Joanne Lockwoodhost
Hello everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for theInclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I'll be interviewing anumber of amazing people and simply having a conversation about thesubject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making theworld a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like tojoin me in the future, then please drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.That's S-E-E Change Happen dot Co dotuk. You can catch up with all the previous shows on Itunes,Spotify, and the usual places. So plug in yourheadphones, grab a decaf and let's get going.Today is episode 25 with the title'Being Visible, Listened to and Respected'.And I have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by SusanHeaton-Wright. Susan describes herself as someone whoempowers individuals and teams to make an impactin business conversations. When I asked Susan todescribe her superpower, she said, empathy.She is able to understand emotions, perspectives, and opinionsfrom different viewpoints. Hello, Susan. Welcome tothe show. Hello. Thank you so much for having me.It's a pleasure. I mean, we've been talking about this for a few months now,and I'm glad we finally got together to do this. Yay. It's great.So who who is Susan? Tell me what you mean by being visible,listened to, and respected. What does that look and feel like to you? Do you
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
know there's a part of me that feels, oh my goodness. I'm blowingmy trumpet. I'm showing off. And that'smy sort of introvert state and the type ofperson that I was brought up to be. Somebody that wasquiet and in the background and very, very humble.And I am aware through my own life andalso with a number of clients that I now work withthat sometimes they are underestimated and they'renot as visible as they can be. And perhapsthey miss out on some great opportunitiesor are not promoted when they ought to be.For for my perspective, when I was a schoolgirl,I shall admit that I was very much underestimated. Itell the story that when I was16, 17, when everyone was applying to university,my school would not give me an applicationform for university because they did not feel thatit was worth my while. I wasn't bright enough. Yet I havethe exam results to prove that, but there was a questionmark attached to that. What I happened to dowas to find an application for my last headmistressto complete the the application for me, and I hadended up at a top university. ButI recognize that because of the my demeanorand the way I was and why I was quiet, that I wasbeing underestimated. And so there was that question markthat perhaps somebody that was a little bit more confidentwould that the question mark wouldn't be there for the teachers.Have you found that at all? Yeah. That's that's interesting. I'm I'm I'm just
Joanne Lockwoodhost
thinking back to my own childhood, and I'm in my mid-50sand just kind of the culture of the time was very much I remember myparents saying to me don't speak unless you're spoken to,if you ask you don't get. So it's very much a culture ofhumbleness and I would almost say that beinghumble, being quiet, being thoughtful wasa valued way of being a child in those days. If youweren't you were kind of shouted down or orpunished or or told off for being too noisy orbeing too out there. So I think maybesocialization that we've we've we've brought up withgoing back generations is having a real impact on us, isn't it?
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
I think it is. And and, certainly, thatidea that if you work hard, you willbe rewarded. And we know that in corporateculture, that it's not necessarily thosepeople that work very, very hard and get the best resultsthat are rewarded. And this plays
Joanne Lockwoodhost
into one of my pet subjects around meritocracy.Meritocracy is it often is the people who are visible, the people who areextrovert, the people who are grabbing that are seenas morejust more capable. Yes. We oftenwe people I mean, you know, and I know it from experience that justbecause you're loud doesn't mean to say you're any better, it just means to sayyou're loud. It doesn't mean you're quiet. You're off and you're inthe pushover very valid is we don't talk and amplify ourselvesenough, people don't see us. We've got to be our, we've gotto learn to be our own advocate sometimes, haven'twe? I think Jo, and also we need to
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
demonstrate how well we're doing things. Sothere we know that there are some people that they will blow theirtrumpet if they, I don't know, wipe their noseor something teeny weeny like that. Whereas you andI, with the way that we were brought up, we would probably think,well, you you know, that that's part of living,isn't it? I don't need to, need to show offabout that. But unfortunately, when itcomes to decision making, it can bethose people that are remembered that have made theeffort to blow their trumpet and exposetheir merits. Yeah. And and certainly, I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
mean, I I'm a small business owner. I'm a consultant practitioner, similarway you are. So if I don't blow my trumpet nobody else is going toblow it for me. And we've hadto maybe escape our programming andtalk about personal brand, talk about social selling, talk aboutnetworking and being being our business and being visible out there,but I often find that that doesn't always come natural to me and II always shy away when people describe me or they they read out mybio or they've written something about it and I think, oh, that's a that's abit kind of, it's lovely what you're saying, but I'm not sure I'mcomfortable being described as a world expert or anything. It's kindof and yet there are people out there that rise to that thatthat language and they are, oh, yes, I'm a world expert and they declare themselvesand Yes. Yeah. I I get a bit embarrassed almostbecause I don't want to be putting myselfI want I want to have my personal Joanne, but I don't necessarily wanna putmyself right up there on the on the pedestal and say I'm best oranything like this. Do you think that there's something very English about
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
this? We talk about the the tall poppy syndrome,that somebody will see somebody growing up andbeing big and then cut them down, particularly the media.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yes. I mean, for sure, we we see that all the time. And there's,I saw a speaker, who's written a book, a lady called Margaret Hefferman,and she she wrote the book and she talks about the super chicken. And that'ssomething, you know, often where women do it to each other. They peckat each other And the super chicken is the big chicken, the bully chickenthat pecks all the other women and all the other chickens and puts them down.And I think sometimes we don't like successes,do we, we want to and the media does it but we look at Instagram,we look at telly, we're the first to judge, don't we judge? We look at,oh, don't like that dress or those shoes or Jo, no hair style. Andeven when we say, oh, you look lovely, what we really mean is buy wouldn'twear it. Yes. I mean, you I don't know if you know that
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
part of my background is that I used to be a singer.And certainly, if you would go to other concertsor events, there would be a certain culture aroundobviously not saying nasty things. But you knewif somebody said, well, you know, the flat the floral decorationsin the venue were lovely, you knew that it wasn't verygood. Yes. You draw attention to the
Joanne Lockwoodhost
thing that you find mostdistracting or or whatever you're thinking about and then put a positive spin on it,don't you? Oh, I love I love your shoes. Really?
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
Yeah. It it's really interesting about what Icall the green eyed monster, and,us going on to Instagram or Facebook,occasionally that you can you're aware of something triggeringoff and you're thinking, oh, why is that not me? Why are theygetting that work? And I have consciouslythought of when I feel that to just take a deepbreath and then say well done, even if I don't say it tothe individual, but it to myself, Isay well done to that person, rather than letting iteat me inside, which could be the thenormal thing to do. Do you dothat? Yeah. That yeah. That that's that's that's so true.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I I like to say thank you to people. I like to make sure thatpeople know that I'm grateful. But in the same way, I want it tobe authentic and and meaningful. So I'm not oneto go over the top, I'm more one to give a quiet 'thanks Ireally appreciate that' rather than 'wow you're amazing' andhuge, huge great trumpet. Jo, yeah, Isuppose I I tend to praise in the way I like to bepraised meaningful, understated, but verypersonally, almost like find the one thing that I think they'd bemost they'd be most pleased with that I've identified, ratherthan giving us big, kind of flowerylots of superlatives going on, I'd rather say I love totalk and when you said this that really resonated. That that for me isvery specific and it's a great great direct feedback rather thanyou're wonderful and amazing and, ah, it's awesome. That meansnothing to me. But do you think that depends on the person it
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
is? Because somebody that's very, you know, outthere, that sort of acclaim, oh, we were wonderful,might be exactly what fires them up.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Oh, for sure. I I I'm I'm I'm the first one toallow or or want or or everyone to be themselves. I wouldn't want tojudge anybody or anyone in their own box if that's the way theywant to express that's fine. It I suppose what resonates forme is where it is more precise, more more considered,and more thought about and I'm not I'm not judging someone who does the thebig flowery articles stuff and saying they haven't thought about itbut I often think of that as kind of just this this big sort oflike big lovey huggy kissy type type of thingrather than being a rather being as sincere, but that that's just the way Ilike feedback. They may well be being sincere, and that's how they do it.So I would never I would never shy away from it. I would just say,oh, thank you. You oh, you're wonderful. Thank you for saying that. Yes.But I'm not, I mean in the same way, I'm not I'm not a greatfan of award ceremonies and I've beennominated for a few awards and I'm abit cynical because often the the awards ceremony are about selling ticketsto the award event. I know. Or promoting someone's brand Yeah.And they want everyone, they want to nominate the entire world, so the entireworld talks about it for 6 months while they're being nominated, then they talk aboutthe shortlist. So I'm very cynical about it and I I have got nominated fora few. And I did partake in kind of the early publicity andthen I wrote to the award giver and said, look, I really appreciate thenomination, but I'd like to withdraw. It's not me. I don't wantto be it's I I fully respect for those in the suit, but I'd ratherbe understated than under the radar. I do my personal Joanne inother ways. And it was almost like I couldn't see my back going, oh,that's a surprise. Okay, if you say so. No one's ever donethat before. But, yeah, I I don'tneed a medal, but I I do. I II, yeah, I I I amplify and and shine my light in differentways. Yeah. Ways I feel more comfortable with. Do you know what? One of the
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
things that I pledged to do there are a few things I pledged to doto lift other people up and to support other people,And that is to nominate 3 women for businessawards every year. Yes. I'vedone my 3 this year. One of them wasn't successful. I'm still waiting forthe other 2 to see if they're shortlisted.But, certainly, that that brings realjoy to other people. And, itjust it is I feel, a way that I feelcomfortable about,supporting other people and putting the spotlight onthem? Yeah. I think a lot
Joanne Lockwoodhost
of it is Joanne to my own personal bias. Yeah. About not valuingthat myself in that way. Yeah. Or the embarrassment orthe uncomfortableness of of being recognized forthat and me thinking well, hang on a minute, I know I've done some goodstuff, but surely there are better people, you know, my business decision will kickin and thinking well how can I bebusiness startup of the year in Portsmouth? It's just it's likewhat you're saying is, I'm in the 5 people we're lookingat, you are the winner of the 5 people we've looked at. There's a 1000people we haven't looked at. It just happens you have you you you're in theright queue at the right time. That's why I sometimes finda bit cynical about some of these awards ceremonies, it's who's nominated you,who are are you really the winner or are youjust the winner of the people in the room? Yes.
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
But that's right then. But I I accept they could. I I say make people
Joanne Lockwoodhost
feel good, it has people to shout about their business and promote, I'm I'm notall in favor, but, yeah, I'm not I'm not poo pooing them, I just I,I get very cynical personally about them. You know, in my
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
case, I'm supporting someone else, and even if theydon't get through, they know that I have givensome of my time to write that application.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. I'm I'd say I'm I'm completely with with otherpeople enjoying them and and volunteering. And one thing strangehappened to me this year was actually people started askingme to be a judge on award ceremonies. So I thought,'mhmm, I've gone from being a candidate to now being a judge, doesthat mean I've skipped over,and gone to a new level where people are now seeingme as an authority whereas before they were seeing me as an aspiring. Now nowI'm judging. So I I just try to work out if that was aninsult or or or or a, congratulations. I suddenlythought, hang on a minute. I wanted to be I would have been nominated forthat award, but now I'm judging it. Okay. Fair enough.
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
And 2 things on that. Are they expecting you to pay for theprivilege? Because some They would. Yeah. Some of the oddsdo, which I think is incredibly naughty, or to askfor sponsorship, or they see you in the veterancategory now. Yeah. Yes. The seasoned
Joanne Lockwoodhost
professional. Yeah. It was actually BBC RadioSolent that asked me to to be a judge ontheir community heroes award. So I was reviewing the entriesfor their community heroes and for people who'd gone above and beyondin in some respect. This is normally it's for preCOVID, this was about people who had gone out their way to help neighbors,raise funds or do something, just be a community hero. So I was a judgein that award, I found that quite quite inspiring because it it's notstrictly an award I want to competein, but so I found it a real honour to judge other people who've reallycontributed to their communities. So yeah, it was an honour to bechosen as a judge or, someone who could contribute.
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
Definitely. So, yeah, yeah. Jo, I did enjoy that. Yeah. And I was also invited
Joanne Lockwoodhost
to do another another award which got canceled due toCOVID but I I also have a I'm a guest judgeon us I think called the NORA's which is a, a nationalrecruitment award. It's about websitesand and recruitment systems. So I've been a judge on that for a couple ofyears. So yeah, so yeah, it's nice tobe on the judging Joanne. Especially when I haven't,I don't actually fit into the categories myself, so it's nice to be a judge.
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
So yeah. And nice to be asked. Yeah. Oh, it's
Joanne Lockwoodhost
extremely validating and empowering and and motivating to beasked. It's a little gift with a huge impact. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.Jo, go then. Sorry, you're gonna say? I think we
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
should go back to, the idea of visibility because we've wetalked about the visibility through awards.And certainly with a number of my clients,I'm brought in to work with people who are incrediblepeople. They're producing fantasticwork, but they've had feedback, oh, you'vegot to make more impact in meetings or theclient thinks you're very quiet. Andinevitably these people aremore reflective. They're taking a little bit more time toreally consider what they're going to saybefore they share information.And I I have no problem with that. I totally understandthem. You know, as a child I would be called boring probably becauseI was told never to talk. I don't know if you had that.And and certainly in 1 or 2 cases, their bosseshave said, no, they're really boring. And and it's not the case at allbecause you listen to them and find out who they are, andthey're amazing people. But thethe culture in in corporates quite oftendoes value those people that are speaking up more,rather than speaking up with really goodquality content. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And I think back at my career in companiesand corporates, I was running teams or managing departments.And yeah, you're right, you tend to gravitate towards the people who will likeyou communicate with you, talk to you, shareideas, don't come with problems, they'recoming, they're very positive impact, and the people who are quiet,it's very easy for them to be left behind or ignored or, or notheard. And I've my, my stylegenerally, if I'm, if I'm the new girl in a room in ain a meeting, is to spend the 1st period listening tothat maybe even be the entire meeting, I've even had someone at the end saying,we do like our trustees to speak out and give their opinions. Okay? It'sokay. When I when I have something to say, you'll hear it, don't worry.And so sometimes I'm looking at the personalities in the room going,okay, working at you, working at you, working out where Ifeel I fit myself, working out my level of fieldof expertise, if before I before I start talking about the accountsor the p and l or the sales figures, I wanna know whateverybody else's kind of views are because what I don't wanna do is is jumpin and be an idiot or or seem foolish. And I wannajudge the the level of directness people have. Yeah. So I needto I need to understand my style could be this and that might be abit of a shock for people or I might go in too soft when actuallythey want directness. So again, I I see that asevaluating the land first and then I'll go right now I've gotthis and I'll go for something I'll join in and people arealmost like you can see people go oh Jo's got a voice. Wow. Actuallyand when she talks, it's worth listening to. Yes. Brilliant.
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
Do you think Sorry. Yeah. Do do you think that the chairpersoncould, have more of a mini more of an impact on that? Imean, obviously, with trustee meetings, you get an agendabeforehand. Hopefully, there are some clearoutcomes that you want to achieve by the end of the meeting. Not always,but that's what we hope. And for a chairman tosay and and, Joanne, what do you think if that was the firsttime you were around that table? Oh, completely.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And, yeah, I I think at the end I mean, I I I'veI've I've been a chair of trustees for several charities.I've, been a non exec director of a couple of organizations.I've I've been a director of my own business, high-tech staff over theyears. So I'm I'm not shy. I've also,I've also been the national president of a of an organization throughout thewhich is UK wide. So I've chaired big AGMs with600 people in the room, I've traveled the country, I've I'vechaired meetings all my life, so I I'm I'm actually not shybut I still have this slowly slowly approachto things and as a as achair, I would always make sure I look around the room who's not included,who's not who's not speaking and say and actually deliberatelysay Jo Helen,we were talking about this earlier, you have some great ideas. Do you want tojust tell me those again? Because I think you have some great ideas earlier. Butthat also requires the chair, do some homework and talk to the people betweenmeetings, engage with them before the meeting starts, is there anything youwant to think about, anything in the agenda that you want to pick up andthen you know how to include people if they're not saying anything, because theworst thing you get in meetings is people just saying the expected to be Iagree with them and you end up with they keep repeating whatsomeone has to say, it's like, well, if everyone's agreeing with them, can we justwe just have new new comments or people who disagree or people who've got anotheridea? But if you haven't got anything to say that's different then we justgo okay. So we're all happy with that, are we? Yeah. And there's nothingworse than a a room full of people telling you I agree with the firstperson. Okay. That is a really, really
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
interesting point. And only a couple of weeks ago, Iposted something on LinkedIn that provoked a lot of of,interest and that was that I said, if you are atthe table at a meeting, it's yourduty to share your opinion. And your opinion mightnot land well with everybody else, but at least it will start adiscussion and help in the in theprocess, the decision making. And it's not about a fight,but it's about having your voice and your opinion and yourperspective on a particular item.And it was very, very interesting because one person contactedme, from the US and she said, the thing is,when everybody says yes and agrees, it's avery, very expensive decision making processbecause all of those people could be doing something else in the business.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yes. You actually want to have views that that not Joargue or disagree strongly, but have a amodification or a reflection that maybe is is not being thoughtabout. So I agree with so and Jo, but one of the things I wasthinking of could we do this as well or instead or just adjust thewording slightly that it's adding value or modifying theoriginal motion if you like. I'm just saying yeahYeah. You're right. Yeah. If you're not careful, why be there? Yeah. But
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
also another another American contactedme who always comments on my things, which is fantastic. Loveit. And he said one of the prob he one of the problemshe encountered as a leader was that quiteoften people would just say yes from a political point of view.They wanted to see be seen as agreeing with theleader for strategic purposes.I've got this call. Is this trouble in meetings where often the first
Joanne Lockwoodhost
thing that happens is the person in power, the leader, the personwho's running the meeting will often say this is what I want to talkabout and this is what I think. So they saybasically, I've told you what I think and I want you to agree withme or or or be it conflict with me.And people often, you say people you talked about in the beginning who are introvert.They're not willing to be a conflict, are they? Jo. Of course not. And
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
if there is a power struggle anyway, they don't want to rock the boat. AndI can I can get that? It's sort of settinga a framework where individual opinionis not valued because the leadersalready set set the agenda and and what the outcomeis. Yeah. I I think as
Joanne Lockwoodhost
a as a whole Joanne, I mean, when I when I talkabout inclusion from a business perspective, it one of the things is aboutcommunication and listening. And the leaders need to start by listening, not by notby telling or or manipulating the outcomeby giving opinion. And the oh, one of my bugbears,
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
I have a number, as you can probably realize,is when people run, speak like a leaderchallenges. And actually, it should never be speak likea leader. It should be communicate like aleader. And you hit the nail on the head about listening.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. We we don't listen. We we we we we talkto sell our opinion. We talk to prove ourselves,right, we talk to prove ourselves that we've got more value than somebody or wegot a we're we're intelligent or worth somethingrather than saying, actually, I I wanna talk so I can find out. I wannaactually I'm I'm only talking to clarify. I'm talking to find outinformation. I'm questioning because I maynot be right. And there's a there's a state there's a there's a quote Ioften use in terms of the training I run, which is, strongopinions are weakly held. So it's great to have an opinion, it's great toknow what you stand for, it's great to know you have have somevalue. But you also you hold those opinions so lightly,that you want to prove yourself wrong, you want to find outwhether your theory, you're testing yourself, your perspective isvalid. How often do we go in there saying I'm right,actually, how about I could be wrong, tell me what youthink. I'm really interested to understand why you think differently to me thenI can modify my sense of right and wrong or perspective and go,actually, Susan's got a point there. I hadn't thought of that before. ButI don't hear that if I'm just saying I'm right to die.
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
I agree with you. And that what a what an enlighteningperspective on on sharing opinions.We are in a world, I feel, that's very polarized.We've seen in the United States how, youknow, with the election, 2 verydiffering sides. And even here in the United Kingdom,particularly with, dare I say, the b word, Brexit, thereare still people that are, you know, you mentionsomething and and you're almostworking walking on, eggshellsthinking, oh my goodness, I better not say that. Better not have an opinionbecause the other this person's gonna just faraway. I I remember 2 years agosomebody that I've known for 17, 18 years, Isaw her in the library as one does.And she was, you know, concernedabout Brexit and everything. And I said,well, you know, everybody has an opinion. Everyone has theright to voice their opinion in a vote.And she got terribly upset with me just for sayingthat and it ended up with sort of thefinger in my face because she was so angry.And I I thought that was a real shame that wecouldn't just have a conversation aboutopinions and values and the rights.It, it, it shocked me, and it and itwas saddened me. Alright. Let's talk about
Joanne Lockwoodhost
something contemporary. I mean, I'd like to think the Brexit remainargument has been done. We we we we've left, it's done,whatever. Yes. I've I've lost any energy.The way I see the world is now we've just got to park it andsay whether you loved it or hated it, whether you still love it or stillhate it, it's happening, it's happened, let's make thebest of it. So to me that's kind of like a there's no point inbreaking that up. No, I agree with you. Wherewe are now, I think, is in a if you look at where we aretoday in 2020, 20 20 December and goinginto 2021, is the the new debate aroundvaccine, to have the vaccine or not have the vaccine. We again we'vegot another set of populist perspectivesaround not being vaccinated and around being vaccinated.And that's going to be another major divisive issue in the countrywhere we're not going to be able to come to any consensus because thepeople who advocate for vaccines are going to be veryparalyzed around what is anybody who doesn't want to be vaccinated must bestupid. And anybody who is not wanting to bevaccinated say well, you're misinformed about the dangers. Andeveryone's got experts, everyone's got a scientist, everyone's got a professor,everyone's got medium and Google and all these otherinformation sources. It's really hard to have ahave a conversation where people are actually asking questions tosay, okay, so I understand that you're worried about theeffects of a vaccine and you are concerned about having it for theimpact to your health in the future, so where did you get that information?Where can I read about your concerns? Whosaid that? Whereas all I wanna say is, no,I'm happy to be vaccinated, therefore you must becrazy if you don't want to be. And that doesn't work for anybody, does it?We have this polarized Yes. Opinions, and there's no room for thecentrist discussion sometimes. Yeah. And, yeah, it's the it's
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
that central discussion thatcould change the mind of those people that arepolarized on either side?
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I mean, I'm I'm trying to boil people down into into 3broad camps. There's those who are gonna be vaccinated, yeah, I'm going tobe vaccinated, we're going to be vaccinated, we're all for it, anybody who doesn't mustbe crazy. So there's the there's the front runners here, give me the vaccine, let'sdo it. Then there's the people in the middle going, whoare more like the the herd, the sheep, yeah, I'll say well once once everybodyelse hasn't dropped dead and it becomes kind of the thing to do,I'll be in there 2nd, I'm waiting for I'll be 2nd, I don't wanna beleading edge. If you've got the people who are the other side who maybecan't have the vaccine for health reasons, autoimmune,allergic to egg, whatever whatever reason from a health perspective, they can't.Or they have a belief that the vaccine,will cause them harm, which so there's that group of people. Sothere's now talk about modifying the the app to better flag whetheryou're vaccinated or not vaccinated. So I'm gonna end up with this this classdivide of unless you can prove you've been vaccinated, youcan't come into my shop, you can't come into the workplace, you can't travel onthe bus. Yeah, it's your right not to be vaccinated, it's not yourright to bring your unvaccinated body into this organization. Andthen how do we how do we rationalise that from an inclusion,belonging, and people perspective? That's if you're notcareful, that's where the country's headed, isn't it? A very, very difficult
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
situation. And certainly, with vaccines for children,and that has been bubbling away since my sonwas a baby. The MMRstuff started when he was a baby.But I know that in France, they actually don't allowchildren to start school unless they've had a seriesof vaccinations. And yet over here, that was deemed tobe improper. And I I would actually agree withthat. I would be very uncomfortable if little kidswho had no say in that were excluded from school.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. It's it's very fine. I I'm in my midfifties. I I was a pin cushion at school like most people.Yeah. It was it was probably before, I'm not sure if it wasMMR at the time or whether I had the separate measles, rubella andmumps as a separate. But I was doing polio, I've gotBCG, I've got I've doing this. I I wasI spent a brief time after leaving school in the in the armed forces inthe RAF. I had yellow fever, diphtheria. Yes, I had.I went there for the full pin cushion over the first 3 years in theRAF. And I've I've traveled to Hong Kong on business and anotherplace on business. One of the prerequisites is you should have,hepatitis b jabs or yellow fever jabs or top upsand I didn't take anything off it, I just went okay, it says on itsays on the guidelines I must go and get this jab before I go, poof,check myself in, go and have it done. So people wereprobably having these yellow fever people who are anti vaxxing are probably doing thisto go on holiday now. Yes. Cholera or you know, would you gowould you go would you go in a cholera zone without a cholera Joanne? Wouldyou go into a smallpox zone without a smallpox Jo? No, you wouldn't. But you'rehappy to walk around the country in in what you think is safebecause we're we're we're first world. Yeah. It's clean here.
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
It's it's bizarre. And and I'm I'm I'm gonnagossip now. One of one of myn, you know, NCT, thegroup, she's anti vaxx and she has,4 children and has never vaccinated any of them.The first one, when he went to university, the first day he found themedical center and said, give me everything.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Hit me. Hit me here. I want every
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
vaccination going. Yeah. I I mean, we
Joanne Lockwoodhost
we started this talk right at the beginning about giving people avoice and I think we should allow people whohave alternate views Yes. To not feel shouted down,to express their concerns, tosay this worries me, this scares me'and be willing to engage as a society to provideeducation and awareness that can be heard because oftenwe end up, as I said, we end up with these 2 polarized camps. I
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
agree with you. And people who want to find out more, feel they
Joanne Lockwoodhost
can't step out of their echo chamber, their circle of friends,you know, they everybody thinks like them, they all talk about thisAnd therefore to to to be curious in the, what if I change my mindcap, am I gonna lose all my friends because everyone is so polarized? Yes.
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
I agree. About you. Yes. And,I mean, certainly from my perspective, if if I were totalk to that woman about anti, you youknow, vaccinations, she's very polarized andhas a very strong opinion and I've always respected her forit even though I don't agree with her, onon that. But what I foundis is that she got quite aggressive about that and waswas actually really frightening othermothers into, not having vaccinations,without providing some proof around it.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So they've got this unshakable beliefof being right or or almost? Because doctor
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
Google Google. Yeah. Or or or
Joanne Lockwoodhost
adopting this role of of protector Yes. Of society andtherefore they know best therefore I mustbut you can apply the same to the to the lay person beingpro vax couldn't you? They're trying to do exactly the same. So it's notwe're not we're not saying one person is more right or less right, we're justsaying that that's what happens, isn't it? We we get the 2 camps, the proand the against. Definitely.
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
And, personally, I'm more inclined to listento medical opinion onthat. Perhaps not, if if ifI'm being honest, perhaps not, thefacts of the the pharmaceuticals because of coursethey've got a vested interest in it. But if you talk tomedical professionals and, you you know, I've I've got a few friends whoare working in the NHS and they're saying, this is ahorrible disease. It's horrific.Please get vaccinated. To hear itfrom them is very interesting. But you don't
Joanne Lockwoodhost
think with the rise of populism and the Internet that theunquestionable authority of a medical professionalis now not being believed, is it? Oh, absolutely. Because
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
because Lockwood Google says this. Yeah. And there's always
Joanne Lockwoodhost
there's always there's always a doctor or professor that you can findthat speaks against it and suddenly well myresearch I saw this article from a doctor and they said blahblah blah And you don't know who this doctor is, you don't know where theircredentials are. I Yeah, Iappreciate that. I I remember a couple of years ago going down
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
a sort of Google rabbit hole because somebody said tome that, your vocal foldscould be paralyzed by beetrootjuice. Now I it was something I'd never heard and,you know, I was a professional singer. It's the sort of thing that Iwould have heard if it had been truthful. ButI I decided to do some research about it. Andafter a couple of hours, I found the source, and it was somebody that wasin an into alternative medicine thatwas promoting juices tofight cancer. And one of thethings which, you you know, andone of the things that he said was and one of the thedownsides is that if you take, beet rootjuice that your vocal folds will be paralyzed. Youwon't be able to talk. But there was no evidence around that,but this was being quoted verbatim.So there there's an example. Yeah. There's lots about
Joanne Lockwoodhost
that. Yeah. And, I mean, I I lookat maybe my own characteristics around being trans. There's lotsof experts who are passionate in both sides. There'straditionists, there's all this and yeah, andwe have we dig out experts. And I thinkthere's a danger that in order to be unbiased,and creating debate and letting all people speak, then what we canoften do is amplify voices that are minority voicesand suddenly give them credibility and credence, can't we? Particularly
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
if they're the loudest person in the room. Yeah. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Exactly. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Andthat's what we we started talking about, it's about the extrovert and that energetic.And and what the I mean, let's go back to the work you're doing withorganizations about being this superstar communicator and how you, howJo you work with people to, to give them a voice and give them presence.Jo let's talk a bit about more about that. Well, one of the things that
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
I, have done is create my own communicationsmodel, spoken communications model,and I identified 5 key areas that I believeare essential to be able tospeak more effectively and with moreimpact. And the 5 areas are, audience,so, you know, the purpose of you speaking, understanding youraudience, and I'm summarizing very briefly thecontent. And there are ways that you can construct yourcontent Jo it's more impactful rather than somebody wafflingon and everybody just gets lost in the meet you youyou're going, yes. I get you on thatone. Preparation of which, including,reading the agenda, but also managing your fear with that.I do a lot of work on managing fear. The performanceside, so it's slightly different when it's virtual, butin face to face, obviously, there's more of a nonverbalcommunication impact taking place. But even onvirtual, facial expressions a little bit with your gesturesand certainly your body language make an impact. And thenfinally, the voice. And I don't mean about singing,I mean about I believe that you should speak soit's as easy as possible for other people to listen toyou. So it's not hard work if you mumbleor you've got you have, you youspeak too fast. People are gonna switch offbecause it they're having to work very hard to listen to you.So thinking, but making it more impactful byactually having a bit of interest in your voice or a bit ofpassion because sometimes people are monotone. Andagain, the other people in the room will just switchoff because we're humans. Yeah. That that
Joanne Lockwoodhost
really resonates because I when I talk about communicating and Ioften say it's incumbent on each of us to understand howthe other person wants to consume what you're saying. So youcan't always say to the other person you must change how you hear, I mustsometimes change how I speak to be understood. If youdon't hear what I'm saying, if I'm not if I'm not landing what I'm sayingcorrectly, I need to back off and Jo, okay, how can I deliver thisdifferently? Either different phraseology, different speech,repeat, clarify, whatever that may be, rather than say,oh, it's your fault for not hearing me. Exactly. Maybe it's my faultfor not speaking correctly. Yes. But also, if if you
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
understand who your audience are, you know, if you think of atypical interdepartmental meeting, you mighthave IT, HR, you might have the lawyersthere, the accountants, you've got marketing.You might have a whole range of different people who might havedifferent terminology. They might speaka slightly different sub language. I don't think that's aword. But what we need to do in order for itto really make an impact is to modify the languagewe use and examples so that it it will be veryeasy for them to digest. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I I mean, I I I recognize that there's some people who want me toget to the point. So I'll I'll start with the answer and thenexplain it. Yeah. Other people want the explanation first and thenthe answer. And when you're writing sales proposals is andand you're trying to sell something, it's important to know which sort of person you'retalking to. Yes. Andother people just want a story first. They want you to wow them. Yeah. Andthen you softwares them enough, and they'll they'll buy anything. Other people just gonna cutto the chase. What are you selling? Okay. Do I want it? Yes or no?Yes, I want it. Right now now I listen to you. Jo, yeah, it's itreally is understanding the audience. And when I talkabout DNI, I often say that we we need to bring everybody on this journeytogether and recognize that there has to be abusiness case because that's what the financial people want. Yes. There has tobe a a human fact because that's what the HR orthese people want. There has to be a strategy element because that's what the boardof directors wants. So we need to understand that this multi headedbeast needs to be sort of packaged up and communicateddifferent ways. Yes. I think what you're saying thereis is is the way I I talk about DNI aboutincluding people in conversations. And I'm saying each personcommunicates differently. Yes. Yeah. Oh, you know,
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
there isn't and there is nothing wrong withhaving your own style of speaking, but beingaware that modifying it just slightlysidestepping or changing the vocabulary that youuse slightly so that you include people isvery very powerful. I think the
Joanne Lockwoodhost
other thing when we talk about power and privilege, one one of the things Isay is is is having power and privilege disinhibitsyou. So you're less sensitive to the needs of others.Yeah. You're more likely to be sensitive to your own needs. So often people wefind in power and privilege the leaders speak in the way theywant to speak without considering the others whereas if you're,a subordinate, you would tend to have to adapt your talking toupwards. Yes. And I think the power of a great leader is they adapttheir speaking downwards and they communicate so they canbe understood by everybody rather than just by their peers and that's the challenge,isn't it? Absolutely. It's almost like
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
having to take your your crown off and,put, you know, flat cap on for want of a better analogyJo that you can be one of the people rather than thethe absolute star. Yeah. I mean, one of
Joanne Lockwoodhost
the someone once said that if you you've got the the the dailynewspapers are designed for a reading age of 9 or 10 or somethingbecause they're really trying to they're putting it using simple language, they're notusing they're not using obscure words or long words or big hardsentences cause they recognize their average audience wantsto consume it quickly, they want to get straight to the point and sometimes youhave to put it in that 9 or 10 year old language so that it'svery easy for everybody. Absolutely. And when I speak andI train, I'm always thinking about don't over complicate it,start basic, Build up. If people want if people want more depth,they'll ask. But otherwise, they'll go away. Okay. Okay. I getthat. I get that. Thanks. And they they will switch off if it's
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
too complicated or if if the,you know, terminology used or even if it'ssomething, you know, loads of data or orcompliance, people will naturally switch off and then they'llfill in the gaps with what they think should be there.So Oh, classic classic example, isn't it? The, the Downing
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Street COVID daily updates,the death by PowerPoint, we've got all these experts, all thesepeople talking about stuff, you know, Boris comes on and speaks for 20 minutes,and doesn't get to the point. What you want to sayto me, Boris would come on and say look, deaths up,hospital up, missions up, infections up, right, we'vegot a problem here, this is how we're going to solve it. But he beatsaround the bush for 20 minutes and then then he doesn't land thatvery well, he's with his grasp and all these all these governmentscientists are talking through these graphs going get to the point, get to the point,I can't read dividing, you're going next IP, next IP, I'm gonna goright. So what you're saying is deaths are up, hospital admissionsare up, virus infections are up, we've got to say it now and this ishow we're gonna do it. All I I just need that in a graph, Ijust that's all I need to know. Yeah. How am I how are we gonnado this? Okay. I get it. But all this waffle is is Ithink this creating confusion because people don't understand what the message is.
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
And They've got no idea. He he's just,yeah, a disaster when it comes to public speaking, in myopinion. In my opinion, he is somebody he's atypical journalist who has got a Dictaphone and isgiving his latest copy, and then an editor willedit out all of the mumblings to make somethingimpactful for the newspaper. Yeah. I think
Joanne Lockwoodhost
the style works well when you're trying to rally the troops, you know, you're tryingto get people to to follow you and march and do something and you're tryingto inspire people. And I mean, some of his metaphors are allowedthey're really, really strange and very born out of maybe hishis public school background. That's right. When you're a leader, youneed to better you need to better still concise information and deliver it so thatso that people can understand it. Andhe's not great at that. He's used to he's used to debating societies. He's usedto, as you say, talking to press, not not sellingbad news. And he was And and tough and tough choices.Yeah. He's desperate to be liked as well. So
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
it's it's hard for him to sharebad news. It's almost as if he's waffling tomake it a little bit more palatable, but it's no use And
Joanne Lockwoodhost
the government advisers, they've got all of their spreadsheets, all of their graphs that alltheir team have been producing to their their internal documents.And these internal documents are just too much information, TMI, they need to bedistilled down into this this one ortwo points of 'right, that's this is where we are today. This iswhere we need to be. This is how we're gonna get there. Got you. Yeah.
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
This what this is what we're going to do becauseour project predictions are that if we don't, then wewon't be able to have Christmas. This is why people don't necessarily
Joanne Lockwoodhost
believe the message is because they're not being communicated in a way wherethey trust the messenger. And that's the problem, isn't it? Definitely.
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
And this comes back to the point where we're starting here about being a superstar
Joanne Lockwoodhost
communicator and speaking so you can be understood. Yes. Andrecognizing when you're you're not being understood how to adapt your style, isn'tit? Definitely. And in the case of those scientists who are
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
obviously incredibly intelligent, they've gotsome incredible information to impart. Howcan you make that easier while not having those bloody spreadsheetsand slides that you needed PhDin, PowerPoint explanationsto be able to understand breaking it down and why theircomms department hasn't done that is extraordinary.You and me need to go in there and sort them out.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I've got a friend who's a, a guy who,trains people on on producing PowerPoint slides and, up yourpresentation. David, yeah and I love the wayhe the Facebook group I think we're both a member of he, he posted histake on how the government slide should be I thought that was absolutelyincredible that, in one slide he basically summedup the entire government position of what we should be doingIn a very easy to understand, I get it. Here's here's here's where we are.Here's where we're going. This is where we need to be. Got you. Right? Iget it. I'm buying it. I'm having some of that. Andit's yeah, I think it's it's all comes back to, you know, what we're talkingabout, how to communicate better. It's not justabout vocal language, it's also aboutwritten presentation, the visual side Yes. The wholepackage of how we present data and information, isn't it? Yeah.
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
Once or twice, people have given me feedback.Oh, you you speak very in a very straightforward way.You you make everything into small easyblocks. And at first, you know, my ego thought, ohmy goodness. They don't think I'm bright. But actually, when Iyeah. They think I'm simple.I I went back to them and said, oh, do elaborate more. And they said,Jo. You make it very easy. We can just take itin. And do you think that it we canget frightened by coming across in avery straightforward way? That we feel that we needto embellish things to show that we are an expert?
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Some people may. I mean, my natural style is to use lots of similes,metaphors, and storytelling. So I I would alwaysbuild a story into the message I'm trying to create Yes.Through some sort of lived experience or something that resonates. I told youabout the Strong Opinions Weekly held and told you about that story around that. Ratherthan just put that slide up and say there we are, I want to giveyou the feeling, the impact, the understanding, so take it from your head intoyour heart type of thing, bring the emotional connection to that way youremember the feeling of that. And what all that Jo said that, whenshe explained that, that really made sense to me. So sometimespackaging it in a story because we're storytellers as aspecies, we storytell, we passed before we had TV, video andYouTube, we used to sit around the fire and tell each other stories to passdown the legacy and the history to each other through storytelling.
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
Folk song and folk Joanne is traditional one. We also have a narrative.Yes. Certainly, within content, I do a lot onstorytelling and different lengths of them,pick up literally because of the idea thatyou Joanne, it is those feelings andthose series of feelings, we all rememberhow we feel when we hear it. And that'swhat we need to so in the case of the the COVIDdaily things, if they were toadd some little stories, some little anecdotes,as opposed to those, you know, PhD leveldiagrams, then people would remember that.We know that. We we know that. Completely. Completely. Completely.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. I completely agree with that. So I'm dying to ask you before we wrapup about your your prizegiving opera singer history. Tell us a bit more about being an operasinger, I mean, I've got to ask. It was madness
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
really, I look back on the whole thingbecause what you won't know is thatI, and this is completely separate, but I was involvedin a very serious car accident with life changing injuries,spinal injury, head injury, things like that, that took a long time to getover. I'm very lucky to be able to walk and behere, actually to be alive, so I'm incredibly lucky.But I was invited to, by a friend. Whydon't you come along to one of these big choirs,to sing? So, and I as I've said before, Iwas one of those quiet people at the back, told never toshow off even though I'd been told I'd got this lovely voice, nobody at theback. So I turned up for this audition. Ihad to audition for it. And it happened that there was anow famous conductor who was on the panel. And he saidto me, Susan, you've got a remarkable voice. I really think that youshould get it trained. Now,at the time, physically and mentally, I wasn't in such a goodplace, understandably, but I did start havingsinging lessons. I didn't contact him, which now Iwould probably have done for advice. But then itbecame apparent that that I should go to music college. Andeven though I was slightly older, I got the scholarship and Iwas a jobbing singer. So I was hugely lucky with someof the things that I did. So I did roles likePamina and Michaela and Tatianaand, Mazenka, the barter brideand things like that. And it was areal privilege. I sang inthroughout UK as a soloist on the radio TV,places like Durham Cathedral, which I went to universityin Durham. So to go back there was amazing. My oldtutor was there and she said, Susan, you were very quiet at university.I can't believe it. And, overin France and Italy, I got a scholarship to study in Italyas well, and Spain and the UnitedStates. And I did concert work as well. I wasso lucky. And thenyes. And, you know, I went from that quiet kidto someone singing in front of3,000 people as a soloist with an orchestra, aconductor probably going, oh my god, everything's going wrong, and you have to be theleader toget everybody, to get the music going on. Because opera is
Joanne Lockwoodhost
all about this presence on stage and the power of thevoice, you can't be looking at somebody else, you've got all this facialexpression and concentration in it. Yes. But the
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
same for concert work. I mean, you know, it's not as extreme, but,you know, you somethingsometimes have to take over as a leader in a nonverbalway, to to reassure everybody elsewhen there are mistakes going on. Whether that'scolleagues, you know, colleague might have come in little bit lateor there was a a mistake. And and what I was taught, and Ithink it's a really good message, is you areresponsible for everything yourself. You can't go aroundblaming someone else if the the oboe comes in late or thetenor makes a mistake. And, you know,if you're in a hole, you've got to get out of it.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
That is a great lesson in life. Personal accountability. Oh, absolutely. Acceptresponsibility. If you're late, it's nobody's fault but your own, you could have leftearlier. Yeah. If you miss something, it's my fault, I could have donesomething instead. If I knew the risk of being late, I could havecaught an earlier trend, I could have come the night before, I could have donea whole lot of things in my control. Yeah. So don't blame iton this nebulous, it wasn't my fault. Yes. But actually, youcould have Joanne, you could have planned to driveearly in case you got a puncture. Yeah. You could have you could have plannedit to if there was a traffic jam, if there was something canceled, you couldhave had some contingency, you have the power to do that.Absolutely. Therefore, you can't blame it on somebody else. And it's like, no. I Iget accountability. Personal accountability is is very important. And and you
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
you know, the it it was a fellow PSA personbecause we're both in the PSA who actually said to me, you know, whatwhat you have your leadership experiencethere, and obviously I've I've I've been the leader of my music company aswell, it's quite unique and yet it isso valid within the corporate world toobecause you're very, very visible. I I'm just thinking as
Joanne Lockwoodhost
you're talking about being a singer, the way you were trainedand the performances you did, you youfound your voice. I mean, you have you had your voice and you found itand you shared it. Yeah. So you're used to you're used to having a voiceand being in front of people now. Yeah. Absolutely. And I had to push
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
myself, really push myself tobe comfortable center stage and toaccept that it was okay to get that acclaim.Jo very We we should we should carry on talking for another hour because I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I had to find my own voice about 4 years ago.And I went from a life where I was quite happy standing up in frontof people and talking and speaking after their speaking and doing otherthings to a world where I'd lost confidence in myown identity and whether I had a voicethat would be listened to. And so I went through a whole reinvention myself 4or 5 years ago and Jo to hear that you kind of emergedout this opera singing with a voice, Iremember standing up at a PSA meeting and doing the speaker factor 1year. And that was the first time I'd I'd ever stood up in front ofa group of professionals in a dress and spoke.And I okay, I crashed and burned, I wasn't that great. But Isuddenly realized what what bad felt like. And I thought I'm never gonna feel bador like that ever again. And that was it was a great learning exercise.But yeah, and I get it completely about thatanxiety of putting yourself out there when youor or anything inside you saying, I'm I'm gonna be rejected. I'm gonna, people aren'tgonna like me or I wanna I wanna hide. Yes.
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
I you know, one thing that I've learned I don't know if you'vedone the, professional, theneuroscience course. I think you might have Doctor Linda Shaw. Jo. I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I haven't done that. I I she's been she's been on the podcast actually. Shewas in episode 1. So if you'll listen to that. Well, I did it, and
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
it actually there were so many moments because,a lot of what I what I do because I do,address managing the fear. And with with the journey that I had, I'm sureyou can appreciate that I've got quite a few little tipsand tricks up the way. But doing thecourse made me realize that scientifically I was doing the right thing JoI could back it up with scientific evidence, whichis part of my values. I like to be able todemonstrate those things. But,one of the things that I find very useful for anxiety and thinking,oh, everyone's gonna hate me, you know, they're not gonna love me.You know, that little voice that's going in there, that's your ego,basically. And if you can you know this, but if youcan start saying, and I'm gonna be very theatrical and dramaticdiva like, I'm serving my audience.I'm here to share some fantastic information.And all of a sudden that little voice goes, oh, oh, myego is not being, fed now.And it it it when you're focusing on the audience and,serving them for want of a better word, it can take a lotof pressure off you. Yeah. I I agree, Kabin.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I I see myself as a a performer in away. I'm there to entertain. Yes. And throughthrough entertainment I will educate, enlighten, empower or whateverwords you want to use. Yes. But I'm there to communicatethrough my own passion and that's Jo as much as someone's an actoron the stage, a singer, a rock star, whatever they maybe, my my my delivery is is the way Ispeak, the way I inspire. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a performance.
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
Absolutely. And we mustn't forget that.I I whether it is that youare delivering a 2 minute presentation withina meeting or a seminar excuse me. Thatis a performance. Even when somebody contributes toa meeting, it's a performance.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
You are you're effectively trying to sell you and your opinion andyour beliefs so that other people will take notice orlisten or react or or instigate something as a result of it. Otherwise, yourpoint, why communicate in the first place? Yeah. And that goes back to
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
purpose.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Right. Well, we've we've come to the end, and we we could we couldliterally be talking for another hour. I'm just in danger ofstarting another part of the conversation. So maybe there's opportunity for me to cover
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
again. We could carry on. Or maybe I come on to
Joanne Lockwoodhost
your podcast and you tell us about, tell us about yourpodcast, because you've got your own podcast on your own. Yes, and you must come
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
on mine. My podcast is called Superstar Communicator,and I focus on spoken communication,different aspects of that. I often have people that comeon, that are experts intheir own field or they've been very successful in theirroles. And we talk about how spoken communicationhas aided them in their careers. Occasionally,I have, authors that comeon. One recently was a chap called FredDust, and he has written a bookcalled, and make remember it, MakingConversation. And he had some great ways ofhumanizing conversations Jo that they weren't just oneway, but it was a two wayprocess. So you could really connect with the personhere in a human way. And the most recent one that I'vehad is with a lovely lady called Elizabeth Hartley,who is deaf, talking about how we need to beaware of including people with invisibledisabilities in the conversation, what we can do to makeit easier for them to feel part of the conversation.So that's really what it is. Well, it sounds really
Joanne Lockwoodhost
interesting. So what's the best way for people to find your podcast? Isit on your website or Itunes or Well, it is on my
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
website, but also it is on Itunes and Spotify and allof the usual places. And I'd love to havefeedback from you if you've got any ideas of people that I could talkto other than Joanne, who is now coming on my podcast.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So superstarcommunicator.como.co.uk
Susan Heaton-Wrightguest
is your website? My website is superstarcommunicator.com,and I'm always happy for people to connect with me onLinkedIn as well. So that's your LinkedIn is,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
what what sure. So SusanHeatonWright.,no hyphen, Heaton, h e a t o n wr I g h t. That's right. Jo he's right, brilliant,okay. Well I'm sure you you'dwelcome people connecting and saying hi and looking you up.Well, thank you so much. There's been lots of stake inspiration there, it'sbeen a fascinating conversation as I said we could have carried on long today.So huge thank you. Also, thank you to the listeners. Thank you to thelisteners. Thank you for listening this far. Thank you for tuning in. So please dosubscribe and to keep updated with future episodes of the InclusionBites podcast, that's B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends, tell yourcolleagues, tell everybody. I have a number of exciting guestslined up that I'm sure you'll be equally inspired by over the next few weeksmonths. If you'd like to be a guest, please let meknow. And of course, I always welcome feedback suggestions on how I canimprove. Please email me at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.And finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood, and it's been an absolute pleasureto host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time.Bye.
