why you have to use racist language. Like,that's real I'm sorry, but that's real life, unfortunately. As much as wemight Bites like it not to be, that's real life. And so,you know, if if you were on a course, Jo, for example, I would doall sorts of transgenders stuff, you know, whichother people might think, how dare you do it? But the reason I'ddo it and I would only do it with your permission, but to to putyou in a situation where you felt uncomfortable and hadto really learn how to deal with it in the moment. And the coach wouldhelp you if you if you were struggling with it. But if you're doing fantasticallywell, they just say, well done, Jo. Keep going. Excellent. And itwe do the same with, people of all varieties. Imean, that we've had mute people on the course, deaf people on the course,people in wheelchairs, of every every color ofskin that you can imagine from every well, not every nationality, buta lot lot of different nationalities fromSomalian through to Pakistani, to Czech, to Slovakian,to you name it. We've we've worked with with plentyof lots of different communities. And,it's it's I'm just trying to think of anybody else who's evercomplained about it. I can't think of anybody else, honestly,in the I've been doing this since, about 12 years ago.She's the only person that's actually had a problem, but it was all about her.And she came late for the session. She didn't sign the piece ofpaper. We didn't get the get the opportunity to tell tell her aboutwhat the circumstances were and and to get her to read the sheet that sheneeded to sign. And, you know,Bites just very unfortunate. But mostimportantly, the people that needed the help got the help they needed on the day.And so we we've done our job.It's not your usual guess. I can I can I can imagine?
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And often, it's peoplefeigning offended on behalf of somebody elsewhen all they're really doing is they're having their kind of privilegechallenge aren't they they're kind of like well I don't want to listen to thatlanguage it doesn't happen in my world sort of thing so you're beingoffensive without but they often did not realizing thatthat's everyday lived experience of any people. That's right. And that's the reality of the
Mark Wingfieldguest
world. Yeah. Absolutely. That that and that's that's where it came from.And I I think also I might be being unfair here, butI I sensed a little bit of, well those thosepoor black people don't they're not able to look after themselves jo I've gotto do this for them. I sensed a little bit of that as well whichI thought was very distasteful. That benevolent, that Yeah. That maternal paternal
Joanne Lockwoodhost
kind of yeah. So, Yeah. No. That that's that's quiteprevalent. Yeah. I mean I mean, fortunately, most people that I I talk to inthe workplace, a lot of this is kind of subtle.It's it's it's not overt Bitesthe microaggressions Bites the kind of the whispering behindtheir backs the yeah, if you talk about maybe trans people, the misgenderingor the misnaming or the thatlook or the subtle exclusion or being suddenly you find you'retolerated and people walking away from you or the, you know, the playground bullystuff, not not not physical, a lot of it's more mental or subtleand that's that's the frustration, this thishumiliation, this, Yeah. That doesn't
Mark Wingfieldguest
always lend itself to the sort of aggression and the highoctane stuff I've just described. But what we also do sometimes is andquite often, actually, we do something called forum theater wherewe act out a situation and people throw situation to us andsay, right, can you role play this, please? So 2 of us role play thesituation on their behalf. And then they correct to say,oh, no. It doesn't work work out quite like that. Or, they throwin an idea of how it could work. You know, can you replay that? Sayit like this or change change the circumstance? And theyfind it very, very, practical. And so thosemicroaggressions you're talking about might be a really good thing to work on there.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah I'm just thinking sort of like the in the officewhere SEE casual sexism is atplay where the woman in the room isexpected to clear the table after the meeting or make the coffeesor or be talked over. So it's more techniques to SEEable to exert your your presence, yourauthority, seek allies, seek people around you to amplifyyou and to say actually it's not my roleto clear the coffee cups up, can somebodyit's not fair or whatever whatever the retort is or or itmight SEE in a particular instance if someone calls me mate, it'slike actually I'm not your mate, that's not language I like to SEE,I don't mind if you personally I don't mind if you call me love whereasmany many women will find love offensive, but I Joanne think it's right, it's actuallyquite validating. To be treated in asexist way is perversely quite validating for me.
Mark Wingfieldguest
Yeah I get that, yeah. Yeah jo it's yeah
Joanne Lockwoodhost
those are the kind of the workplace thingsthat go on day in day out. And that's if you're notthey're not physical, they're not overt. I mean, I I think that's yeah. The experientialstuff you're doing here is is very much out in the street.I fully understand, I fully see the needs of it. How Joanne people learn thesetechniques for SEE these micro, these kind of these subtle things, isn'tit? The drip drip drip stuff. Yeah. That that's more the forum theater stuff that
Mark Wingfieldguest
we do and, sitting down and talking things through. But, again,it can be extremely upsetting when you're in the receiving end. Sohaving some we we train people in, something called heart ratevariability control, for example. So youyou control the sinusoidal wave of,of your heart rate and the how itchanges because your hearts change all the time. And if you can control that, youcontrol the overproduction of adrenaline and cortisol. Youmake yourself feel much better through producing up to something called DHEAand have more focus by producing something called acetylcholine. Ifyou can get the frequency of your heart working correctly, we we teach people howto do that, and it enables you to access your thinking brain again. So ifyou've slipped into fight or flight, then this canjust focus you back very quickly. So you can use all of that greatexperience and and abilities, and you can you can herd people to help youand support you and have a strategy. But if you and ifyou can't do that or you're terrified or you're frozen,which happens to a lot of people, especially on our intimidating courseslike that bunny in the headlights type thing,If you don't have those those techniques, you can't then moveforwards, and you can't have those discussions and use those techniques that canreally assert the situation is not correct andwould you please do this type of response.Yeah. It it's a challenge. When you when you said something about I'm not yourmate, it just made me laugh because, I'm known in my family sayingthings like that. So so we at home, we had aguy around making, making some electrical repairs around theHappen. And, every second word was mate. Alright, mate.We're gonna put that installation there, mate. And then we're gonna do this, mate. Andthen we're gonna do that, mate. And I got sick and tired of it. AndI said, look. Can I just stop you there? I'm notyour mate. You can call me Mark. You can callme the boss. You can call me sir. You can call me customer, mistercustomer, but I'm not your mate. I'm yourcustomer. And when my kids heard that, they're like, dad, you can't saythat. I said, well Well, someone has to. Yeah. Someone has to say that. Yeah.That's right. You really do sometimes. Yeah. I mean, you you mentioned
Joanne Lockwoodhost
HRV and I found out a little bit about HRV. I was at a seminarjust over a year ago and there was this study Belongingon around the impact of HRV or the correlation between HRV andstress and they they found30 SEE and they wired them up with a with amonitor 20 fourseven flights 3 or 4 weeksand they wide up some other people who are not in those kind of roles,people in sort of kind of benevolent sort of calm roles. Andwhat they identified Bites some of these SEE, so so redin their language was high high was a low HRV. So lowHRV is bad, high HRV is good. You want you want a big heart ratevariability on the little one. Mhmm. That's what they were saying. Jo so theyidentified that a lot of these CEOs had HRV in a dangerousway, almost 20 fourseven, even when they were sleeping,their HRV was in the stress zone. And theyidentified that over the course of a day, they probably had 5 or 10minutes spread throughout the day where their HRV was kind of relaxed.And then they compared that with the HRV of people in nonstress roles or people who've got their kind of stress under controland they were the almost like polar opposite where their HRV wouldspike, but all their slate all their all their slate pattern wasunbroken by by basically this HRV being kind of in thegreen zone And so there's a huge link between the hashtags, strokes,mental well-being on HRV as well, so you talk about this fight or flightthis and I also noticed that my Apple Watch now has thisBreathe app and the Breathe Happen, when you activate theBreathe functionality, it actually causes HRV mechanism tomonitor during that Breathe cycle. So I've become a sincethat talk and then you mentioned I've become kind of aware of the linkbetween HRV, stress, anxiety and other things.
Mark Wingfieldguest
Yeah Bites all it's all interlinked. I first started working inthat in, 2007, and, and I'vegot a a little piece of software on my computer that Ihook people up to so that they can actually see their heart rate variability asthey're as they're doing this exercise. There's all sorts of softwarethat that that can help train people to do it. And,Fascinating. It's a bit of fun, but it's very, very practical stuff. That's that's allI'm interested in, practical things that will that will help.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Well, I just think I'm I'm fairly relaxed a lot of the time that yousay is, but my HRV is is not great. And I don't knowwhy that is because I'm not I'm pretty I'm pretty chilled out. I don't Idon't worry about a lot at the moment. And, so, yeah, I'm justI'm trying to figure out why my HRV is jo I've got a verylow HRV, which I think is bad, isn't it? You got you want big variabilityto indicate you're Well, I when I've been doing I mean, I've been doing this
Mark Wingfieldguest
quite a while, and I see I often get people out todemonstrate how you can, by yourself, learn how tocontrol your half rate Bites variability. And to me, it's theit's the shape of the curve that's more important. Some people have much shorter curvesthan others. So I'm not I I'm notfamiliar with the the the research that you're talkingabout. I'll be very interested to have a look at it, but it to mymind, having done this for a long time, theit's not so much the variability and yourthe elasticity of your heart heart ratereduces as you get older anyway. So as you getolder, you're gonna have less of a a peak and troughanyway simply because your your heart you know,imagine that that when you're a a 10 yearold and you're a 20 year old, you know, you you havevery, huge flexibility in in all of yourbody, not just your heart, and and it's just a symptom of that.Whereas when you as you get older, you know, things seize up a bitand don't work quite as well. I think that was the key thing. The the
Joanne Lockwoodhost
recovery going from high anxiety tolow anxiety that was the SEE as you said that the curve on the wayback down is the important thing. Yeah. Yeah. It's,
Mark Wingfieldguest
and it's easy to learn. You know? It it's just simpletechniques, but then you can bolster it with some psychologicaltechniques. And, if we had more time, I could I could go into someof those and explain how they work. But Sure. I mean, I I I I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
jo suffer from, high blood pressure. Andwhenever I was having my blood pressure taken, I knew that if I could getmyself into a zone and I could reduce it from being150 over to 120 over just by really just byputting myself in this place in my head. Yeah. And I could I could actuallythink my blood pressure down Yes. And the nurse looked to me like I wascrazy, I said, well no, just give me a second now. And shejo, wow, how did you do that? I said, yeah, I just gotta put myselfin this place where I can do that. Mhmm. I guess that's likea a micro meditation, isn't it? It's kind of some way of just knowing youcan bring take control of your body again. Yeah. I I
Mark Wingfieldguest
use distraction techniques, in a whole host of things. Imean, in heart rate variability and also when I do, Havening, forexample, as well, which is a trauma therapy I use.And the power of the mind is is phenomenal,and we don't we don't tap into it enough. You know, we weallow it to run us rather than us take control. So I helppeople take the control back. Well,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
on on that note, I think oh, and we could talk when we've been goingto SOVA now. I'm sure we can talk for a lot longer and yeah. WeHappen. And I think what we do isif we wrap it up there I mean andanyone who's listening I'm sure can get in contact with you SEE how can peopleget in touch? What's the best way of finding you? Well, it
Mark Wingfieldguest
it's been it's been pretty enjoyable, Jo. Thanks for that. I wasn't that disflatingthe breakfast stuff we were going to talk about today. But to get intouch, if you if you look Mark Wingfield from MaxUp, m a x,you'll find me in a in any search engine. Bites I'mon, LinkedIn, a little bit onTwitter. I've just just started on Instagram. I'm just dabdabbling, dipping my toe in Instagram. That's under Max trainDiversity. And, I have ahaveningmax.com is my Havening website, but I'malso, on maxconflictmanagement.combecause that's a lot of bread and butter work that I normally do.That's always m a x. So thank you very much indeed, Jo. It's been fun,and, we'll talk again soon. Didn't you
Joanne Lockwoodhost
mention that, you got an offer foranyone who's listening that they can, they can, take Indeed. Take a bar shotfor the new year. Is that right? Yeah. Thanks for reminding John for talking about
Mark Wingfieldguest
that. Yeah. I I runonline workshops to learn how toreduce fear and anxiety. And they've been very successful andpopular since I first started doing them in May. Andthey're continuing. So into the new year, there'll be various dates onmy Eventbrite site. So, again, if you look at Max training and developmenton Eventbrite And if you put in, JoLockwood as a code, that's jo oso, capital letter j thenlowercase, that's the word, lowercase jo, and then uppercasel, and then the rest of Lockwood as a code. No gaps.As a thank you for anybody coming on here and and listening to to mespout away for a little while, there's immediate 10% offcoming along there. And, so, yeah,everybody will welcome to come along. You don't have to talk about what it mightbe that upsets you or you want to work with. It's very quick. It'spermanent. It's fantastic. So, come along experience. There's a video onthe on the Venbrite page to explain what what all that's about. Bites thank youfor reminding me, Jo. Yeah. That's that's open to any, please. Brilliant.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
What I'll do is I'll make sure we put those details whenon the show notes and, when we share this episode. Jo,yeah, click click below, you'll find it and,we'll make sure you do that. So thank you very much and ahuge thank you to the listeners, you, fortuning in. Please do subscribe and keepupdates on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast that'sB-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends, tell your colleagues, I'm sure you have loads.Well, I've got a number of exciting guests lined up just likeMark and I'm sure you'll be inspired by them over the next few weeks months.And of course, if you'd like to be a guest, if you'd like to inspirepeople, I'd welcome you to get in touch as well.So as always, if you've got any ideas, feedback, suggestions,then please do email me to jo atseachangehappen.co.uk.I'd love your thoughts on how we can improve. So finally, my name is JoanneLockwood and it's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today.Catch you next time. Bye.
