Joanne Lockwoodhost
Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am your host for theInclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed anumber of amazing people and simply had a conversation around the subject ofinclusion, belonging and generally making the world a betterplace for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, thenplease do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.that's, S-E-EChange Happen dot co dot uk. You can catch up with all ofthe previous shows on iTunes, Spotify, and the usual places.So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf, and let's getgoing. Today is episode 45with the title Living on the Edge. And I have the absolutehonor and privilege to be joined by Andi Maratos.Andi is the CEO of Chrysalis, a charity supporting trans,non binary and questioning people together with their family and friends.When I asked Andi to describe their superpower, they saidthat they genuinely believe in people. Hello, Andi.Welcome to the show. Hi, Jo. Thank you so much for
Andi Maratosguest
inviting me. It's great to be here. Yes. And
Joanne Lockwoodhost
we're this is the day after with the latest announcement that,lockdown has been extended for yet another 4 weeksto the end of July now. Another another 4 weeks of talking to people on
Andi Maratosguest
Zoom, but I know. It's what it is. I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
know. I did my first in person training gig yesterday, andit was really strange presenting to a a ring full ofpeople socially distanced. Actual humans. Really, really hard.Yeah. Say again. Sorry? Actual humans in an actual
Andi Maratosguest
space. Actual humans, actual space. Yeah. The challenge was
Joanne Lockwoodhost
there was too much space, and it was very difficult to haveconversations and talk to each other, but there we are. But yeah. Jo,hopefully, 1 more month, and we'll be back toto normal. And we can talk about what we mean by normal in a minute,Shelley.Yes. So, Joanne, living on the edge.We talked about this just now. So what's living on the edge mean to you?
Andi Maratosguest
So I thinkI've never quiteknown the language, fitted in, whatever, see myself in thespace of all of those people over there.And that flows through everything insideme. So that's the music. That's my growing up.Does it enable me to define my gender identity and mysexuality? Probably all of those things areare just edges, not quite in there.But for me, that's, it's a great spacebecause on the edge,and I'm sure there's a Pratchett quote in here somewhere, but you cansee things more clearly.Anybody who knows me knows that I love Pratchett. Andinevitably, there's going to be some quotes that slip in here from,some of his stories. I think he's, although he's an author, I think he's agreat philosopher.Andbeing on the edge. So it makes me see things differentlybut it makes me that much more able andwilling to reach out and,draw others closer to to make theedge a safe space in and of itself. That it'sokay to be different. Thatbeing different is just as awesome as everything else.And maybe the the more you look at it, the more you explorethe, the concept, the more you see thateverybody's got a bit of edge inside them.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. Interesting. I I mean, I I probably spentthe majority of my life tucked in the middlein typically middle class, typically white, typicallyin a family unit, you know, the 2.4 nuclearfamily, typically on that wrap run ofacquiring assets, being a good employee, doing as you'retold, growing in the company. I spent a lot of my life in thatin that center middle ground. And sinceyou're what you say, I would say in the last 4 or 5, maybe 6years, I've been edging closer to the outsideof that. And when you say you can see things more clearly,I think you're so right. But then when you're in the middle of everything, there'sso much going on, so much conformity. You don't have the chanceto rethink about who you are, what you believein. You you just get caught up in that group think and that way youdo stuff. Jo, yeah, I can see that. So what have you learnedfrom from your edge if you like?
Andi Maratosguest
I think, yeah, absolutely. Like you say that there is there's more space.You can see more, you can be yourself. So,I like you, I I started off tryingto play the game, trying to fit in, didall the things that were expected of me like, you know,going to university, get into that career, get on the ladder.And then and and in thattime and that space, I was hiding very much I was hiding who I was.And that's not I say, not necessarily my sexuality ormy gender identity, that's my real intrinsicme. That's the me that makes me who I am, which is much more thanthat. That's the alternative me, the me that thinks differently, thatsees things differently, that literally doesnot have anything else in the wardrobe that's not black.And I tried to conceal that. I tried to conform.I tried to pretend, and I tried to listen to the language and be likeeveryone else. And it just doesn't work.And eventually,I got made redundant kind of thing happens to everybody. Well, not everybody,but a lot of people go through that. It's a life changing moment. It's atime to reevaluate. And I foundmyself out of the corporate world and intothe education world. And in there, Istarted to find a place of much morecollaboration. Business manufacturing, it's allabout competition. It's all about guarding your secrets.But in education, we were there to try and help each other growand develop and nurture. And even though that'sthe job of the institution to do for the students, italso does for the staff and everyone connected.And so I startedto grow and develop and to to reach out and start to feelwho my real me was.And I went I saidto my boss, would it be okay if Igot stuff put in my hair? Because I'm goingto an event, and it takes quite a while to get thisstuff installed.And, it's I'm gonna have to be coming into work and sitting at my deskin front of you looking a bit weird for a while. For me tohave that conversation with my boss, who's a former armyofficer, quite proper, was a massive thing. Andhe said, as long as it's not pink, I don't mind. AndI thought, how little you know me? It wouldliterally it it might be any other color, but it's never gonna be pink. ButI think that it's just that absoluteyeah absolutely you are welcome here asyou. Was like oh,wow. I've kind of kind of found my space.And I haven't told this storyfor ages now, actually, but it still getsme because, yeah, hewas a ex army, buthe would we were in student accommodation and you neededsomeone who just totally got the people or individuals firstand that you come to university to develop yourself and that he reallyvalued that in his staff and his team as well.And I think that was the switch that flicked. That saidyou don't have to keep pretending. You don't haveto understand that way ofbeing Because actually what you've gotis more than that. What you've got is different. What you've gotis valuable. What you've got in yourselfcan create a world where it's okay to beyou.The yeah. The being on the edge, living on the edge is valuableand creates change. And, yeah, fromfrom there, maybe I stuck around in that job a little bit long. Iwas within the education sector for15 years. I I came out there.But I think yeah. I came out as alternative. I startedbeing visible as my whole authentic self.And from that, I gained confidencein in my authentic me, inmy knowledge, in my brain, in my abilities to goforward, to go back into education, to learn more, andeventually to, take the risk, take the leap totake on chrysalis. That,yes, I really could do it. Soyeah that was 2017, I took arisk, I believed in me andI believed in my individuality.And I believed it was strong enough that that beliefcould carry through and believe in all the other people involved.And with that belief, wecould all become our authentic selves.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
It's interesting what you said about coming out as alternative.I mean, III think back to so I'm I was born in themid sixties. I So my kinda growing up formative kinda yearwith seventies, inthose days, people used to align themselvesmore with music. So punk, you hadrockers, you had, goths,you had Joanne of The Smiths.Jo people used to align themselves with with their identities around that. And, of course,we had the new romantics of the early early eighties, the Duran Duran, theSimon of Bonsolin. So people didn't reallycome out as alternative. They were part of a musiccrowd sort of thing. People were punk, people wererockers. Not in not in the corporate world.
Andi Maratosguest
Absolutely. No. Not in the corporate world. No. But but you can decide
Joanne Lockwoodhost
to weekend. Precisely. Yeah.
Andi Maratosguest
But you I I'veI've spoken with colleagues who, you know, they take all their piercingsout for an interview. Guys who wouldn't even havelike 1 piercing.Yeah. Certainly in the nineties, you you just wouldn'tbe seen as you. I think hair color,visible tattoos,and I think those changes that have beendriven by those of us who for whom that is an intrinsic part of whowe are, but we've gradually moved up in whatever fields. We'veseen that, oh my goodness, a tattoo is not going to destroysomebody's ability to perform a function or to to do a job. Sothings have shifted, Iguess I'm kinda kindagoing sideways, but this is me.I think that the change that started with allthose subcultures are certainly in in the UK with the musicalsubcultures. I do think that that has beenpart of what's progressed the wider,inclusion.I don't wanna use the word agenda.Change. You know, just that that greater acceptance, greaterunderstanding of all kinds of diversity andthat and I suppose because music is something that youcontrol, that level of self agencythat is just an aspect of who you are. Andif you wanna grow your hair or if you want to have a tattoo,then it doesn't change who you are. But I still thinkwe're a very long way from that being acceptableat senior level. I think thereare small pockets. I think it is coming up.But I was on a call earlier watching lots of,executives talk about how, they're fantasticallies, to the LGBT community fromtheir, you know, senior positions.And they alllooked incredibly conformist. Inthat every single person using he, him pronounswas wearing a shirt, and so on and andso forth. And so I think we're still a long way awayfromrelaxing completely and meeting people onthat actual genuine level Jo thatthen they can become that best person.We still got all the assumptions and thethe covering, the need to perform in a particular way.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
We've come out of the weekend shadows into the mainstream over thelast 10 or so years. As you say, wewere in the seventies and eighties, we were kind ofweekend punks. We were And it's huge culture as well
Andi Maratosguest
Yeah. I think. And that certainly,you know, shifted. You know, we've we've grown up. That doesn't mean that there's notyoung people in all of the scenes, but, yes, it hascertainly become much more. But it it took the rock and
Joanne Lockwoodhost
roll era and the sixties era to startestablishing youth culture to none. I guess in the seventies, there weren't enoughpeople old enough to be not youth culture. People were still intheir mid thirties, late thirties. Jo now that we'vegot people who have come through that era Mhmm. Of thatfreedom, that youth culture to understand that we're taking that I'm takingthat into my fifties and sixties now. Yeah. Whereas my myparents, they were brought up in an era that that forgottengeneration, that wartimeyeah. They were born on the cusp of of the outbreak of war. So theydidn't already have that freedom in their teenage years toexpress. And maybe, as I say, maybe the therock and roll is where the first teenage culture came from, isn't it?
Andi Maratosguest
But yeah. I agree. But I think that there'smaybe, an over,focus on very small groups.So people talk about the hippies. There were not that many hippies.If there were, we'd be living in a very different world right now than the1 we're in. And and the same withwith the, the subcultures, the the cultureof normality, the culture of, as you said, that,go on down the 2.4a half a dog path,do not question, do not assume. Oh my goodness. There's definitely noway that we're ever gonna tell anybody that we're gay.Space that was was prevalent all the certainly all the way through theeighties. Oh, HIV. Yeah. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
The the original partial partial to criminalization of homosexuality in 1967.And as soon as that that freedom was it was allowed, then theHIV AIDS epidemic took over,which kind of put a kibosh on thatfreedom of expression that people then had. And section 28, I mean,all those other things going on, you know, promoting promotionof gay education in schools.So that all that kind of restifled that and it's now only thatwe've got past over that that constraint, if youlike, we're now able to start restart expressing ourselves. You
Andi Maratosguest
say we've got past it? Well, it
Joanne Lockwoodhost
from a sexuality, maybe, potentially, point of view, but we still see it inHungary. We see it in Poland at the moment. We see it in many territoriesin the world. But and even in much ofAmerica, even though the UK is not perfect, it's it's a lotmore liberal, a lot more tolerant and accepting of of varyingidentities than many places in the world. You know, I'm not saying we should becount as lucky or anything because there are still areas where there's a lot towork to do, but we do have it relativelyeasier in terms of identity and expression than many othercountries in the world at the moment.
Andi Maratosguest
But I do wonder whether we talk ourselves interfering that it's notso so great. Yeah. I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
mean, Twitter, some of the Sundayroyalties and tabloids, the constant barrage of of hatethat goes on around certain communities, the the polarization of themedia, stirring up discord where it doesn't need todoesn't need to be there, creating this big debate around taking theknee black lives matter, put this hope but pitchingpitching people against each other all the time, trying to create this this debate inthe media. Yeah. Debate. Yeah. Telling peoplethey have to have a side, whereas before people could form their ownminds, but now they've been given a side because their their culture, their background, theirtribe, whatever it may be. And and that that's you have to have a
Andi Maratosguest
side. You can't have an opinion or a thought or a feeling oran experience. That is not nuanced. It has to be a side. And if youhave to have a side, then we have to define it. And, actually,we're talking about edges. There there thereis no no other side, is there? You know?
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I mean, without I'm not gonna express my view on taking the knee,but what what 1 view I do have, which is a core beliefof mine, it matters to some people, therefore it matters to me, itmatters to them. So whatever I my feelings on it are, andthey're not negative, the overriding thing for me is it's notmy it's not my cause. It's not my thing I wanna do, but ifit matters to you, I support you in what you do. And a lot ofpeople don't see that as a conclusion of theirthought process. They wanna debate whether it's right or wrong. I don't care if it'sright or wrong. I care that you care. Yeah. And that's that,
Andi Maratosguest
when coming back to talking about the superpower of belief inpeople that believingthat you, youJo, are important.Your belief structure is important. The actions you take, thereality that you described to me is absolutely true andvalid and important. Listeningis is where it comes down to, isn't it? But that's the that'sthe power that that really delivers positivechange.If I ignore all of those things and you tell me what's important to toyou and I still ignore you, thenwe're not gonna get anywhere. Yeah. And
Joanne Lockwoodhost
whenever I talk to people, whenever I train, whenever I consult with people,I always come from the view that as human beings, we don't get upand set off the day to be nasty or have badintent. And all I say is to people is this is whatmakes me happy and this is what makes me sad. And I know generally,you just wanna make people happy. So these are the things that make me happy.And if we can stick to those, I'm fine. We're fine. Andmaybe it's because I've got a clear understanding of what does make me sad andwhat makes me unhappy because of my identity,because of some of the, the struggles I've had in the last few years. Maybeother people don't realize through their privilege or their lens
Andi Maratosguest
that they actually got privileged. In the middle. Yeah. Again, thinking about taking ittaking yourself out and having a look at yourself. And andwhat does that mean? That that being being an alternative for me, thatthat's, a subcultural thing, but it's being alternative to themainstream in in whatever way, isn't it? And doing that work.Whereas if you're comfortable in the middle, ifyou've never felt that tension, if you've never,if everything you've tried has worked okay, then that'salright. And you don't you haven't done that work. You haven't thought about who youare. So you don't really know what makes youhappy because you've never really bumped up against the thingsthat don't make you happy. Andin counseling, so I'm a person centered therapist.And our second principle forfor therapy is that the client needs to be ina state of incongruence. You need to have realized that something's notright. You need to have experienced something out of alignmentin order to go and want to actively change it.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. I think when you know, going back to what you're saying about thisspace on the edge, in the center, it's very denselypacked, isn't it? It's suffocating. There's no room to stretch. There's noroom to sort of enhance and develop. I think you're so right. On the onthe edge, there is more grass. There is more free space. We're livinginstead of living in the center of the city, we're living in the country, we'reliving on the beach, and I've got my own space.And I I love the way that we we have an identity now ofquestioning. I think questioning is brilliant. That's mecross legged in a grassy field somewhere just trying to figureout who I am, what life's about, what my direction is withouthaving noise in my head all the time. So you must do this,get on the conveyor belt, get off at the next exit, drive anddrive. And I think questioning was a was a fantastic place for me tobe where I just figured stuff out without thatpressure, but you need to go out of the center. And it's safe in the
Andi Maratosguest
middle. It's Jo safe in the middle. Youif you don't challenge things, thenyou're not risking much.And I guesswe're all capable of achieving intellectually whatever weachieve. And with people take risks in businessor whatever. But if you're in the middle, youcan do all of those things and look like you're progressing, but you're not takingrisks with your core being. You're notgoing, what if?Yeah. You're not taking that walk down the street whenyou absolutely know thatyou're gonna get something shouted at you. Because you don't needto.I had a thought. Where did my thought go, Jo?
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Well, people shouting at you. People shouting atyou. And that's that's just 1
Andi Maratosguest
1 example. But it is aboutstepping outside your comfort zone. And they're they're cliches that turn to peoplelike, oh, god. I don't wanna do that.But actually, it's amazing.It's amazing being different becauseyou can do so much more. You can you cantake a charity and go, no, it's gonna be likethis. And and it is.And we've gonestratospheric, really, with the the support that we're offering.If you're if you're different, you can go,oh, heck. Lockdown.Better do something. Turn on a 6 monthsbecause you're used to notfollowing those thoseworn parts of thought because you know, I know thatthey don't work for me. If if everybody elseis doing it, I am not the person to try to persuadeto do it because I'll be looking forwhy. What can we improve?Always. Always. Well, if that's what everybody's doing, surely there's somethingbetter. You think when
Joanne Lockwoodhost
you're in the middle sometimes that you you're seeking validationfrom your peers, checking that it's the right thing to do all thetime. Oh, maybe maybe you're nearer the edge ornearer that questioning place. You You'reso used to making decisionsthat are life changing affecting and realizing those decisionswhilst they have consequences, they're not the enormous fear that youthought they would be.
Andi Maratosguest
I'd hate to generalize, actually, because I can think of a lot ofpeople for whom living on the edge is constantlyanxiety inducing. Mhmm.I think aboutall the the brackets of diversityand, all the covering that people have to do,all of the extra lifting that you have to do,you know, whether it's visible, whether it's not, whether you come out,etcetera, etcetera. Again, go back to the, beingshouted out on the street.But from a personal perspective,I don't know what the middle ever felt like because it was never I wasnever in it. Jo, yes,I'm used to not getting that affirmationand making risks and just kind of relying onmyself. If it feels right, do it. Because nobody'sgoing to properly get what you're doing anywayuntil they do, until you prove so for me, it's proving myself by myactions. I said I could do it. I did it.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Mhmm. I've certainly I think I've probably just proven it to
Andi Maratosguest
myself, but don't think anybody else cares. I I certainly
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Joanne I I've stopped asking permission.And I remember distinctly feeling I neededto ask permission for things around byidentity reevaluation, mycareer. I have business partners. I had bosses.So I was always feeling that I I couldn't be empowered, but I supposeI suppose it's pretty hard for me to to be specificabout where this change occurred. 1 is, yeah, I I obviouslyreengineered my entire being in terms of careerand gender identity at the same time. So it's difficult to work outwhether I found empowerment through change of career andand passion and purpose or whether that there was an alignmentof self. How which 1 was the most crucialinto finding myself, whether it was my gender identity or was it the alignment ofpassion and purpose. And I still look back on that and think, could I havedone 1 without the other? I'll never know. There's no controlgroup. I can't ever check that. But I do wondersometimes was were they both necessary to find myselfhere? I think authenticity
Andi Maratosguest
frees up who you are. So if you're looking at1 aspect of yourself, it's really, really hard to onlydevelop your left arm when you're doing weight training.You kind of have to do the whole thing.And somebody else said to, you know, it's selfdevelopment is it's never ending.You there's always more you can do. Again, to go back toRogers, you know, we'll never reach the 7th stage, we'll never reachNirvana and pure enlightenment because there's alwayssomething new to discover.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. You're so right. So my fear sometimes is I'm actually gettingsucked back in the middle. I'm I'm kinda comfortable in whoI am, comfortable in what I do. I have a brand. I havea what I I have a stuff that I get on with. So I'm actuallydrifting back into into the middle again, not feeling soedgy. Maybe maybe my identity isn't edgy. Your
Andi Maratosguest
knowledge of both what it feels like to be onthe edge and your greater understanding of edgepeople. Mhmm. So in your place in themiddle, you are then an allyto everyone who needs you and your power, your knowledge, yourexperience to make a better space.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Well, don't get me wrong. Speak the language that we don't. Yeah.Don't get me wrong. I'm not looking to go right back into thehustle and bustle of the middle. I wanna find alittle oasis with a nice bit of grass, a palm tree, alittle bit of water there where I'm close enough to the middle, but I stillhave that that edge space, if you like.So I never wanna lose that feeling of freedom. I don't wanna feel like Ihave to comply to other people's expectations.And when you talk about being shouted at walking down the street, I wanna getto a point where I just go, yep. Okay. Fine.Whatever. Yeah. You see, that's not good enough. I want a place where there is
Andi Maratosguest
no churching at in the street. But being comfortable in my
Joanne Lockwoodhost
own skin Yes. Enough that I don't have to I don't have anyinternalized anger or fear or atthat person. I can just go I can just see them asmisguided. I can just see them as that's that's your opinion. It's it's notfact. Then it doesn't hurt? Doesn't hurt. It's it it'sjust as I describe it, it's graffiti on the wall. It's just something I driveby and read. It's not me. It's just them. And that's not about
Andi Maratosguest
putting armor on to, defendyourself against the strikes. It is about just,yeah, them just glancing off. They're notthey just don't hurt, they don't enterinto your world. I guess what you were just saying abouthow when you're in the middle, you don't think aboutthe outside. And it's the same thing.You know? They're so irrelevant to your experiencingthat you can just put them away as, oh, well, that's that that individual.Okay. That's it. I don't need to think about it. Is
Joanne Lockwoodhost
that Yeah. Completely.I Joanne back 4 or 5 years, I was I had learned tolove myself. I think it was probably the key thing. I hadn't learned to believein myself. I hadn't learned to value myself.And I think that was part of what gave meinspirations to find that who I was, that 1 that 1self. And it became Asking
Andi Maratosguest
permission from the world to be you? Yeah. That kind of
Joanne Lockwoodhost
stuff. Yeah. Feeling like I had to apologize. You internalizeso much of it because you see it in the media, you see it inthe press, you see it all over the place saying being you is wrong.And therefore, you internalize that I'm wrong. And when you whenyou let go of that and say, well, actually, I I'm okay. I'm cool. I'mright. I'm happy with being me. Actually, what you think is not relevant interms of how it makes me feel. And that's quitequite a wake up call 1 day. And it's I can't rememberexactly when it happened, but I remember thinking, wow, it feels soquiet now. I haven't I don't have that thought. Andthe other thing I found was having not havinga lie. You know, I'd lived my life with so many secretsinside my head, so many things I couldn't talk about. I think once you sharedthe biggest secret in your head, everything else is just a walk in the parkand I don't feel that I have to cover, hide, mask. IfI've made a mistake, if I've don't say I'm not proud of or whatever itmay be or I'm scared of something, I I feel empowered to sayit and let it out because I know that holding it in doesn'tserve any purpose. So it's, yeah, having no sequence is a isa really powerful place to be where I'm not saying I'm an open book byany means, but I don't have anything inside me that is I I I'd befearful of telling anybody. Yeah. There's a difference between
Andi Maratosguest
exposing yourself and everything about you to the worldand not lying to yourself. Soyeah. But you say, you make a mistake. Okay. People do.But, actually, also, I'm really proud of what I did andcelebrating that. Yeah. I I remember telling my
Joanne Lockwoodhost
mom about me, whenever it was, 4 or 5 years ago.And I always said to myself, unless I could tell my mom I wasn'thonest with the world, it was part of me saying,I've told my mom, therefore I'm not lying to anybody.But as I was keeping a secret from someone who I care deeply about, whosewhose views and thoughts mattered to me,Knowing I was keeping something from her meant I was I wasn't honest with everybodyelse. So, yeah, it was extremely powerful for me to to make sure II shared all that information.Maybe selfishly at the time, maybe I didn't think enough about how my momwould feel about it, but I was more worriedabout my feelings. But, no, with hindsight, it wasnecessary for both of us to move on. Yeah. And and
Andi Maratosguest
as children, we don't have control over what ourparents think. No. We don't.But we will never ever stop wanting their loveand approval. AndI guess thinking about what you'vejust said then,You're not always going to get it,But I think it's worththe risk of trying.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I I think I I this is 1 of these quotes. It'severything whoever wanted is on the other side of fear. I can't remember whosaid it now, but that's really powerful. And how often does that fear ofjudgment, fear of rejection, fear, whatever it maybe, stop you achieving what you want to achieve?And it's overcoming that fear that's in your headoften, isn't it? Yeah. And when you're so scared, of course, things
Andi Maratosguest
go blaa out ratherJoanne, in that thatmeasured space that you can thenallow some of their responses in andmaybe move forward because it you just threwit and ran away.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. Definite no. Definitely. It it yeah. I Iguess I suppose I'mlucky that I've been through that processpersonally, found myself the other side. So it was verytormenturous. I was often describe it as the Bermuda Triangle,that vortex where there was you hadto find an exit either the way you came in, the way you wannaget out, or just another path. But you you can't hangaround in that confusion zone. For too long. Otherwise
Andi Maratosguest
It'll rip your path. You'll get sucked into which your part yeah. Get sucked into
Joanne Lockwoodhost
it. Yeah. But I think that
Andi Maratosguest
you don't very rarely doesanyone come out on the path that they thought theywere going to be on when they went in.The the there will be some that it it change the itchanges you come out somewhere slightly different.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. But that that's exactly what I said earlier about the questioning area, isn't it?Hopefully, you Joanne find a calmness in that vortex to actually have thattime to think, what? Now I'm here. What I've got all the options open tome. Now where do I wanna be? And not feel you've gotthis predetermined exit Joanne. The exit of otherpeople's expectations are often are often your own desires.We feel that we've got to do something for somebody else. And that'sthat's a struggle as well. I mean, I'm not saying we shouldn't consider otherpeople's feelings completely. We must must factor them in.But but when they have agency over you, it can become,again, you're living someone else's life, not your own again.
Andi Maratosguest
Yeah. Checking and consulting, but being yourown agent. Mhmm. Yeah. I think
Joanne Lockwoodhost
also I recognize that other people had their ownfreedom of expression, their own freedom of choice, their own needs. Sojust because I was shifting myself to the edge,the other people around me had their right to not come with me, tostay in their comfort zone, to be who they wanted to be. And Ivery quickly realized that was part of the journey that we had I had toallow everybody around around me to pick their own pathYeah. And not say, I'm over here. You have to come with me.Because, no, people would push back and go, I don't wanna come with you. AndI go, oh, okay. That's fine. Yeah. And
Andi Maratosguest
that's that journey of self enlightenment,whatever it looks like, whatever path you takeit is and it's always going to be your peoplewill join you, People will share it.But they will always relateto the user they relate to.Jo if they like that you, then they're gonna carry onrelating to you. But if they don't,they might drift off, on their own path.So when I was doing my counselingtraining, you know, they said, oh, this will change. It's like, no. Of course itworks. What what? Never going to change any of us. We're allperfectly formed individuals, you know, we're well developed.But actually, no, it does. And you see moreclearly, you see what is real love, real affection, realrespect. And you've come to value thosefeelings from people much more clearly, butyou value it on their terms. I thinkthat's ratherthan trying to butt 2 realitiestogether. Is that making sense? I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
get that. Yeah. Because I think whenas you say, when you try and butt 2 realities together, you're not solvingany problem. You're not talking. You're not opening up the dialogue. You'rebutting. You're you're you're clashing. You're trying to force2 cultures together rather than unpick the bestbits from both. And I guess following that
Andi Maratosguest
through, if you develop yourself,you never lose becauseyou've you don'tfall apart horrifically. You can rebuildrelationships. You can take aspects thatthat are the right and healthy parts of those relationshipsrather than just throwing it all away andand it all breakingdown. And I mean, I guessthat's specifically talking about,LGBT plus coming out experience, but I thinkit's it's a truism for for much more about mentalwell-being and about authenticity.Yeah. That just if youbelieve that people are amazing, if you believethat they are in if you believe in people,you can believe everyone is actingon their best best motives even if you don't necessarily meetin a place of agreement.And it all comes around, and it's like, well, it's all been written about before,isn't it? But we all we discoverit for ourselves. We discover that truth, and everyone willdiscover their own version of that truth.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
But tell me a bit about Chrysalis. So you took over asCEO 4 and a bit years ago, was it? Around aboutthat? Yeah. End of 2017. So however many years ago that I'm not
Andi Maratosguest
sure. I think we've we've lost like 15 months, haven't we? Did somebody just justlike Thielman? Yeah. 4 years give or take with a bit of a COVID lockdown
Joanne Lockwoodhost
in the middle. You you inherited athe the reins of an organization that wasnot dynamic and not going as achieving what it could.So what what inspired you to takeover, and what have you kind of what have you imagineered,if you like, in that process? I think
Andi Maratosguest
because I knew what the organization could do. Just becauseit wasn't doing, it didn't mean it couldn't do it.And by that, I'm I'm talking about, you know,that that vision of really creating safespaces for everybody who needs the supportbecause in doing that, you create places forpeople to develop themselves and then you gradually make the worlda better place. Andthat mission of Chrysalis is is core to to mybelief, my mission. And so Iknew it was possible. Andwhen you're kind of on the edge of something, youcan see what's going well, but you can see maybe what you would change.I said, you know, even if something's brilliant, there's always gotta be something that youcan improve. Andso that was theopportunity to Jo, right, well, these things are great. This is whatneeds strengthening, but actually, where else do weneed things? And getting out thereand communicating the vision, communicating my vision,around the area, meeting with people like yourself and others who were like,yeah, we want to be allies.And and I guess justjust gathering you all up in the wake of, like, this is really exciting. Thisis really possible. AndI took you all on that journeyand you all had faith in me that we would come outand we have. We've come out withbigger, we're stronger, we've got over200 active members. Now I think, you know, we wewere around 50 back then.We've got solid data sets. We've taken all of that knowledge, all of that learning,all of that passion fromwithin and from all our allies andformed it into something that says, no. We're we're really we'regoing somewhere. Yeah. I've seen the
Joanne Lockwoodhost
change completely. I mean, I knew Christus a little bitbefore I met you in that pub in Southampton 1night, the London. I think that's where we first met. Yes.Yeah. And I've seen an organization thatwas in the shadows, almost like lurkingon the edge, right on the other edge in the dark shadows.
Andi Maratosguest
Yeah. The coming in shameful shadows. Yeah. The shameful shadows coming
Joanne Lockwoodhost
into this into the public view, building relationshipswith organizations, the public sector,with private sector clients, being proud ofnot only your own identity as a CEO, but also proudof promoting other people's identities. I think that's been a realshift, not just because it's also in society where peopleare are feeling less ashamed, less ashamed of whothey are. And I think Christmas is certainlyriding that wave and bringing people with the organizationto to to be prouder of who they are, not feel that they'rethey should hide. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. That that
Andi Maratosguest
taking that that drive to to be authenticand and and take it inwards and and puttingit outwards.Jo I think maybe to Jo back to our analogy about edges,Chrysalis was was trying to exist in the middleand didn't see the power of getting outside ofthat and just go, no.Difference is awesome. Difference isamazing. Let's not try and conform.Let's value every aspect of every single person whocomes to us as a volunteer,as a supporter, as a sponsor, as a as a member,and value and celebrate every aspect of eachindividual's diversity and difference.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And you've opened up new income streams, you've gone from a charity that wasI'm not saying destitute, but certainlyhand to mouth, week to week. We had 6 months left to
Andi Maratosguest
live. Andyeah. So so the first the firsttask I had was to fund my salary. So,it's only grateful to tutor trust the trustees there whoit's what they do, that they take dreams,and they trust and they show faith and they believe,and they showed faith in me, they showed faith in my dream.And that was enough to then be able to go to to theNational Lottery, who really believedin us. And and both of them have been amazing funders.And we're still small. I think 1of the great things about being smallis if somebody donate to Fiverr, if somebody does a 100 poundfundraiser on Twitch, that makes a real difference. It'syou're never just chucking money. It'swe're really light. We're really agile.We're massively, to quote the trustees, punching aboveour weightbecause we know what we do isabsolutely the best. We took whatthere was. We made it better, and we're not going to stopkeeping on with that improvement. There's a lotof people out there who've been hurt throughdenial, either themselves or through others, through discrimination,through hatred, and abuse.And they're gonna need our support.But, also, I think even if even if being trans hasnever caused you any challenges, I think you canstill come and and share parts of of what we'redoing. Come and celebrate. Come and help other people findauthenticity. It's, yeah, notYeah. Just get involved. Like I said toyou earlier, everyone is can be an ally to everyoneelse. You just need to reach out different. At the end of the
Joanne Lockwoodhost
day, we are we're all different.Yeah. So I'm I'm binary or nonbinary, queer. I still see myself as as queer aswell. So we all have our own sense of self, so we're we eachneed our own allyship. And, Imean, the world isn't a dangerous place at the moment, but there's a lot ofstuff out there, isn't it? Right now, you look at the media,Twitter, it's if you immerse yourself into thatanti trans rhetoric, it's it's quite a quite astrain on on your mental health. I mean, I'm I'm a fairly resilient person,and I get worn down and tired by yet anotherattack, yet another article bythesesupposed charities and well,if you like, with a with doctor and professor and theirtitles quoting their their flavor of genderideology, if you like. I think
Andi Maratosguest
none of none of that is lived experience.It's exactly what we said. It's take a look inside anddon't be scared. When, when Ido our training, you know, socelebrate your gender identity.Everybody should be proud to be themselves, be proudlycisgender, be proudly white, be proudlyof this heritage or that heritage. It's who you are.Yeah. Every every cis person who introducesthemselves as a cis person because they're proud of itis someone who's just got that littlebit of extra self awareness. Doesn't mean you have to,Yeah. And,and I think that has actually changed in my mind, that's changedover the last few years. So when I started,doing this, I talk about pronouns and people would look at you blankly, andwe'd have to go through the English explanation of what pronounsare. And now pronouns are everywhere.And they might even make them onto Facebook 1 of these daysofficially.And, JoI so I trapped myself there. And the samewith the term cisgender becausewhen a label is given to people, ithurts. It's itchy. It doesn't fit.Trans as a label, so any transgender and all theolder words, they're itchy. They don't fit. They don't adequatelydescribe. Also, they will be usedas terms to harm, terms to hurt.But when people own thelabel and affirm the label, thenit kind of rubs some of those edges off. So it fitsa bit better for other people who want to try it onand to say, well, okay, it's a bit more roomy in here.It's not that marginalised box that I thought it was.And I'm okay in this space. Or,nah. I tried it on and it didn'tfit. And why should you not try on the cisgender label and determine it doesn'tfit? It's just the same as trying on the trans label and determine it doesn'tfit.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
For sure. And, yeah, we've all tried on various labels and decidethat's uncomfortable or I'm in the wrong room or Itried the right handed label and I know I'm left handed andor slightly ambidextrous. So, yeah, I know Well, I just don't like labels, and I'm
Andi Maratosguest
not trying any of your labels on. I am just me. And don'task me my pronouns because, quite frankly,that's none of your business. There's another 1.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Just just call me Jo. Just call me Andi. That's the other way I'm lookingat it. Jo we're right in the middle of 5 months,that's central 5 month. There's a lot of lot of logochanging going on. Are you are you seeing a lot of realaction, real change going on the work you do, or we're just seeing alot of transwashing and pinkwashing going on?
Andi Maratosguest
I think the people you really need to ask that of are the people inthose corporations, the actual staff.I get lots of inquiries and they'relovely inquiries about how we can make our service moretrans inclusive. Can we talk to some trans people about why they don't find ourservice trans inclusive?And I said, well, absolutely, I can work with you. Weconsult with you on this. We can have 3 hour training sessions. We can properlygive you the experience of what it is to be gender diverse, etcetera,etcetera, etcetera. These are all things that you will need toput your hand in your pocket to get because we're a tiny charity andwe need your money. But I will give you for free. Haveyou written your transition at work policy? Because if you haven't,why do you think nobody's coming to you? If you've gotany support for the trans people in your organisation.I know we've got to wait another year for the results ofthe census, but that's,I'm really looking forward to those stats.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I agree. Those stats will give thenecessary evidence to ensure that the support is given.
Andi Maratosguest
Yeah. Respect as well. So respect, acceptance,just, that it's areality. We in the UK, we've gotan opportunity there. We're literally the 1st country to ever actually dothat. The opportunity to take our place back at the topof the countries that are great to beLGBT plus rather than slip in further and further down becausewe've got this weird idea thatthat there is there's an argument about somebody'sreality. There is no no argument ofI am me. Yeah.I think conflict to someone else's identity versus another
Joanne Lockwoodhost
person's, like, there is no clash. There is no No. There is there isno conflict in that. Being trans, being queer, being LGBTQ
Andi Maratosguest
plus, it's an aspect of human diversity.And that's as simple as that. I I do, I just wannasay I use the term queer with the caveat that Ifully respect that for some people that isnot a word that they feel comfortable with. They certainly don't feelcomfortable with using, and I'mnot using it for anyone,for whom that would feel uncomfortable. For me,it's the word that adequately describesthat none of those other labels are quite me.But to go back to thinking about corporate prideand, you know, pink washing, trans washing, orwhatever. Put yourmoney where your mouth is. Support your yourlgbt networks. Yeah. If yourgroup wants a float at Brighton Pride, then putsome money behind giving them a float at Brighton Pride. Butmake sure you've reviewed your policies at the sametime. Chat about all the things that you do. You know,pride 365. And if you can show that you're doingthat, then fantastic. But for goodness sake, don't stick up a rainbowin your pub window, when you'reon the outskirts of the pride square and doabsolutely nothing to challenge the homophobic andtransphobic behavior of your punters.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Amen. Completely agree for sure.Well, I can't believe we've hit an hour already. We've been yackingaway. We didn't get to talk about some of the other things we we werewe were thinking about beyond gender diversity.
Andi Maratosguest
We we knew it was going to go in a different direction. Yeah. We knewwe knew it wasn't gonna be what we planned. We'll come back to that another
Joanne Lockwoodhost
day because I I've read a blog article back at Valentine's Day about the Mand S Colin and Connie love nestcake you could buy as a gift. And my my blogalong the been long lines of MNS did a a really great job withtheir LGBT sandwich. They put guacamole in it, created this rainbowsandwich. But on Valentine's Day, they they created thisbinary cis het cakefor people. And I 365. Why don't wehave a Colin and Colin option, aConnie and Connie or Connie, Connie, and Colinor Colin, Colin, and a Connie Jo that youcould mix and match your own cake. Maybe that theywere gender neutral, not using such gendered names as well Jo that you could nameyour cake, name your characters, and you couldthen be more queer inclusive or or genderdiversity and sexual diversity inclusive. I think
Andi Maratosguest
just, yeah, move away from gender being the defaultcategorization. For goodness sake, it's, like, literally 5%of who we are. Mhmm. I I do respect that some
Joanne Lockwoodhost
people find it cute. Some people find that part of their identity,but provide options where for people where it doesn't fit their identityor they want to explore a different side of their personality.
Andi Maratosguest
Yeah. No. No. III see what you're saying. But if if the concept ofValentine's Day is romance and love,then gender hasn't necessarily goteverything to do with that. That's 2 people meeting.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Or 3 or 4 or 10. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It
Andi Maratosguest
could be whatever. Try it to nintlisten. Yeah. We can evolve those
Joanne Lockwoodhost
stereotypical days celebrations.And I'm not saying we should lose the feeling of Mother's Day orFather's Day for people who aren't who don't identify in thatway. And I was looking on Moonpig and I sawsome some Father's Day cards to my 2 bestdaddies, and I thought that was fantastic. There's some really greatdiverse thinking going on in the Moon Pick card range. But
Andi Maratosguest
I found Thoughtful have got some very good, more diversecards as well. So, yeah, other other card provider dictates. Yeah. Youhave you have to dig for LG Plus, don'tyou? And maybe what you said about,corporate prime, every time somebody does something,it's a little bit more inclusive.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
What we need to be doing is having it right at the beginning in themarketing, the design, the the ideation stage. Someonealways says, how can we make AAA queeror a gender diverse or a sexually diverseinclusive version of this product to make sure it's inclusive for all people?
Andi Maratosguest
Yeah. Yeah. Go back to core principles. What is the purpose of thisparticular thing, and how can we make sure everybody canhave a a slice of cake? Yeah. I think we've gone beyond
Joanne Lockwoodhost
being worried about upsetting people. I think I'd like to think most of themost most people in in in this country are now nolonger afraid of upsetting people by having a a gay cake orwhatever it may be, affecting their brand. So I'd like to think we've movedpast that, in which case that's our challenge, isn't it, toto corporate UK?
Andi Maratosguest
We all want cake. Everybody wants cake.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. And we don't necessarily want straight cake or cis cake. Wewant all cake, all identities, and we wanna feel part of it. We wanna beincluded in the same way. Please have vegan cake as well. Veganvegan queer cake. Yeah. That's what we wantWithout a rainbow all over it, just just nice cake. It could be a areally nice Victoria's bun or a carrot cake or something. Just something something reallyyummy. Yeah. Thank you. On thatnote on that note, so how can people listening supportChrysalis? What's what's the best way to get in touch with you? So
Andi Maratosguest
we are at Chrysalis gim on all of thesocial media. So that is Chrysalis, spelledchrysalisgimfor gender identity matters. Or you cango on the website, www.chrysalisgim.org.uk.If you haven't had enough of me, I do blog weekly on theCEO blog there. So you can alwayscheck out what I'm thinking, and you can dropus a message through Facebook, through Twitter, through thewebsite as well. And I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
have personal experience knowing that you can use AmazonSmile and choose Chrysalis as the beneficiary of your charity donationfrom Amazon. Yeah. I also know that on Facebook, when it's yourbirthday, you could nominate a charity and you can also nominate Chrysaliswithin that. And Just Giving, you'll set up on there as well. And
Andi Maratosguest
many other ways I think you can find us on Just Giving. And,if you go to, charitable.travel when you'rebooking your hollibobs, you can select Chrysalisas your charity there, and we will get 5% ofthe cost of your holiday. So if you're planning something maybe fornext year, then do consider us.Yeah. There's there's lots of different ways we're we're registered on Give As You Liveand and all those other places as well. So yeah. And like I say,every every fiber, every pound really willmake a difference to the service that we deliver. So Indeed.Or Yeah. Get involved as a volunteer. Come and findout more about what we do. And, again, drop us a message.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And I'm a passionate supporter of Chrysalis. I always wheneverI'm asked to nominate a charity, Chrysalis is the only nameon the list. And you get myAmazon smiles and my Just Givings and my Facebooks wherever I can. Soand also I give my time. I'm proud to be associated with Chrysalisand I know how much support Chrysalis and you personally gaveme in my vortex days where I wasconfused, and I think it's only right that everybody'shad the opportunity. So fantastic. Well, thankyou, and a huge thank you to the listener. Thank you, listener, for tuningin and getting to the end here. Fantastic. Thank you very much.Please do subscribe to keep updated on future episodes of theInclusion Bites podcast. That's B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends.Tell your colleagues. Get them to sign up and subscribe as well. I've got anumber of other exciting guests lined up, and I'm sure you'll be inspired by themover the next few weeks months also. And, of course, if you'd like to bea guest or if you have any comments, feedback, suggestionson how we can improve, send those to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.I'd love to hear from you, and I'd love for you to be a guest.So my name is Joanne Lockwood, and it's been an absolute pleasure to host thispodcast for you today. Catch younext time.
Andi Maratosguest
Bye.
