Joanne Lockwoodhost
Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for theInclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have been interviewing anumber of amazing people as simply having a conversation around thesubject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the worlda better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd love to join me in thefuture, then please do drop me a line tojo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. That'sS-E-E, Change Happen dot co dot uk. You'll be able tocatch up with all of the previous shows on Itunes, Spotify, and theusual places. So plug in your headphones, grab adecaf, and let's get going. Todayis episode 32 with the title standingin the middle and feeling excluded.And I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by my greatfriend, Tom Morley. Tom describes himselfas someone who is compelling, cheeky,unbelievably expensive, irreverent, but at the end of theday, value for money. And when I asked Tom todescribe his super bear, he said it is authenticityand turning up. Hello, Tom. Welcome to theshow. It's good to be here. And that
Tom Morleyguest
whole authenticity thing, you probably know this phrase, once you fake that,you got it made. But thank
Joanne Lockwoodhost
you for joining me. I know we've spoken many, many hundreds of hours over thelast lockdown months, but Jo it's beengreat. We've finally got to catch up and schedule this in. So Tom,tell me about standing in the middle of feeling excluded.
Tom Morleyguest
Well, first of all, I have to I have to fessup about the decaf because you and I have worked together.I know you wouldn't go near decaf.So, I prepared for this by making myself a real full cafe.So, if I, yeah,rein me in if I go a bit too far at anypoint. So Bounce off the walls. Yes. Yeah.Standing in the middle. I'm still feeling excused excluded,refers to, being theyoungest child in a family, youngest of4 boys. And the other 3 always Lockwood like agang to me, you know, fully formed gang. Andbecause, I mean, this happens to the 4th child. You have tolook for a role. And I was naturally sort of quiteanyway. So and encouraged by my mom, I'd say,you thought she could, move me into the area ofgraphic design, I could make some money. We were a poor family.So she thought, last, I've had a child who could make us some money.So that kind of excluded me even more from the gangs. They thought Iwas kinda namby pamby while they were, you know,building camps and falling out of trees and stuff.So when I when I grew up, I thought, right.I looked around and I thought, right. If I become a vocalharmony facilitator thatI look I could see you stand in the middle of the circle and youdivide the the group into 3 and you teach this groupand then teach that group and you teach all different parts. Now we're looking atyou all the time. So I thought that I'mbound to be included then. I'll not only be included, I'll be the leader.But the the there was a a quirk. I tooka drum with me and I used to lead with the drum.And then everybody said, oh, great. That drummingthing was great. When you come back, can you bring the drums? And Isaid, this is vocal harmony. It's it's it's not about drums. Just200 people, one drum. Right? And me, the leaderin the middle. They said, yeah, we love the drumming. Bring the drums.So eventually, it was like, Polanskiis the tenant, you know, when you you kinda get moved tobe this person that everyone wants you to be. So I bought200 drums and, gave me out. They all loved it.And but the trouble was with that, at the end of the session,they all kind of loved me and everything, but they went to the bar andI ended up loading the van and missing all the jokes and allthe humor. And, and then by the time I got to the bar, they're allleaving. Bye, Tom. Great session. SoI kinda discovered that I couldn'tengineer physically a way of being in thegang. I had to kind of join the gang,by being I mean, that's why authenticity comes into it inthe intro. I found that, if I was authentic,I didn't have to trick it 200 people into looking at me. Ijust hang out, you know, and say, I'm abit fed up about this or this went wrong or that went rightor and, and, actually,man, I could save myself so many years of training,to impress people because, nobody really needs to do that. Youjust need to say, oh, you know, I'm feelinga bit down today. Oh, come over here, mate. Tell me about it.It's all you need to do.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I love the way you said, that you you were kind of youhad this vision about this, yeah, as you said, vocal harmony facilitator.Now that sounds such a great role, vocal harmony facilitator and I've never comeacross that. But it cast me back to the days as a young person, youknow, sitting around the campfire and you do those rounds, you know, London's burning,London's burning and it all starts at different times and you try and get itthat harmony going. So I really I really took took me right to that pointin my life and with with some fond memories. But isn't it incrediblesometimes that despite our best efforts, the thing we want tobe proud of relate to, they relate to something youjust it's incidental like your drum, you know, this is who you were thisvocal harmony facilitator and suddenly you become the drummer that it'slike almost like forcing you to be someone you weren't trying tobe. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, the I mean,
Tom Morleyguest
my brothers all,moved into the furniture business. They made a lot of money in antiques. Theywere moving furniture all around the world, you know?And, and that my joke was, well, youpeople, you get everybody and sit, everybody's sitting down.I'm gonna get everybody standing up. So all my groups always get them standingup. And then when I bought the drums, thatkinda African wooden, drums with these beautifulhats on, you know, covers in this beautiful African materialand string, and they're really lovely things. And I turn up at theseposh venues as the facilitator, and the door peep wouldsay, oh, are they the new bar stools? You should goaround the back, mate, and bring them in the, good tensions. Jo,again, I was, you know, and,you know, they used to drive or they still do, you know, drive furniture aroundthe country. I'm not doing that. I end up driving these drums up and downmotorways, you know, nearly going out. I I mean, I could swapstories with them about how I was falling asleep at the wheel.I was meant to be jetting around the world, you know,with, nothing but some songs in my headteaching people vocal harmony. So,yeah, it's it's been a disaster.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So do you think that people kind of labelling you as thetrades person because you were the lugger? Because that's one of theinevitable things when you're the one that's setting up the kit, doing all this. Youyou it's almost like this seeing you as the as the hired help rather thanthe the main cause, aren't they? Yeah. I mean, there there is,
Tom Morleyguest
there's an element of, you know, kindof prophecy in it, that what you're trying to run awayfrom just follows you around. And like I say,when I don't try, then,I just connect with people anyway, but I've kinda burden myselfwith 300 drums. I mean, luckily,just before just before lockdownproper, I knew I was gonna be working online becauseI could see it coming. So I I unloaded the van andI've got it as a backdrop in my studio here, all the drumspiled up. And everyone said, why don't you use green screen? But 3 dayslater, some vandals, who normallyjust knit mopeds and set them alight in the,local churchyard decided to nick 1 and set the lightagainst our van. So it blew up in themiddle of the night and we got these messages from the neighborssaying, there appears to be a van on fire. It looks a bitlike yours. I hope you hope it'salright, but I'd taken all the drums out. So,maybe maybe I shouldn't have taken them out, cometo think of it. I should have just left them in there, got an insurancemoney, and then said to people, it's vocal harmony fromnow on. Sorry. Damn. Ithwarted my fate.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Alright. Just talk about, you know, some of your life in general. You you've gota quite striking appearance and your lookis very you. Do you find that that's ever led youto be judged or excluded or do you find the opposite?
Tom Morleyguest
Well, yeah, both judged andexcluded and included. I mean, the whole thingabout anybody who's a rebel,or, you know, visually a rebel or they speak like a rebel,What they're really doing, is they are trying tomove away from the mediocrityof normal life, which they would,you know, obviously not like.And there there's a small tribe of people you canjoin. It's why a lot of bands meet at art school.It's, you know, when I first went to art school in the foundation year, Iwas dismally, kindadisappointed because it was just like an extended 6th form. Now,I thought I was gonna be with Salvador Dali andpeople, you know, kind of budding surrealists or dadapeople, but they're all people going, yeah. I quite like,Magritte. I'm gonna do my version. So but then when Igot to Leeds, Leeds Polytechnic is where I met Green and we formedScript League. That that now theythey really were proper artists. You know, a lot of us,we are a whole kind of cohort ofrebels. Part partly because it was the freest course in thecountry. It was just like big warehouse and you had tofight for space, with the 2nd 3rdyears. And so it was, it was a real kindof growing up. All the tutors weren't interested enough. They justwanted to do their own work, except maybe someone like Jeff Nuttallwho's a situationist. He's dead now, but a lovely guy.And he would just come around and challenge us sometimes. Jo that's rubbish. That'sbrilliant. Publish it. Why are you doing that?So, yeah, we grew up fast there. And alsonobody, nobodyencouraged us to say, well, it's Monday. What are yougonna do this week? I mean, that wouldn't occur to them. So wehad we had to say, it's Monday. What am I gonna do this week?I've got all these resources. Because in those days,you could you could get, money to docrazy things from the college itself. We we got grantsfrom the government. We got our rent paid. We got, you know,so we were really free. I mean, we didn't know howlucky we were. There was just a point in historywhen that was encouraged, you know, kind of creativitywas really encouraged. And nobody said, What are you gonna do with thiswhen you leave? They just said, go andinfluence, you know, be an influence in the world. Be a good influence whether you'rea sculptor, painter, performer.You know, it was a it was a different time. We can believe it.It's probably only 10 years after we left art school. The, theRoyal College was saying, we're gearing ourselves to whatindustry needs. And we're looking, what? How can you callyourself an art school?
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I mean, picking up on something you just said there, which I find really, reallyresonates is this,you know, you basically said you can't keep everybody happy, you can't please everybody.And it always resonates for me where it's better toengage 1 person than to have a 100 followers who aren'tengaged. It's that meaningful connection that you want.So motivating and engaging your tribe, your cohort, whatever resonates withyou is actually far better than trying to keep everybody happy because if you keepeverybody happy, nobody's happy in my experience. At least you're better off with halfthe world loving you. Yeah. Well, half. I
Tom Morleyguest
mean, I've, I said to my wife who whothinks sometimes I'm on social media too much. I said,well, look, I, I am ridiculouslyexpensive. I I need to engage those people who aregonna pay, and they don't all know about me, so Iwill just tell the whole world what I'm doing all the time. 99%of people will hate me. 1% will love me. Nought point noughtpoint naught point 1 percent will employ me, but they'll pay me somuch, that, it'll get us through the year justfine. And Jo, yeah, and and at first, I wantedeverybody to love me when I was a kid, but, man, is that, youknow, that thatthat's a fool's, what is it?Fools' fools game. Aaron, yeah. People do it.Fool's game. Yeah. It's not winnable game, isn't it? You It's not winnable game.Yeah. It and, advertising willsuggest you can do it if you buy this product or,or buy into this brand or you get this and you get that andyou get that. And then everyone gets to 35, 40.They're absolutely exhausted, and nobody caredanyway. You know?
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. I think one of the things I hear a lot of people talk aboutin the inclusion world is that this this deadlockof feeling like you have to include everybody, how to include everybodyin this. And I think in order to break that down, you have torecognize that not everybody it can be included.And as long as you're fair, you're respectful, you're givingpeople equality of opportunity and you're giving people dignitythen there isn't really a lot you can you can do fair than that.And some people may not be suitable. They may not have the capability, may nothave the interest. And I I I say it's perfectlyvalid for a brand to say, I cater forvery thin affluent women in our sportswear line, and thisproduct isn't for you. In the same way that when you're an artist, you youproduce music or entertain, you know full well that noteverybody is gonna be happy with that. And you go, well, fine. That doesn't matter.I've got I've got people who love me for what I am, and that's that'sthe authenticity side, isn't it? Yeah. And I think that,
Tom Morleyguest
what you're describing is is a kind of utopiawhere, the brand that caters forthe thin, affluent white people,is kind of seen as such as that is a very smallminority. And the rest of you were doing your clothes overhere, your style over there, and there's no judgment between them.However, it's set up differentlyand advertising probably understandspsychology more than most. So it'sthe whole thing about FOMO is,has just got crazy now. So I mean, the itwhen when they started airbrushing photographs longbefore Photoshop, when they used to airbrushphotographs with a real airbrush, you know, in a proper lap and itwould take hours, hours and hours to extend the model's legsor bring their, hips in or something. Now, of course, everyonecan do it on their phones, but they spend a lot ofmoney doing that. And in a deliberateway to exclude people, butsay, however, you won't feelexcluded if you buy this product or you get on thisdiet or you follow this plan or you so so it's all,I mean, the the whole of western culture is based onexclusion, deliberately, say, can sellers, productsand division, divide and rule. So it tobe a rebel and why people endup in art schools or communes or bandsor gangs even. You know? It's so it's to try and get awayfrom that, manipulation. Say, no.We're setting up a alternative camp over here. But the trust troubleis, as Jamie Will talks about this,in a much more eloquent way than I do, he says there's 4stages. There'll be Andy Warhol's factoryproper, you know, or studio 54 proper. And then, andthen it gets kinda watered down, and a few more people are allowed to getin. And then it becomessomething where you can go, oh, I'm drinking out of aglass that Whitney Houston might have drunk out of onmy stag night or my Hindu. And,and then it just becomes commercialized. So every rebeloutpost becomes commercialized eventually, but youjust then have to move on. The the the concern Ihave for this country, the UK,with, Brexit and the kind of shutting downof funding for a lot of projects, both science and artprojects because we can't get, European funding anymore,is that the more sensitive rebelswho would need or the more sensitive artists, I'll stopcalling them rebels, creatives, whowould need, the support of a group and thesupport of a group that had maybe premiseskind of some kind of infrastructure that you could join with allthose being destroyed. So,you know, like, kind of local theaters can be sold offto become luxury flats. I I I'mcompletely neutral here, politically.But, so that's gonna happen. It's gonna happen becauseof Brexit. It's be it's gonna happen because of COVID. Jo,consequently, people who would have benefitedfrom those local resources, arts resources, aregonna have a harder time now. I'm kinda lucky. I'd I've built someresilience. I've learned some CBT techniques.I I have my kinda gang,and, I'm recognized as such, but it's takendecades for me to get to that position. I feel really sorryfor for young people who are coming through, and,there isn't really a lot to support them. As I said, you know, wewe got grants that we never had to pay back, and that and that washard enough. But to, I don't knowhow the, the arts in this country are gonna survive. I I think thespirit will survive, but
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. I mean, you're saying that that you've you've got an inner resilience.How did you find that? Was it something that was always there or you reallyhad to sort of use these CBD techniques or use other techniques todevelop it or were you always able to rest back on it because you knewit was there under the covers?
Tom Morleyguest
I think I had to have 3 nervousbreakdowns, which kind ofrelied on being depressed for a year eachtime. These were about 10 years apart. And,at the bottom of each, I mean, you do hit the bottom there.Anybody's been that low knows you do hit the bottombecause if you don't, you never come back. So and at,hitting the bottom of this kind of, there's akind of you sense something. It's terrible. It'sdark. You never think you're coming back. But Ialways had this thing and it was about harmony and itwas about the groove. It was about rhythm.There was nothing else there. And as Icame back,because that had been the thing that was there, it kindof expanded a bit more each time I came back. Jo,so any other lies, nonsense,political shenanigans, da da da, it all just sort became backgroundnoise to the groove and harmony. Soso now I know I mean, who knows? I'd I'velearned a lot of techniques, so I'll never get depressed again. Butwho knows? If if I do, it it's stillgonna be there, you know, and, and I'll come back and I'll beolder and I'll be wiser. And there'll be even less kind ofdetritus of what I should be doing or what I should besaying or who I should be talking to. And it will be me in thegroove. And there's enough people who wannaplay and dance and sing in harmony inthe world. And there I'll be in the middle.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Creating the groove and the harmony. Yeah. And, really? Yeah. Leadingleading the leading the yeah. Absolutely. And I'll do it
Tom Morleyguest
authentically, because it's now, youknow, if it's it's almost like I'm a hologram of myself, boughtof groove and harmony and there's lots ofspace and it flickers a bitsometimes, but that's all that's there. You know, when Ifirst did it, there was a per there was a kind of scared person inthe middle of going, oh, I hope everybody loves me because, I make them feelso good and their bodies are getting flooded with chemicals and they're all feelgood chemicals. And, you know, so I so I knew theI knew the formula to look like the magician, but I really I I wasthe wizard that was, you know, now I'm just a wizard.You know, my own wizard. Don't
Joanne Lockwoodhost
don't look behind the curtain. Yeah. Well, well, there there is no curtain. You
Tom Morleyguest
You know, that that's the thing. They they burn.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
When you're talking there about, yeah, hitting the right bottom, I Jo way you believethat I have been clinically depressed or to apoint where that would be a diagnosis. But I've I've certainlybounced off the bottom of well I've as deep as I can getand several times in my life things have felt like the endof the world. 4 or 5 years ago I was going through aphase of my life where I couldn't get out of bed, I was breakinginto tears all the time, I hadn't I couldn't plan more than 5 minutes aheadsort of thing. What do I wanna do later? Well, I don't know. I'm notsure what I wanna do now kind of thing. And it was Yeah. I rememberlying in bed with the world just going Joanne and round in circles, there's noanswers, no get off, there's no way of solving any problem. And I rememberwaking up one morning and just saying I am. I'm goodenough. I'm valid. Who I am is okay. And Ididn't need to answer all the questions that were going around in my head. Ialmost like said well, I'm not brushing them under the carpet, I'm just saying Idon't need to answer that because I am. I don't justify thatand that that got me out of bed. And I thinkthat that experience 4 or 5 years ago, unlocked someof resilience, which I probably had all my life, but now I can fall backon it consciously knowing that it's there and it's there tosave me if you like. And I I think when COVID hit last year,for me, it was just a case of, okay, have mycry, have my readjustment, have my pity party for a few days.And right, okay, what's my technique? My technique is going, well, I've done thisbefore. I can do it again. And okay, I appreciate it's aprivilege that I have that many people don't but I was able to bounce backknowing that I was I could do it because I believed inmyself. I magic stuff out of nowhere. I can do it again,I think. So that's that's kind of the resilient techniques I useand it's amazing how you can almost do that on aday by day basis because we all go through these little micro highs, microlows we don't really appreciate. And I think I mentioned to you earlier that thisweek I haven't had as many sales calls or raised as many invoicesI had the previous week. So, therefore, my brain is telling me that I'm I'mless happy because all those chemicals that were making me feeleuphoric last week have disappeared this week, so I'm crashing and burning.So I've just got to look myself in the mirror and Jo, nothing's Joanne. Nothinghas changed in the world. You're just going through this down cycle and you justgot to ignore it and bounce off and go, well, next week, I'm gonna feelgreat again. And it's learning that, isn't it? And knowing that that bounceback ability will happen if you keep on. Yeah.
Tom Morleyguest
And I think we are speaking. I just wanna be clearhere that both you and I are speaking, you know,living in one of the still one of the richest countries in theworld and we're professionals and, youknow, our houses are not gonna disappear.There's there's gonna be water in the tap and the kettle's probablygonna work. So, so we have theluxury of saying, well, if I get depressed, Iwill still have a roof over my head. A lot a lot of peopledon't in the world. So so I wouldn't say,my formula of having a breakdown is gonna work for everybodynor would I recommend it. But, itdoes, as you say, it does and we we have theluxury of reading books about saying, just be in thepresent. And, actually, it sounds like what you're talking about. And I'vetalked to my wife about this recently because sometimes I get,visited by an avalanche of regret. And then I justI don't process it anymore in the kind of CBT way, which I'dI'd have to sit down for 3 hours and do all these exercises. I'd justgo, yeah. Well, that's, you know, who's that for? Who's that avalanchefor? It's not affecting anybody else.It's it's in the past. You know,who's who's who's kind of in charge of this? And I'm gonna just go, well,thank you, Avalanche. I'm just gonna listen to the birds singing.And really, it's not avoidance. It's not spiritual bypass.It's just a choice to Jo, well, yeah, all that's going on isgoing on for a lot of people all the time.But that is what, what those guysI I think, or they talk about enlightenment is it is, you know, the yout you you study, you study, you study with the master andeventually the master just thwacks you around ahead and goes, thosestudies were for nothing except for this thwack. Now be in thepresent. And you go, oh, I said what it was all for. Yeah. That's whatit was all for. I remember doing a workshop with aguy called Chuck Spazano once when I was quite down, and afriend of mine took me there. And he, ChuckSpazana is kind of spiritual leader in a way, but he was also bitlike a used car salesman. Lovely guy, American guy.He was about 60 of us there for for a weekend inLondon. And it's Friday night, and he said, so you'vecome on the happiness course. Let me tellyou the short way to do this course. And hejust stood there and he said, are you happy?And we all sat there and he said, that's it. We said, what? Andhe said, oh, you want the complicated version. Alright, everybody.Who had trouble with their parents growing up? And then we spentthat two and a half days processing everybody, goingthrough this. And then at the end, he said, okay, buddy,be happy. And then having processed it all, we we knew what he wastalking about. But, that option isalways available to us, but we've been soconditioned that that isn't available to us. We haveto do all this complicated stuff. We have to you know, I know I keepcoming back to Deal with it. We have to deal with it. Deal with it.Deal with it. Deal with it. Yeah. Process it. Go through this therapy. Go throughthat therapy. Stop eating this. Stop eating that. Start eating this.Take more vitamins. You'll never get there unless you do this. Youknow? It's a, there there's there's a guy.I was gonna say if you listen to this podcast and you're a CBT practitioner
Joanne Lockwoodhost
or you're you've got qualifications of this and you wannayou're shouting at the at the PC right now, Gaye, you don't know nothing. Well
Tom Morleyguest
Well, let me We're not we're not practitioners in any way. We're just
Joanne Lockwoodhost
experience stuff, isn't it? CBT has saved my life.
Tom Morleyguest
I I I really if you look on my,on my website,and, really, I did process everything for6 months every day, every day, every day untilI processed a lot of what wewe then called, mind talk. You know? They call it selftalk, monkey mind chatter.You do have to do it, but the but the annoying thingis you do have to do it, but then, you get to a pointwhere you go, oh, I didn't have to do all that. But you have todo it in order to get to the point where you think I didn't haveto do it. It's it's, it's like the,as I say, you know So you achieve mastery. You get to the practitioner phase,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
don't you? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. You have You become the masterof of that technique. And therefore, you, yeah, go direct to the end.You you you've done the graft. You've you've done the wax on, waxoff and the, all this sort of thing so you've become the sort of likethe, yeah, the the Jedi or or the,the Dojo master or something, wherever you are. Yeah. So you've done the time. Iget that. Yeah. And then when you get there, you,
Tom Morleyguest
you think, oh, but everyone said enlightenmentwas, when everything wouldbe fantastic all the time, you know, and you wouldn't have toworry. You wouldn't get any bills. You wouldn't. It's not. It'sit's, you know, yeah. You feel you're there,but, you're living in the real world and that'sother, I often say the people, you know, run the business and Joanne in yourown business. It's, it is,far tougher road to enlightenment than sitting in theHimalayas for 20 years. You know, letting your beard growor I don't know what the equivalent would be for a woman,But, you know, just kinda not looking after yourself.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Shaving your legs for a couple of years probably. Yeah.
Tom Morleyguest
We're gonna get into trouble here. So yeah. But, I meanbut, basically, not kinda tending, your bodyin any way, but just kinda concentrating on the inside, theinside, the inside. Yeah. That's not what we're here for.What's what's the point of living in a world if you're not gonna live ina world? You know, you can you can get all thatwhen you're dead, all that thing thereafter, youknow, and and we're here to influence each other. I mean, crikey,the the world will fall down if we all, just wentmeditating. Well, actually Lockwood wouldn't.Let's all go and meditate in the Himalayas and let the animals get on withit. I think that's probably the answer.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
It might have a an impact on Gillette's, stock price if we don't.
Tom Morleyguest
Love you. They're gonna be shaving their beard off for a while.Yeah. So we're
Joanne Lockwoodhost
a year into Lockwood. You know, we've 23rd March isis kind of in the UK when, we we got the thebroadcast from Boris telling us that to stay at home protect the NHS tosave lives where that all started almost only afew weeks away from that anniversary. So youwere your business, your life was kind of based aroundbeing present in rooms full of people, facilitating,enlightening, empowering, activating people. And that must have been areal kind of nudge or knock thatyou've you've you've found a year it's a year ago. Sowhat what was going through your mind at the time? You know, what was goingthrough the mind of a of someone who was in that environment and whatdid you how did you find yourself, I don't know, movingforward from that? I was a bit concerned
Tom Morleyguest
because,I'm, unfortunately, I followed in thefootsteps of my father who was really lousy at openingthe mail. And in those days,my mom would open it if it was red. If a bill wasred, she'd open it. And somehow, we were poor, but she'd have squirreledaway some money, to pay the redbills.When COVID hit, I I hadn'topened it. They don't they don't send red red bills anymore. They sendblack and white ones. Jo I had opened the mail and I opened a aletter. I own a little well, I used to own a little, pad,kind of rock star pad in Central London, which was part of myincome, renting it out. And they said, we're repossessing yourflat. Basically, I hadn't you you know, I could have paid, butI just missed some payments. So they repossessed it. AndI said, well, that'd be good. There'll be about a 100 grand equity, you know,that swings and roundabouts. But the lawyers somehowcarved up all the equity amongst themselves. I mean,the one point they were charging me through a mistake of theirs. Theycharged me some of the £2,000 a day interest on theloan. So I lost all that money. As I say, thethe the van got burned. Myincome was based on or my work was based on gettingpeople to drum in harmonies, in rhythm, singingharmony, drum in rhythm. And, Ineeded a place far away from the workplacein order that people would feel safe to do that. Now,yeah, online, because of the latency issue, wecan't drum in time. So everyone's out of time. We can't sing inharmony because everyone sounds terrible. I don't know if you ever tried to singhappy birthdays. It's like, you know, do that anddrum. It sounds like sheds falling down in a storm.And the whole security of doing thisout the comfort zone stuff in a venue faraway from the workplace had gone too. Everyone was at home with thedog watching, kids watching, spousessaying, is that what you do at work? And so, itwas a complete disaster for me as far asmy skills went. But I thought, well, what are the outcomes?The team bonding, doing something togetherthat's different, you know, seems impossible.And, not that I'd advertise it this way, but,change in their neurochemistry by, you know, getting up andmoving and, feeling different, doing somethingdifferent, you know, wearing a pair of sunglasses on Zoom. It's reallysimple stuff. So I just started playing their music,from my laptop, which at that time is a 2015MacBook, and sharing my computer sound andgetting them to dance and, and move and bang 2pens together or sticks. Now because they're all mutedand they were only listening to music I was playing them,they heard the music. They heard themselves playing along to the music, sothey were in time. And the amazingthing was and this was the paradigm shift for me that kindahas sustained me through this year. Everyone's out of timetogether. So if I play them a track at a 130 beats per minute,some people will be putting their hand in the air. Some people would be puttingtheir head back. Some are you know, so it's it's been a kind ofchoreography that would have been insanely expensiveto, design as a theater piece, butit's happened by chance. So thatis very exciting. It's very exciting to facilitate, and it's veryexciting for them to be part of. So and I can do thatglobally. I, you know, I do global events. I don't have to driveanywhere. You know, the biggestjourney I do is from the kitchen to the studio. It's on the 3rdfloor carrying 2 wooden spoons. You know, so I do charge fortransport and equipment. But,that is, you know, it's I I can do these kind of universally,successful events. And everybody says,like, as before where I started, that drumming sessionwas fantastic. They're not playing any drums.Somehow, it's because I've got drums in the backgroundand I might play one drum. Although now I tend to just play,chopsticks or something and get them to play. But there's drums on the on thetracks I play them.Jo, so as far as I know this wasn't inyour question, and, you know, that is the beginning of it, but the end ofit is I think, whenBryce kinda announces we'recoming out of lockdown as they're starting to do now, the main thingI hear from people, not just in the business, but fromeveryone is kind of anxiety because they know it'snot gonna be the same going back to work. Everything'sthe same and everything's different. And if we talkedabout inclusion here, and exclusion,everyone's going to be thinking, you know, what is the rightprotocol? Do we go back? And it's almost like, abereavement. You don't you don't know what to say, you know, when someone'sdied or or more than one person's died. Youknow, what do you what do you say when you get back to the office?The office is exactly the same. The coffee machine's in the sameplace. The work is the same.It's we we are gonna go throughsomething. Well and it it there was never beenthrough it. I suppose it will be like, the end of the warin a way, the second World War. My mom and dad met him.And my my grand told me a lot about the war.It's gonna be like that. We're we're Joanne Jo, oh, we're back.It's, now what do we do? So I'd and mymanagers are encouraging me to which I'm designing now, youknow, kind of not calling them rituals, butexercises that we can do back in the office to do a checking in, youknow, forming a circle, and,just ways to sort of reintegrate ourselves into the workplace. It'sgonna be massive. It's really, one of the biggestthings of of this, well, thiscentury so far. It's gotta be.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Oh, I completely agree. And even before we get actually step footin the workplace, we've got to get to the workplace sitting on thetrain for 2 hours with a mask on because I can't see masksdisappearing overnight, there's still going to be some restrictions you knoweven we're going to be cautious about walking too close to each other, we're goingto be cautious on escalators but we want to pack ourselves on theWaterloo and City line anymore nose to nose, bumper to bumper,are we going to be cramming ourselves in pubs anymore? So I think we'vekind of got used to having space around us and are we ready to sortof give our personal space back and share it again? And I thinkthere's there's a whole load of anxieties as you say that are yet tocome. I think any workplace that isn't starting theirworkplace workforce planning around reintegration,100 of thousands of people have been onboarded into an organization where they've nevermet the people and they've never even been to the physical office. So there'sa whole load of people out there that we need to bring, make part,include, will we havescreens up still? Yeah. It's yeah. The supermarkets aren'tgonna suddenly take down all the perspex on the 21st June.The banks aren't going to suddenly change this, we're not going to get rid ofall of those hand sanitising machines everywhere, because there'llstill be this risk of return. You know, we're not out of thewoods. We may be in fact stated, but we don't know what's gonna goon. They even talk about potential flare up everywinter and every winter we're going to have to have some levelof social distancing, mask wearing, sanitization, Joanne space, face,whatever we want to call it for the foreseeable until itbecomes a part of history and it's just eventually just fadedout. Jo, yeah, I completely I completely get it. Yeah. Workforceplanning, the work yeah. How wetransport and and travel, how we socialize, everything ischanging. Cater with that with theYeah. Women account working from home, you know, there's a lot of genderinequality in the workplace, working from home, there's a lotof social divide around internet have not have internet technology, not havetechnology. There's a whole load of different experiences people have. They're goingto, as you say, come back and grieve over this yearyear, isn't it? Yeah. And and you imagine I mean,
Tom Morleyguest
one of the things I'm suggesting in a verysimple kinda movie I'm I'm making,is, you know, as a tip, you know, to to get back, which iswhat musicians do and it's what theater groups do.At the beginning of the day, you know, every every day,actually, if they're working on a show or working on a production, is you getin a circle, you make sure the circle is circular for astart. And it it thisis interesting because on Zoom, thehierarchy of the company is gone. We're all in the samebox, you know, in the same size.The CEO doesn't have a bigger box on Zoom, a bigger picture.So, forming the circle and being in the circleis, you know, it will emulatethat a little bit. And also the whole thing about being on muteand not, you know, and unmuting yourself thathas been going on in circles of performers and artistsfor, probably centuriesthat, you you speak, you have a timeto speak where which might be, you know,time by timekeeper. 1 minute, 2 minute. You sharehow exactly how you're feeling authentically. You don't go, I'mfine. You know, COVID's been a bit annoying, but actually,I'm fine. You just go, you know, you,as much grief can come out or as much positivity or as muchhope can come out in that time. And then nobodysays, oh, yeah. I feel like that. Or, you shouldn't feelthat bad. Oh, let's go for a coffee. Yeah. You you're not allowed to sayanything like that. You go on to the next person. They speak. They're the greattime. Next person speaks. Their grandfather died.You know, da da da. You go around, but you build thiskinda circle of trust, and then you goon and you live for that day. And then when you come back thenext day, someone else might have gone down. Someone else might come up,but gradually you build this,yeah, it it's, kind of circle of vulnerability,but,support, you know, and, and, and we we're gonna needto do those sorts of things because if we just go back andgo, oh, yeah, anyone Jo to Starbucks? You know,it's, other coffees available, but theit's just, it's it's gonna be adisaster as I Iknow, you know, might as well mention this, but, my mom diedwhen I was 13 and, at that point,I thought the adults in the world knew everything.I I wasn't even told she was dying. I was just told she'dshe's she died last night. Sorry to have to tell you.And nobody knew how to cope with it. Nobody phoned myschool. Nobody. If a name was spoken, people gotembarrassed. I mean, it was itwas like living in this crazy world all of a sudden whennobody knew anything that the, the, theillusion that adults could runthings was taken from it. And I think if we try togo back to work and we don't acknowledge, like, we didn'tacknowledge my mom's death. If we don't acknowledge, what COVIDhas done, even to the point of, youknow, simple things like you're saying, like, not being able to get into higher heelsanymore because our feet have expanded. That's just the men.You know, the there'll be all sorts of things that wecan't do anymore or don't wanna do anymore. We've got to talkabout them and we've got to restructure accordingly becausethis is the paradigm shift that extinction rebellion were talkingabout, where everyone said that can't that it don't becrazy. We can't stop the planes flying. We can'tstop commuting. You're mad, dear people.Think of Pauline on the checkout. Think of poor Pauline, you know, notbeing able to get to work. Pauline haven't gone to work for a year. Thethe world hadn't ended. You know? So it's been delivered tous. We can we can now change. Will we?You know? That would be I would love that kind ofinclusion to go, yeah. Alright. We're all in the sameboat. You know, the Tories talk talk about it as if we are, but we'renot we're not in their posh posh boat where there nothingchanges for them. Now, like I said, completely,neutral politically, but they do rather annoy me sometimes.So let's all be in the same boat, and let's say, yeah, thisis an opportunity. We didn't see it coming. Let'stry I mean, they're already taken apart all the jumbo jets,so we can't go back to that kind of,flying around the world all the time because we're scared ofhitting the wrong button on Zoom. So we'd rather go to a meeting.We've been trained. We're returning to a completelydifferent world and we have to acknowledge that, andwe have to work with the advantages of it.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Oh, certainly. Oh, yeah. I'm when I talk to a lot of my my clientsand customers there, there's a lot more emphasis on storytelling,lived experience, understanding people, people beingvulnerable and it's accepted that people can bevulnerable now because as you say, we've all lived through the samestorm. Our boats, some of us have engines, some of us thesails are broken, etcetera. So we're different boats. But we we we have gotthis kind of shared experience where weknow that what what's going on in someone's mind. We we can we can veryeasily say when we meet someone online or wherever thathow's it going for you? How's Lockwood been? So we've got this commontheme other than the weather to talk about for the first timein British history or the war.So I think it is. I think it's really important as you say to keeptelling these stories, not let the dead die invain, not let the people who have suffered suffer in vain. Yeah.Not understanding the social inequities, you know, theimpact of, social low social immigrantgroups and their susceptibility to dying of COVID because of the environmentthey're living in. We're gonna unpack this, we gotta put it on the table andsay what this now we shall not propagate this, we've gotta learn from this.And that's I I hoping that the population, thepeople will tell these stories, and we won't let,if you like, the the ruling class, the government, the privilegedtry and revert us back and to where we were and just tellit, oh, forget about it. We'll just carry on. Here's some cash. Get on withit. I hope we do put those taken away and say, no, we're not goingback. Let's keep what we've learned.Tell those stories. Because if we don't,all we've done is people died for nothing. Yeah. Absolutely.
Tom Morleyguest
And and we can tell those stories in different ways. I recently sawadmittedly on social media, it was just ameme, But it had,had the the the nations who'd donebest in, in COVID times, you know,as far as protecting the population and the nations that have doneworst. And you can imagine, gender wise,all the nations who'd done best were run by women.All the nations who did worst were run by men. Imean, it's that simple. So what does that tell us?I wonder whether, given that we'vebeen ruled by men for a long time nowclaiming they knew what they were doing. They didn't. You know? Thewomen knew. Why don't we just say, okay, boys.You've had your time. We're just gonna give it to thewomen for the next 10 years. I mean, really, if I if I was headof the United Nations and I had any power, that's what I woulddo. I'd say, you know, maybe they'll make some mistakes,but crikey, they can't make any worse mistakes than the menwho just, you know, cronyism has runrife. I mean, they've, it's beenembarrassing the way the world has responded, really.Especially the men. I I feel I Ioften feel ashamed ofmy gender and the way they behave, you know, and they just assumepower. It's, I mean, they're idiots andand women know how to handle crisis, you know, but if I wannabe general about it.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Oh, for sure. I completely agree that what we need to do is startvaluing different personality attributes in differentways. So when we think about empathy, emotionalconnections, I'm not saying we stereotype womenand saying all they have is empathy and emotional connections or saying there arefem what we would consider feminine traits or what we consider masculine traits andwe always seem to value masculine traits andbig, loud, boisterous, overly confident tends torule the world. And what we need to look is look at the meritocracy. Lookat what makes up the meritocracy, look at what makes someone valuableand start to value different attributes and skillsthat many men have, but they're they're they're they'reoften, submerged because they hide them, they cover themin order to fit in with the with their colleagues. And there areskills that women have that are valuable. And sometimes theythey they mask them in order to fit into the male world. So I thinkby looking at the different elements of meritocracy, looking at different personalitiespeople have, they're really analyzing what skillsand we need in the roles of business leaders, politicians, world leaders,or whatever that may be. Mhmm. And we we don't try and make this genderbias balance saying, well, men had it men tried and got it wrong, thereforewomen have a go. What we need to look at is what are the bestattributes of the leaders that we want to see andencourage those behaviors in our in our in our children. Wenurture that through schools. We create that environment where we'rebreeding better or rounded human beings that aren't necessarily categorizedby gender or by race or by color or whatever that may be. And that'sthat's the challenge of building this equitable society with the social justice,isn't it? I'm being too, black and white in in talking
Tom Morleyguest
about it in gender terms. Yeah. But, Isometimes have to play the devil's advocate to to get the conversation done. Butthe but you're right. But it's so if we take JacindaArdern, you know, on one kind of,end of the spectrum about how the govern where shesays, well, GDP isn't, themain thing, of New Zealand. That's not whatwe're going for. We're not gonna go for continuous growth, which isthe basis of capitalism. She says, we'rewe're gonna go for the the emotional well-being and the healthof the whole population. You know, That is seenas revolutionary. Well, it's not really, is it, if you were to run atribe? And then on the other side, you have thesepantomime dames, you know, Boris and,what's his name? Trump. You know? He he could notbe, more exaggerated,examples of stupidity, greed, vanity,and absolute kind of desolation as far as emotionalintelligence goes. So we have these examples now. And,yeah, and you're right. They're not male and female. They're just,attitudes really to to getting things done. I mean, that's allpoliticians do. Yes. We give them their money. They get things done or theydon't get them done. So, so Ithink you're right, but let's look around and let's not go,let's draw a line in the sand. COVID's gone. Hooray. Let's all havea party. Let's have a, you know, history or what what was it theytalking about? Festival of Brexit. Yeah. Let's get street party,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
put put the big tables out, get our flags out, and Yeah. SingBritannia because that's Yeah. And let's And let's stop being
Tom Morleyguest
negative and mentioning COVID and, you know, the 100 of1,000 that died, you know, through mismanagement.I mean, it's it's it it will happen, you know,will happen. They'll try, but but we mustresist. Yeah, we must
Joanne Lockwoodhost
resist. Joanne I put you on the spot? I meanwhen I've listened to some of your gigs and been part of your gigs, Ilove the simplicity that you say to people about how anyonecan play a tune and you say this little phrase andwith the phrase you tap the rhythm out of the baitbean can with a couple of chopsticks. Do you have your chopsticks and the baitbean can handy and just tell the audience I love and don't youforget it and how to bring that tune to life. Well,
Tom Morleyguest
yeah, given that you can edit this, I can do it.Let me see. Alright. So is this is this a pause?
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Tumbleweed. Yeah. The studio is now being wrecked asTom bends over and knocks over the the guitar on the keyboard.
Tom Morleyguest
I'm looking for a cab. I might have to do it on a calendar.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Let me let me see if it works. A calendar's good. I mean,as far as the as far as the audience concerned, they're on audio only. Theycan't see you. So I don't think whether it's a can or a a colander,it doesn't matter. You can imagine. I did put you on the spot here, andI do appreciate that, I'm trying myself in the north, so I think Don'tdestroy the myth that Tom's always got a can anda pair of chopsticks in his pocket. Let me see if he'll work on me.
Tom Morleyguest
Yeah. We're just about welcoming.Yeah, I can do that. I can do that.Do you want me to still pretend it's a can or shall I say it'sa colander? No Joanne no. I mean we
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I might even not cut this but just leave it rolling. So this is,tell the story. This is a calendar on the floor.
Tom Morleyguest
That, when I studied,Latin American percussion, I mean, you've got you've got the basicI'm just play this on, but, yeah, on a remote controland it wouldn't be, other end of a wooden spoon. So you got clave,whichiswhich is the basis of a lot of, carnival music. And thenI say, to people, if you find yourself in the carnival and youfeel a bit excluded because, you, youknow, you feel a bit white and tourist, just pick upanything on the ground. It could be a tin can. I've actually got a colanderhere, which, is on my studio floor at alltimes, and I'm gonna play it with a wooden spoon. Jo and therhythm is I love you, and don't you forget it? So,even if you you know, so you don't have to remember the rhythm. You justthink, I love you, and don't you forget it. You can't even say it adifferent way than, the way of of thebeat.So if you put that with the clave,then, you've you've pretty much got a carnival. You just needa bass drum.I've got 100 of people playing that, 1,000 over the last year.And, and I've also got, you know, with parentsplaying out, I've got their kids watching. And I say tothe kids, you know, kids were when they're when your parents say they're gonnawork, they're doing serious stuff, this is what they're doing really.I love that. And then I just get the kids joining into playing buckets. And, and the otherday, I said again, it is is a, you know, corporate teambuilding gig. Everyone was standing up because I get themstanding up. Listen. Do you know what we're all missing going on holiday?Bring something to the screen that reminds you of holiday. So they bringgoggles and masks and snorkels. And then the thethe kids always end up sort of crowding in. They can't resist it.So one of the the this little girl, she must have been about 7 yearsold. She started doing the crawl. She put these goggles on and she was doingthe crawl in the air. And, her dad,who's this big guy, he picked her up. So she waskinda horizontal in the air doing the crawl, but doing itreally well. I mean, she was a dancer, this girl, obviously a naturaldancer. So I just said to all 30 of them, you know, the board andeverybody, I said, okay, buddy, let's do the crawl. You know?So Jo they're all swimming inthe air and they were bringing things like suntanlotion and, you know, hats and, you know, allsorts. I said to them, see how many pairs of sunglasses you can jam onyour head. Jo some people were wearing 5 pairs of sunglasses, youknow, and that began with, them justme saying, why don't you play this rhythm? Andit turns into a circus ofcreativity. And I know you see the, the thingis I've been doing this so long. I know that's not farfrom the surface in anybody. It's dying tocome out and it's, it seems especially dying to come outin lockdown. So, I've just had a whale of atime this year. And and, to to be honest, I'm quiteconcerned about going back on stage because I I can't even if I see someonein the back row, it takes a you know, who really is a gooddancer, takes quite a lot of kerfuffle to get them on stage.On Zoom, I can just spotlight them in a second, or if I'mworking with a spotlight, then I just go spotlight that guy. You know?Damn. Let's bring him. Oh, I didn't I don't even whisper it. I think becauseI can see their name. Bring Jo to the stage. You know, Jo and hisdaughter. And, they become stars instantly. And whatdoes that do to a team who are usedto going on away days and having gala dinnersand getting indigestion and staying up too late and pretending they haven't gothangover because they're tough. All that is gone.They're, they're at home and they're just having a whale of atime. And the feedback as it comes in, you know, the chatis, this is incredible or go, Jo, orgo, Julie, or, you know, it's, Imean, it's amazing what we've done. And I'mkinda concerned that, because the government say Jo back to your officesbecause we wanna keep Starbucks and put our open.You know, it's it's nothing in comparison to whatthey're doing now. You know? Pret Pratt and Starbucks can work out adifferent business model. I don't want them to fail, but the you know,let's not go, you know, and returnto the old thing just to keep the old structures going. We've we've we'vebuilt this glorious world of kind ofinteraction and color and kids being involved rather than being leftcrying because their dad's at a conference for 3 days and all he'sdoing is getting a hangover.Like I say, I'm neutral about the whole thing. Amazing. I mean, Tom.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Tom, absolutely amazing. Amazing. I've sat throughwhile being part of many of your Voxstar Activator sessions,both as a a spotlight for you or sitting working on your production behindthe camera. And I'm always in awe of you thinkit's, you know, you think it's a one off, you know, how can anybody dothat again? The next time they're producing bass guitar drumkits out of nowhere, then this sort of,African drum comes out and then you've got this sort of like this Japanesething pops up and everyone's everyone's got these instruments in their homes andthey just bring them out, suddenly they're on camera and everyone is dancing, everyone'sengaging. The the whole families are involved, not just the people, youknow, the corporate business people. Yeah. It's all those all the children suddenly become partof it. And and then mom and dad and the children or dad and dadand the children and mama mama and the children are all joining in together.Making this a family event, aren't they? Yeah. Absolutely.
Tom Morleyguest
I mean, talk about inclusion. You you if you know, I'vedone, you know, pre COVID. I've I've helped out on Family Dayscompanies. It takes them 4 months toorganize those family days and they they might geta big top or something. They might get a clown in, but it's nothinglike what we do online. And, and it, it doesn't take anyorganizing at all, except clicking the zoom link. And,if on those family days, those on-site ones, I'd say,okay, I'm gonna email you a list, Bring some sunglasses. Bring ahat. Bring some bring that half the people turn out. Yeah. Inever read the email. Whereas if I, if I do it onzoom, now I know all that stuff is in the house. There's no way.If I say right, everyone get a colander and a wooden spoon, they'veall got a colander and a wooden spoon, you know, Jo, and they've all gothats and they've all got, as you say, they've all got these surpriseinstruments. If, you know, if I say, all right, there's, mime,guitar, just with a, you know, wooden spoonor or or mime with a clipboard or something, Thescreen will fill with guitarsand, banjos and, allsorts tennis rackets. You know, it it's phenomenal.Absolutely phenomenal what people have got at home. Mhmm.It is. Yeah. And the power of your
Joanne Lockwoodhost
your Voxter activator sort of show really because it really does.Everybody feels part of it, don't they? Everybody feels like they wanna take part andthey'll it brings out their inner sort of show off almost because they Yeah. Feelsafe in their own home, don't they? They don't feel like they're being embarrassed becauseall they can see is you and them. So they can say Yeah. It's avery safe space, isn't it? Yeah. And, I I mean, I've got guitars
Tom Morleyguest
and drums and all sorts here, but very often I say, okay, let'splay guitar and I just play a wooden spoon or,so it's, you know, so I'm not the king of the show.You know, and people bring pillow. You know, they play. They just grabcushions and they play them like kind of real rockstars. It's amazing. They believe it, theand because it's, yeah, screens full of their colleaguesdoing the same, as you said, they kind of build,the energy themselves. Oh, if Pam's doing that, Ican do this. You know, if Jo's doing this, it's you know?So it's, They're trying to outdo each other and outshine and
Joanne Lockwoodhost
out out guitar each other, aren't they? It's it's rivalry and everything is goingon. I just I don't think it's that competitive. I think it's,
Tom Morleyguest
okay. So it's more like permission. Oh, I see we'reallowed to do this. I don't think they're trying to, I don't get thesense they're trying to beat each other. It's like, ah, okay then.I I get it. It's cloak time. It's, it'skinda that whole thing about the shades I just discovered.Yeah. Well, you've seen her 2 pairs of shades. Why don't you get them bothon? And then I if I put 5 pairs of shades on, they'll yeah.Alright. It's kind of insect time. It's,it's it's just outrageous what happens.You couldn't you couldn't you couldn't do it in a creativity workshop ifyou planned it. It's just play them. You know, play themusic, play it out. The their systems are good or they're wearingheadphones or and they just get really excited. It's like beingat a gig. It's amazing.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Fantastic. So how can people get in touch with you if they wanna find outmore about you, your Voxstar Activator program, or or justgenerally saying hi. How do they get a hold of you? Well, my name
Tom Morleyguest
is Tom Morley, tommoreley.So I'm at Tom morley.com. I'mall over the Internet as well. If you were to put in Tom Morley drumsinto a search or Tom Morley rock star, you'd find me. Butif you come to the website, then you can find everything, allall the tags or and you can email me from there. And,also, that email will also go to my manager. So if you'rethinking, yeah, this guy sounds a bit weird, but he's organized.The the if you email me, it'll go straight to them.And if you say, yeah. Well, I just need a price totake to a meeting, you'll get it within an hour. I mean, you don't haveto say in that voice. You'd say, I need a price to take to ameeting. So we cater for everybody.And, so there's a whole structure behind me. Luckily, there didn't usedto be, but there is now last year, which isgreat because all I have to do is worry or concernmyself with the creativity, and they they do all the contracts andall that. They just send me some money every now and then.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. You you do rhythm and groove. Somebody else does invoice and finance.That's the way it should be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they do it really well.
Tom Morleyguest
I mean, it's it's a great formula. I wish I'd learned it40 years ago. There you go.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Well, a huge thank you. It's been an absolute honorand privilege to spend another hour and a bit's company with you.I know we get on and we we talk often but this has been inspirational.I've learned some stuff about that I never knew before and I'm a huge thankyou to you, the listener for tuning in and keeping up this far.Please do subscribe to keep updated on future episodes of the InclusionBites podcast, that's B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends, tell yourcolleagues. And I've got a number of well, I saymore exciting guests. I'm not sure if we can get more exciting than the guestswe've had already on on the show. But I've got loads more guests lined up,I'm sure you're gonna be inspired by over the next weeks months.Of course, why don't you come on the show? I'm sure you can beinspirational and I'm sure you can bring some some insight into your ownworld. So please do let me know, welcome your feedback orsuggestions how we can improve the show. So email me at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.That will come to me. I won't be passing that onto my manager or anyonelike that. You'll get me with that email address, guaranteed. So myname is Joanne Lockwood. It's been an absolute honor and apleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time.Bye.
