Joanne Lockwoodhost
Hello, everybody. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am the hostfor Inclusion Bites Podcast. In this series, I will beinterviewing a number of amazing people and simply having conversationsaround the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making theworld a better place for everyone to thrive in. If you'd like to joinme in future, then please do drop me a line to Jo Lockwood atseechangehappen co UK. You'll be to catch up with all ofthe shows on itunes, Spotify and of course, all the usualplaces. So please plug in your headphones, grab adecaf and let's get going. Todayis episode four with the title of how good humourcan be used to nurture inclusive cultures. And I havethe absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Jeremy.Nicholas and I first met Jeremy at a Speaking Associationconference in 2018 and we also shared a weekend inEdinburgh at a professional speaker weekend there. Jeremy isa keynote speaker on Communication in Business, specialisingin adding humour to presentations. So I askedJeremy to describe his superpower and he saidfinding the funny in everything, getting seriouslaughs in serious talks. Hello, Jeremy, welcometo the show. So how can good humour be used tonurture inclusive cultures? Hi, Jo. Yeah, well, I
Jeremy Nicholasguest
think humour is important because people bondwhen you have a laugh together. People that laugh together tend tostay together. And so I think any kind ofhumour that you can put into a situation, it willmake people like you, but that's not why you're doing it. You'll then like peoplethat are funny. So I just think it's just that little bit it's like puttinga bit of sugar in your tea. It's just a little bit nicer. Although, actually,that's a bad example because I don't put sugar in my tea.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So it's a very human cup of tea. Do you think it's a very humanthing to have humour? I think so,
Jeremy Nicholasguest
yeah. I think you see apes messing around as well, anddogs have a bit of a laugh, but none of them use humour withwords because they can't talk. Well, they can, but we don't know what they're saying.I've never laughed at a dog. I've never enjoyed theirmaterial very much. Yeah, no, I think it's a very humanthing. It's in our sort ofneeds that we have, but people always rank it very low down, theyalways go for security and warmth and friendship and things. But Ithink humour is something that everything's just better. It's likeseeing the world in colour. If it's funny, it's in colour, otherwise it's just inblack and white. Do you find that some people try to
Joanne Lockwoodhost
mask their personality by downplayingthe lighter side of them? And when we talk about some people never growingup or being a kid, where some peopleportray this very stiff, very rigid outerframe, do you think some people find it very difficult to letgo. Yeah, I think they do. I think
Jeremy Nicholasguest
sometimes you think people look like they've still got the coat hanger intheir jacket, so their shoulders like that, I think justcalm and relax. And that's whyit's so much better if people can have face to facemeetings. And you could have a businessmeeting with someone once a month for five years and never really get muchbeyond a certain stage. But you could have a retreat with them at a weekend,where you could then have a drink in the evening and chat and relax, andpeople start telling stories. And that's what we've done for years. We'vesat around campfires, told stories and perhapsshared an alcoholic beverage, and that just relaxespeople. And you then feel like, oh, yeah,they're the person I had that laugh with. Like you said, we had the weekendin Edinburgh with the professional speaking people. It was a Burns supper eventand we had a tour of the castle and it was fantastic weekend. Andthen when I then see people from that weekend at otherprofessional speaking events, I feel like I know them better than others that I've knownlonger, that I've only ever seen at an event, perhaps an evening eventonce a month for a few years. Yeah. Walking around a windy
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Glasgow up to the castle and standing there in that big square and takingphotographs and having other people take photographs of them. Rightly.
Jeremy Nicholasguest
You say windy Glasgow, but it was Edinburgh. Edinburgh.That's where Edinburgh Castle is. The way I remember it. The wayI remember where Edinburgh Castle is. It's in the title. So that's how just alittle numeric you might want to use. So it's near Glasgow, but not in
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Glasgow. Yeah. Never ever get Edinburgh and
Jeremy Nicholasguest
Glasgow confused. People fromGlasgow will tell you the trouble with Edinburgh is it's full of English people,and Edinburgh people are too polite to say what they think ofGlasgow. But as a comedian, particularly an Englishcomedian, it's much harder to go down well inGlasgow than it is inknow there are certain places so I know there are places in the countrywhere I go down very well, and there's places I don't go down very well.Liverpool. No, I'm not funny inLiverpool. I'm funny in Manchester, which is not very far away, so I don't knowwhy, but I'm not funny in Yorkshire. I'm veryfunny up about as far up the M one toabout redford north Nottinghamshire. Well, redford is on theA one. And then I lose mysuperpowers Rotherham Sheffield, all the way up Leeds. I'm notfunny. Not funny. And then I start getting funny again about Middlesbrough, and thenI'm funny all the way up to Scotland and Edinburgh. I'm very funny, but Igo across to Glasgow. Not funny at all. Okay, so
Joanne Lockwoodhost
that's like localization of what's funny and humourand accent, is it some accents they find funny, some accents they findelitist, maybe, I don't know. I think a lot of
Jeremy Nicholasguest
it would just be things that people laugh at and I think people in Liverpoollaugh at different things to people in Manchester laughknow, I go down very well in London because I live in London and Igrew up in London and otherplaces. I think it's just if you're seen as a bit of anoutsider so somewhere like Cornwall, that has very much itsown identity and know you come down here with your fancy ways,then you might struggle and that's in theirmind. I went to university in the north and I never got muchbeyond. You're not from around here, areknow, eventually with friends, they forget that you'refrom a different part, but for an audience, when there's a lot of them enmasse, you can seem like a bit of an outsider. So the way to thenbreak that down is always make yourself the butt of theso and then people willwarm to you. But I couldn't go to Glasgow and start having a goat in Glasgow you do this. I can't believe, you know, that's not going togo down well, but if I start saying it's lovely, here what you do, isn'tit? In London we do this and then they'll oh yeah, they'll laugh at that.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
London, right, okay, so you have to create the other group.Often when we talk about inclusive cultures, we end up usingcomedy or banter to create another groupand quite often you can find yourself being on the in groupand using humour against the other, whereas what you're suggesting thereis be the other and use your othernessto bring you into the in group if you like. Whereas banter is oftenabout creating an other and then taking the mickey out of it.
Jeremy Nicholasguest
Yes. So my rule on that is that I don'tever want anyone in the room to feel threatened.I don't like any sort of cruel humour. So you'll see a lot of standup comedians that are very cruel in their humour and they're laughing at a veryspecific group. I don't like to do that andthe only specific group I laugh at would be a group that I might belongto. So it might be Londoners or it might be menwith bald heads or it might be glasses wearers and all things. It'sclear that I'm making a joke about myself andI think that's really important not to have anycruelty. And the thing is, you can do the same stuff in different places andsome people will regard it as funny and others will regardit as oh, we shouldn't say that. So, for example, Jimmy Carrdid a story about he was working withinjured soldiers from Afghanistanand the Gulf conflict, and he was working with them, and a lot of themhad lost limbs, and there was a sort of a charity day,bonding day, and he went in and did a free gig for them and buthe'd spent the whole day working with them and chatting with them and having picturestaken, and they thought he was great. So when he came on and did ashow especially for them, and he said, say what you like about the war inAfghanistan, we're going to have a great team for the Paralympics, theyall laughed because they knew that he had judged that that would be all right,because that was the sort of thing that they'd all been saying to him. Andthey'd had banter amongst themselves. So he knew that was fine.Encouraged by that, he then put it in his set the next night inManchester to a theatre audience, and people booed him.And the difference was, the soldiers in the audience and their families allknew that he had done so much to help and that that's the sort ofthing they would say. And he knew he wasn't having a go at them, hewas laughing with them, whereas in Manchester it looked like hewas picking on soldiers that lost limbs. And so that was very different. Andhe's spoken about that and he doesn't do that now. Soit's just the difference between looking like you're having a go atpeople and looking like you're laughing with people. Are you laughing withor at? Yes. When I talk about
Joanne Lockwoodhost
DNI World, it's understanding your intent and thenthe impact. I didn't intend to cause offence, but in this scenario,in this context, offence was takenbecause the context was different. Humour.You got to understand the context of the humour, haven't you? Yeah.
Jeremy Nicholasguest
The trouble with analysing humour too much is that inevitably youkill it's like dissecting a frog. You find out how the frog works, butthe frog dies. And that's the thing with comedy, you look at it too much,it's like, yes, okay, we've got a bit serious about that. But,yeah, you are right. I suppose as a comedian, you
Joanne Lockwoodhost
probably learn that you can't be funny to all people every time,everywhere, and you just have to roll with that and just pick yourself up andcarry on. Yes. So I
Jeremy Nicholasguest
did last year at the Edinburgh Fringe, I did 27 shows on27 days in a row and I was happy with 23 ofthem. And there were four that I wasn't happy with.But of those four gigs, people cameup to me at the end and said, I like that. That's the best showI've seen since I've been at the Fringe. And I'd say, when did you arrive?And they said, about an hour ago. Just a joke I'vethrown in. That didn't happen. It just occurred to me now,but the point being the four that I wasn't happywith, it's often because there were people sitting there folding their arms or there wasjust a person with a grumpy face in the front row. And that isthe thing with a fringe venue, the way acomedy gig is set up, the light's very bright on the stage, the audience isin darkness, so you can perhaps only see the front two rows. And if there'sone person in the front two rows who has their arm folded, it looks likemaybe their partner dragged them along and it's not really their sort of thing andthey'd much rather have gone somewhere else. You've just got tozone them out of your head, because if you look at them, you think, thisis going really badly. And most comedians have a bit of an insecuritythat, oh, I'm not funny anymore.And you've just got to rely on the fact that every night you've donethis material, when you've been practising, when you did your previous shows, and when youdid it at the event, it got a laugh, so it probably is still funny.So never mind that bloke with a grumpy face in the front row, just ignorethem from those four gigs. I got other referralsfrom people because they said, no, that was really good, butI had times when I thought I might need to just run off this stageand run out into the road screaming because it's going so badly. But it neverwas. It never was. But most people who do humorous stuff have a little bitof an insecurity about, oh, my goodness, is this funny anymore? Especially if you'vedone stuff before and so you've got used to it.The things that make me laugh the most are unexpected things.So if I've done a show four times in a row, I think, well, fedup with this now. And the tendency then is to start chucking innew stuff that's just occurring to you like I did about that person. I'vejust got here an hour ago, which is mildly amusing, butI don't think I'll ever say that ever again in my life. The danger isyou get some people who start then riffing and doing stuff thatthey're thinking of sort of stream of consciousness type stuff, andthat's when the danger is, because then you haven't filtered it. The stuff thatyou've written, you've checked, is there anything offensive in it?It's when people start ad libbing that their truepersonality might come out and they might say it's something racist or sexistor homophobic if they have that in them. Now, I don't have that in me,so I'm unlikely to do that, but I might go too farjust on a particular point. I might be notoffensive, but I might just go a little bit too far with somethingyou think probably best not to do that again. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
what you may have done is inadvertently just use languagethat wasn't good language. You wouldn't necessarily beoffensive, but the language in the context of the way you use that language, someonemight have detected some sort of element of racism. I thinkyou see it politicians all the time. Instead of referring to a person of colour,they talked about a coloured person. That's because theirskill about how to describe somebody and the use ofadjectives isn't quite right. So, as you say, when they go offpiece and wing it, they can sometimestheir inner brain kicks in and then they lose the context orsentence that they haven't thought about. And, yeah, I guesscomedy, it's even more risky to go offscript, because then how do you get yourself back in again, then? That mustbe quite tricky, but I know what youmean about yeah, I. Really like the.Carry on. Sorry, I was just going to say I really like
Jeremy Nicholasguest
the Claire in the Community sitcom on Radio Four. Idon't know if you know, I've. Not heard that one. Claire is a social worker,played by she's a social worker, played by Sally Phillips. It's based on along running comic strip in The Guardian, and she's a social worker, soshe tries all the time to use the correctlanguage and be very PC, but occasionally she'll startcensoring herself when there's no need to. So theyhave a meeting and they're talking all about in one of the episodes, they're talkingabout humour. And she says, yes, we can't have any black humour,dark humour. She just immediately corrects herself on that,as though anyone would have any sort of problem with that.But, yeah, people do tie themselves in circles.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah, I know what you're saying. Also, when you're on stage, you're deliveringeither as a professional speaker, as a comedian, I've done a few stand up gigsand I know if you've got the wrong audience or theaudience that's not quite in the right eyeline, you've got one person, as you say,is looking, playing with their phone, arms crossed, notinterested. That can almost your brain just locks onto that negativity sometimes,isn't it? And I often find when I talk on stage, if I just needone person to smile at me in the first couple of sentences andI've got them, and that's the person I can work with. I can then blankeverybody else out. But, yeah, I do a little stand up routine, whichI've done a few times now, and I delivered it the other day. And theaudience, it's like a square audience, so I had nobody in front of me, everyonewas in the periphery and there was no one I could focus on. I couldn'thear the laughter. And that's a really tricky thing to sort of pick up on,isn't it? And as you said, you start todoubt yourself how funny you are. You think, that should have got a laugh andit got a titter. It didn't get a belly laugh. And it's a really trickything. Without wantingto date this podcast too much. We're now, in this sort of like, worldpandemic situation. We hear these wordsunprecedented, and I think we hear about 15 times a day.And I think by now it's kind of the norm. I think we can movepast unprecedented now. So how can we, ashumans, keep oursmiles up? The British have this spirit ofsoldiering on stiff upper lip. But how can we now come together as acountry and laugh about stuff? Yes,
Jeremy Nicholasguest
so people have different approaches. One thing that a lot of people send to meare lots of little internet memes, little funny images or videos.And to be honest, if I'm working and they start flying in, Ijust switch my notifications off because I think, no, hang on, I'm busy, and dothat. But then I'll settle down the evening and then I'll see them coming in.Someone sent me one the other day and it was a picture of the LastSupper, as though it was a Zoom call. They'd taken allthe people, so you've got Jesus in the middle with nobody else on the table.And then all of the disciples have been put into little zoom windows.And that was a funny image. And I felt like, yeah, because that's how Ispend my life now, talking to people on zoom.I just think, just pick up the phone to people that always make youlaugh, that you always tell good stories with and just havea really good rant about all the things that are annoying you,because it's a great way to releasesome tension and a lot of comedyjust to release a tension. You build up that pressure, build it up, build itup, and then the laughter is the pressure beingreleased. And so we call it truth andpain, where you just moan about stuffand the otherthat's something that annoys them. Then you'll have a shared bond and you can laughat it. And you can make your problems smaller by laughing at it. Nomatter how big something seems, if you laugh at it, what a great weapon thatis. It just brings it down to size. So that's called truth andpain. And if you think about a comedian or a professionalspeaker, when they come on, they don't ever start by saying, I'll tell you whatI really like. And if they told you all the stuff they likedand that they're happy with, that's not funny. But if they go, oh, it drivesme mad when so Billy Connolly would be the best atknow when the person in front of you plays with a cheque or you pickthe wrong queue at the post office. Yeah,Ulster is going to the days when we were allowed outside, of course,but it's that common shared thing. SoI have a programme called Talking Funny for Speakers,where I give them exercises to do onhow to make their talks funnier. And week one, the exercise is writedown all the things that annoy you, and then in the group, we all shareall the things that annoy us. And then you think, right, what is funny aboutthat? And then what else is funny about that? And what would be even more?And it'll go to like, four stages and what else? And what else? And whatelse until you get that little bit of gold that like, yep, that's the line.That's what really annoys me. Yeah, I like that,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
because the routine I do, I think you've heard it, is all around the painin my life and the sort of ironic examples ofhow just being me in the world. Andpeople laugh at it because they'd never thought of those things in that contextbefore. And it allows them to get an insight onto the pain and theirony that I face every day. If I just said, I'm really happywalking down the street, there's no humour in that, is there? But,yeah, if I say I'm walking. Down the street,
Jeremy Nicholasguest
what gets the biggest laugh in your routine? What is the line that you thinkalways that's the killer line. I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
talk about the airport scanner and the punchline to thatis unexpected item in the bagging area. And that always gets thesort of people come up to me afterwards and they're still laughing about that onebit because it's a common phraseused in a different context and I don't kind of signpostit enough and then I land it and it kind of just makes people go,wow, where did that come from? Yeah, I see what you say. Oh, yeah, Iget it now. And it's a way of being crude without beingcrude, isn't it, as well? And I think when you have a
Jeremy Nicholasguest
good line like that, what I always encourage people to do is then say, andwhat else could you say about that? What other things would go along withunexpected item in the baggage area? I actually
Joanne Lockwoodhost
now talk about the fact that so women out there,if you want to smuggle cocaine, make it look like you're trans, it's much easierto get through customs that way. Very good
Jeremy Nicholasguest
line. Yeah, we've got a laugh as well.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Do you find sometimes people kind of mask anunderlying mental health problem by using humour? They're using it as a wayof covering their life and how can we stop orhow can we spot that and help people who are justmasking their underlying conditions?
Jeremy Nicholasguest
Yes, I think a lot of people thata lot of professional comedians have over the years havemental health problems. There's a very high rate of suicideamongst comedians, and alcoholism and drugs, but then there's an awfullot that don't have any problems with it at all.But I think people thatjust think a little bit differently are often very goodat making humour.I don't know how you spot it and I don't really know how you help,because that's not really my end of things. No,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
so, Robin Williams, for example, everyone thought he was the life and soul of theparty and quite clearly had some very underlying mental healthconditions, and everyone thought he was okay,that was how he was. But I guess he must have gone home at night,switched off the microphone, switched off the cameraand turned in on himself, maybe. Yeah, becauseas a speaker, and I know many speakers, we kind of thriveon the audience appreciation, don't we? We thrive onthat brain drug that we like to be liked.And sometimes when you're not in front of the camera, not without anaudience, the vacuum appears, isn't it? And you're then living on your ownwith yourself again and no one to find you. So I
Jeremy Nicholasguest
think my thing is that it's importantnot to care too much whether they laugh or not, because if you'rereally craving that laughter like it's heroin,then on the days when you haven't got a show, you're going tostruggle. So I think just think ofit, it's nice if they smile.If they laugh, it's better. But if they don't do anything, they've stillhad the story that you're telling. That's my big thing. It's always got tobe I don't ever think of myself as a comedian,I think of myself as a storyteller with some kind of a learningmessage. So they're getting the learning, they're hearing the story,and then instantly, if they laugh as well, that's a bonus. And usually they do,but I wouldn't ever want to go out and just do did you hear theone about because to me, there's no point. I don't cravethe laughter enough for that, and I'm not funny enough either forthat, because all of my background is I was a BBCbroadcaster journalist for years, so it's always been about thecontent. And the humour for me is only ever the icing on thecake. It's not the actual cake itself, it's just a little bit ofsprinkle of sugar to help that medicine go down. Good
Joanne Lockwoodhost
point. I've seen you MC someevents, and I think you're a fantastic MC, and I know you even coachMCs for events as well. So how important it is? Isit to have a great MC or someone facilitating? Because some contentin some conference could be quite straight laced or do needthis icebreaker. So how do you see your role in that situation?
Jeremy Nicholasguest
Yeah, so I see the role of the MC to set the tone for theevent, to answer any questions that the audience mighthave. So, first of all, what's the WiFipassword? Where are the toilets? When's the break? How long isthis going on? When can I get out of here so that people can planthat? Any other questions? Like, if they're glutenfree, there's gluten free sandwiches atthe far end in the breakout sessions. Do I have to pick now?So, any question. So I just think, what do the audience need to know? Andthen it's about giving a build up to all of the speakers. Andmost speakers give me introductions that are far too long and I just say,all I need to know is who you are, what you're speaking about, why weshould listen. Please welcome your name. That's all I need, four lines, butstill people send me biographies and I don't care about that. I don't carehow many universities you went to and how many degrees you've got and what yournames of your children are, just who you are, what you're talking about, why you'rehere, why we should listen. What's your name? Off you go. Andthen it's coordinating the clapping, really.Organisers often haven't got a clue how to do this. A number of times they'llsay, well, the chief executive is going to say a few words and then welcomeyou as the MC. That's something I get all the time. And whenever I havethe meeting, I say, okay, that's mad. I need to come onfirst to hush them up. Tell them the rules, tell them aboutswitching their phone to silent, tell them the hashtag, all those things they need toknow, and then, please welcome the chief exec. So he come or he or shecomes on to applause. And I said, if the chief exec goeson, then he or she will thenhave to hush them up. Well, that's not a good way to do it. Andthen welcome me. Why welcoming me? I'm just some bloke you've paid, so all right,yes, okay, we'll do it that way around. And then with the speakers, you needto make sure that they start well andany kind of showing off that they were going to do, you do for them.So if someone's written a book, I don't want them coming on waving their bookaround. I'll go, oh, they've written this book, they must be worth listening to. Andthen I'm giving them a plug and then they come on to applause.And then my other big tip for MCs, sorry, I'm a bit fanatical about this,is that when you get to a break, when you get to a break, youwant to leave the stage to applause. The number of times people go, Well, Ithink we'll take a break there. See you back in 15 minutes. And then everyoneshuffles out quietly. What you need to sayis, coming up after the break, we've got Dave, who'sgoing to do this, we've got Miranda, who's going to do a session on this,and Leslie will be here to share these thoughts. But let's hear it for thetwo speakers we've heard so far, joe and Marion.And then there's clapping. You walk off, it's not your clapping, they're clapping. Jo andMarion. But it means that everyone knows that that's the thing. And they'renot just shuffling out quietly to get a coffee. No great
Joanne Lockwoodhost
ideas, great tips. And I think when you're in the audience, you can experience thedifference. As you say, there's the chalk and cheese there, anda great MC adds to the event. There's a valuable part of it, andit makes the segue between the speakersfar more relevant. You get the takeaway summarised, you get buildup energy in the room. And I know when I come on stage, I lovethe energy as I come in. And the one thing
Jeremy Nicholasguest
people often say is, oh, you don't notice a good MC. If they've done theirjob, you shouldn't notice them. If they don't notice me, I haven't done myjob. I want them to notice me because I want them to think, oh, thatwas really good. It reflowed. Well, because of the MC, I'll recommend him to somebodyelse. So forget that rubbish about you don't notice a good MC. That'srubbish. No, I agree with that. I've MC'd a couple of
Joanne Lockwoodhost
events and I really want to be building them up. I want the audienceto start clapping. I even get to practise clapping while we're in the dead spacebefore the thing starts. I want a couple of whoops. I get competition goingbetween the sides, and then when someone comes on, they're already in that zone wherethey don't mind clapping and being vocal, which is what youwant as a stage performer, as a speaker, you want thatenergy because that's what you soak up when you first come on, isn't it?And I love the point about you introducing my book and not me,because it's having someone else talk about you as an authorityis far more powerful than saying about yourself, isn't it?
Jeremy Nicholasguest
Yeah, absolutely. I think that all speakers would welcome a good MCbecause then they're coming on, they've started the fire, and then the speaker will justcome on and throw paraffin on the fire and get it all going. But ifthey come on dead, it's really hard to lift it. And especially if you'vehad a session and the speaker before you wasn't very good or thesubject was very serious, so it brought the mood down a bit, thenthe job of the MC is to, oh, I can't let the next person startlike that. So it's basically like a barbecue, where occasionally, asthe MC, you've got to put a few bits of paper, a bit of abit of opening the air valve belonging to get it going,so that the next person starts it's like a spinning top. You've just got towhip it a few times to get the top going so that thenext speaker at least starts with a decent chance of doing a good gig.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Well, thank you for your time, Jeremy. I really appreciate you takingsome time out in your busy pre Easter schedule.I'm sure you have lots of things planned, like going to the side or maybegoing for a walk in the forest. But maybe next week.Well, maybe August, but keep safe. So,for my listeners, many thanks to Jeremy. I'm sure you'll agree there's plenty of humourfor thought. We talked a bit about MCE as well. And a huge thankyou to you all for listening in. So please do subscribeto keep updated on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast.That's B-I-T-E-S please tell your friends please tell yourcolleagues I've got a whole load of exciting guests lined upthat I'm sure you'll be inspired by over the next few weeks and months.Please remember, if you would like to be a guest on this show, please letme know. I would welcome all of your feedback, comments and suggestions toJo Lockwood at seechangehappen co UK.Let me know how we can improve. Let me know what content you would like.So, my name is Joanne Lockwood. It's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcastfor you today.
