Joanne Lockwoodhost
Hello everyone my name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for the inclusion Bites podcast in this series I have interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had the conversation about the subject of inclusion belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. Actually join me in the future then please do drop me line to Jo Dot Lockward and c change happen dot code it uk that's swlychangehadot code uk you can catch up with all of the previous shows on Itunes Spotify and the usual places so plug in your headphones grab a d caf. Ah let's get going today is episode 59 with the title dare to be you and I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Shelley Bridgman Bridgedman Shelley Bridgman describes herself as a performance coach psychotherapist and workshop facilitator. But I asked Shelley Bridgman to describe her superpower. She said that if she is very good at being with people who are struggling or in deep pain and helping them chart a way forward. Hello Shelley Bridgman welcome to the show. Thanks.
Hello Joanne really good to be here with you today.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So chelly dare to be you What does that mean.
Well, ah, apart from the fact, it's ah, a title of a podcast that I'm launching I think that whenever I've done any work as a therapist or coach always seems to me that what we're really doing is. Uncovering ourselves and who we really are you know, being our authentic selves. It's one of those glib expressions that people use you know, be authentic and it's very hard sometimes for people to so peel off the layers of protection and actually. Be themselves. You know sometimes it takes depending on your circumstance takes quite a lot of courage I would say probably for most people it does but until we do that we're never really being fully ourselves and really using the gifts that we've got so that was the thinking behind it and when I and when you. Mention my superpower I was willing to have to put the t-shirt on with an s on it or something but I think for me well where I started out I suppose was um I was a samaritan volunteer back in the day long long time ago now and. Was my sort of first introduction to working with people who were in a bad place and I learned that at doing that how to just be with somebody who was really struggling and I think I then evolved to a place where I wanted to be a bit more proactive and to. Do things to help people move forward. But in essence the the job stays the same and when you first meet somebody if they're in a bat. You know you have a very different conversation with somebody if they're standing on a bridge ready to jump off than if you do when you're across a desk and they're telling you that they're feeling depressed or suicidal. And think about it you you you wouldn't speak to them in the same way. So I suppose it was just over a period of time and training and everything I was just learning how to really do that and I think I evolved now into a place where I'm able to be with somebody. Was in that low spot without panicking and without trying to fix them quickly and first thing people need to do is to know they're being listened to and as somebody who actually cares a fig about what happens to them. That's the start reading so that would be my.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah, there's an expression I heard some time ago that everything you've ever desired is on the other side of fear and that re resonated me with me because I realized that.
Short answer into that.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Fear is what holds us back fear of humiliation fear of rejection fear of just being seen sometimes and and when you read when you actually take that step. You think you're going to step off a cliff. But really, it's just an inch and you just and you just carry on walking and the the reality of fear is it's.
No.And yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Often in your own mind isn't it.
Um, well, it's an interesting one because I don't so I don't disagree with anything. You've said other than saying that I don't like the expression that you know that people use the acronym false evidence appearing real there. There's something disempowering about that because.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah.
Sort of implies where you're stupid to feel it. You shouldn't be feeling it and fear is real how we respond to it of course is a choice and if you're an existentialist. You'll believe that ultimately all fear is the fear of death. But I always think fear comes down to. Two basic fears really fear of failure and fear of rejection and depending on your upbringing and your experiences you'll have a ah sort of leaning towards 1 or other of those. So although we can argue that it's not rational. And largely. It's not you know like you just said fear of standing up saying something. Well no, one's likely to shoot you but at the same time. It feels a bit like it or it can do and for members of society. You are constantly feeling battered and attacked. Of course they you know they get. They get resilient and a bit reserved so they're very wary about opening up. But I think the the job of mine actually whether I'm a psychotherapist or a coach is to help people have a strategy to overcome that fear so to say look i. Ah, get it I get why you're feeling it but actually these are the things that you could maybe do and you feel about that you know could try a we can try b and um because I think you know people always say we're always fearful of not being enough and I think that's an oversimplification. Because there are some people especially people who come from minorities where their big fear is not so much that they're enough but that they're almost too much. You know there's no space to me in the world I'm too difficult for people which is a very different fear and. You know people from minority groups. Be it. You know your your whole thing is about diversity and inclusion so many of the people you will speak to or attract will feel in a minority whether it's disability sexuality gender whatever it is so I think. It's not always about feeling enough. You know it is that sometimes it's about you know that trope of um if you really know me, you might not like me, you know you're saying that you like me if you really get to know me were you because my experience is when people do they don't you know that might be. Playing out in their subconscious. so yeah so fear is the big e fear is the biggie. But yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah I I think I and I think I I lived a life for much of my life that involved alcohol because I I and I wouldn't have say alcohol was a coping mechanism. It became a habit. It became.
And.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I became a person with it and without it I maybe didn't like myself enough or I was I found myself not enjoying what I was doing with alcohol made it more enjoyable something. It took a long time to realize that if I took alcohol away.
And and. You know? Yeah, when it removes your innovations is it.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I Could then make better choices about whether I really wanted to do something or not and.
Yeah, yeah, I always remember the legendary rock drama Ginger Baker you know food died a year or two ago didn't he sadly from cream and I remember him saying because they tried just about every substance known to mankind I think. And he um he said I've suddenly realized one day that I could still play the drums if I wasn't high but didn't even need a drink so he kind of worked himself into an assumption that without substances and let's face it works a substance. You know people. Work all the time as a deflection it numbs the pain. You know I was good at drinking. Um and it just numb my mind and if I was if I'd had a lot to drink then I wasn't with myself I could just get through. But of course you learn that.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And.
Quite a high cost to pay when you do that because you're not actually being yourself and of course ultimately it's going to damage your body but I don't want to get all preachy about that. We all do things like model that we shouldn't But yeah, so we all find a way of numbing the pain and what you've highlighted is that.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And.
We've all got a fear of something whether it's acceptance rejection. Whatever it might be and we find very creative ways to avoid the pain without really facing it and I think my job when I'm working people is to say look we you you can face this I'll do it with you for a while. And you won't be consumed by it. You will come through it. You just need to take that first step. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah, you're so right? it's it is that that first step is is often the the challenge isn't it because even well the first challenge is identifying. There is a step to take and then once you've identified the step is is having the.
And yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Ah, courage or the support to take it and I mean I remember my own my own gender transition five six years ago that massive first conversation was enormous. It was the biggest thing in my life. It was what do i.
Yes, yeah, so.Yeah, yeah, because you didn't get no and you didn't know for sure what the reaction would be so it was that it was slipping off the cliff in a way.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
You can't take it back Sometimes these things are binary Once you've said something you can't unsay it. Can you.And.
Because you kind of probably thought well the people you first told you probably wouldn't have told them had you thought they were going to be very negative but you didn't actually know until you did it. So it's that first step forward and and we could go into all sorts of cliches here. Couldn't we like a journey of a. A mile starts with a step and all that stuff we all know that but to actually do it is not quite the same as reading it in a book and but my experience is that when you funny enough I was talking about this at the weekend at conference. My experience is that when you step out good people join you when you're trying to do something amazing people will show up but I won't show up to take that step and that's the scary bit and that's really what we all have for.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
You Ah another Cliche is you know you know who your true friends are and your moment of need and you you step out to the light you you you take your covers off if you like and the people that run away.
Yeah, yes.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Probably weren't your friends they they weren't the people you were looking for everybody else.
No, and I I and I would hazard a guess because I don't know you well enough. But I would hazard a guess that some of the ones you thought would be difficult weren't and vice versa 1 or 2 the ones you thought would be okay perhaps weren't you know because you never quite know what's going on with people. Do you until you actually.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And.
You know Confront it with something like that you take a guess.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah, yeah, completely there was a ah friend I had from school I think we probably met at the age of 10 or something like that. Um, and I thought we were kind of good enough friends and he effectively walked away. Just um.
Yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Said through other people that he he doesn't want to get involved with me doesn't want to know me doesn't want to talk about it just goodbye and it's like oh not even talk to me. Not even not even go I don't get it but you're still still you It was just no to want do want to engage and go and I found that really strange.
Yeah, first. Yeah, yeah, yeah I remember somebody who wasn't my closest friend but said through his wife I'd like I'd rather think of him as being dead and um, sorry.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
This is.
Um, I came back with something unrepeatable, um, and then it said but you know I'm very much alive but but then there were other people who I thought oh god that can be who weren't you know Mike my um, my experience is people who are secure in themselves don't have a problem with most things. It's the people who are insecure have the problem because they don't want anyone to think oh why you a bit different so I give a lot away. You know they say more about themselves than they would have done about you. You know.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And.
Um, that walked away like tell you far more. Don't they about Air insecurity.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah, and I I happen say to people. Thank you for telling me ah I don't have to guess what you're thinking, you're telling me and it's fine I don't need to worry about you. It's it's quite empowering knowing what people think.
You know? Yeah, it's quite interesting because I'd made an assumption out of my oldest friend probably we were at school together from the age of 9 or 10 and lives in America now and we. Lost touch and um I knew they would have heard that I had changed gender at some point and I tried to contact them once and I didn't get a response so I thought oh obviously they got a bit of a problem I let it go and literally 35 years on I suddenly got an email. And cut long story short what had happened they hadn't seen my communication and they'd been afraid to contact me because they didn't know what to say so I'd caused us to be like 2 bookends so it was actually my it was my fault really because if I'd been braver and persisted I would have found out.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
By.
But actually they wanted to stay in touch and and I'll be going and having a holiday subject to world restrictions in America in in the next few months to stay with them. But yeah so I could have lost a good.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So yeah.
Friend if had I you know had he not sort of um, overcome his kind of nervousness. He was just afraid to say the wrong thing Casey Upset me and there was me thinking the reverse this goes to show.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
It's interesting when you say that' you've just reminded me about how I prehargge my father um I've I've not had a good relationship. My father for many years. It's kind of been a bit arm's length ah Christmas and birthdays.
Right.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Polite conversation. So he's also quite in his senior years I think he's 89 this year and he's he's quite deaf hardly hears. Um, so I ended up writing him a letter just telling about. What me and what I was doing and and he wrote me back a letter um, saying don't be hasty. We can fix this which I I took as a kind of ah, an old school rejection type thing and then I slept rather thanly to that I slept on it for a year and a half I didn't speak to him and I wrote him again said look.
What.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
It would sadden me if we never spoke again. Um I don't want us to never speak again. It would it would be sadest thing in my life If if if this stay between us now I I just want to to meet you and talk to you and and say hi so is kit you came around and he wasn't particularly covered with my pronouns and particularly covered with my name.
In yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
But I thought well to be fair in scale of things that doesn't matter. Actually I I want to have a a ah last period of life relationship with my father and he came around two weeks ago and he used my he used my name correctly every time. Ah. Avoided pronouns mostly I think he probably used my name when he needed to and I thought wow that's fantastic I missed I think I misjudged him I think I I assumed that he he wouldn't love me I assumed he would reject me and I've yeah ah completely surprised.
Oh.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And and a lot of that was in my head because I thought I knew him and I didn't.
Yeah, but you see what you've highlighted is the fact that you know we all have an element of fear and reticence to overcome and um and the problem with I have this all the time when I'm with clients is. I will say look you can love your parents. You can hate them. But the 1 thing you cannot do is be indifferent because you're conning yourself. You know they they matter you might you might not like them and you have every right? not to if they've been nasty but just to pretend to yourself. They were no consequence whatsoever.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And.
Personally I think it's a bit of a delusion because you know there is a connection and um, it might be difficult but you can't really ignore it or if you do you do it at your peril but there we go and yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So yeah.It It actually inspired me to think about him differently and actually think more more warmly about him we we we had a difficult relationship in my teens I was I was not easy I had lot things going on my head I I probably I want maybe I was disappointing for him at that time.
Yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Um, but I remember him in a different light but having met him again recently and he wherever wherever preconceived whatever historical views. He's had of of Trans people. He.
So.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
He's still my dad and he still acts on my dad. He still supports me still interested in me. Yeah yeah I could have and that would I now realize that that would have been me doing that. Not him.
Yeah, and you yeah and you always be a dad and you could have slammed the door and closed it forever couldn't you but you didn't in would have been a tragedy. Yeah um, and would have been very sad. And and it's um, it's quite interesting because um I had a difficult relationship with my father but when he was um, he was almost ninety eight when he died I died so he lived a a good long life and he was telling me because he got had dementia near the end. But. As I jokingly put and I wouldn't want to diminish the impact of dementia but he literally forgot you didn't like me and we had some really interesting conversations and he was telling me about and he was and he was born in what 196 so he was a little boy when the first world war was going on. And like all families in North London and like all families of most families that generation they were quite big and he he told me the story when he was about um twelve years old of a telegram boy arriving going into the house and his mom coming out saying. Yeah, um, find your dad and tell him that Billy's been killed in France so this was my dad's brother. He died in the trenches and um and my father didn't they did. He didn't have any shoes. So yeah, um, they literally were very poverty- stricken. And he ran the length of the holloway road in North London so if any londoners know that part like it's a long road to find his dad on the essex road who was laying cobbles and the reply was tell him tell your ma I try and get off early and he wasn't being callous. He knew if he packed up and went home. He didn't get any money couldn't feed the kids. There was no welfare state and when I heard that my heart softened a bit because I sort of thought. Yeah I I cannot know what a tough time it was for him as a child so he grew up with a very hard. Skin so having somebody like me as a child wasn't easy for him I'm not condoning what he did because he was quite difficult I just saw a different side to him and I heard that story and there's always 2 sides to every attitude and there's a difference between.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So.
Condoning bad behavior and trying to seek out. What makes someone tick What makes them the way they are. You know it's no excuse for murdering somebody. But for we know that person had a wretched life and was.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah, um, no.
Severely hurt by the person. They've killed. You know who will need to judge never've never known a murder but you never know what's gone on behind the eyes. We've gone into a deep place Joanne with that.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
We have gone into deep place. Yeah this I'm just looking at some of your bio that you wrote earlier one one thing to say is you passionately believe that every human being has genius within them and should be free to express their gifts for who they are and that's a kind of a core.
Good. Yeah, great. Yeah, absolutely.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Ah, yeah, fundamental human right? really isn't it. So why is it so difficult sometimes for people to to accept to be accepted sometimes in society and.
Well and I and I think we collude with it some of us who you know are in a minority we buy into the trope that it's a tough fight and we kind of shrink back a bit and and it's ah it's ah, understandable. But I genuinely believe that you know and I've met I've worked with young people who had severe problems in 1 way or another physical mental. Both and was good at something you know I mean I was like oscar wells one of my favorite writers. Ah the world's full of endless. Oscar quote. But yeah, his very famous 1 of course was have to be yourself because everyone else is taken or something but but he meant it I think at quite a profound level and we're all good. We are all good at something. Um, and we we've all got a unique contribution to make.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And.
Um, God the world needs it. You know, um, and nations are the same look. What's going on in the world. So we can't change the world ourselves can change our little bit of it. Get it wrong. Get up again and be the best We can be um, you know look.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So.Yeah, yeah.
I'm a coach and I'm a psychotherapist are there other psychotherapist and coach. Yes, are they better than me a lot of them probably are they don't do it the way I do it and I don't do it the way they do it and I'll hit the spot with some clients not with others and they will do the same So No league table. About whether you're the best this or the best that just gotta be the best you can be and and as though you know we're not going to get measured against somebody else. It's not.. It's not the premieer league where somebody wins it and somebody gets relegated um and interestingly the best coaches you know.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Okay.
Sports coaches are the ones that obsess about being the best you can be not about winning which sounds a bit counter counterintuitive. But the the great ones are the ones that get the best out of people you know.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yes.
And and the trophies come along Anyway, as a byproduct. Um.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So I'm experiencing that I have a personal trainer. Um he he gives me a yeah, a good workout twice a week and he is is is pushing me to my limit not pushing me to his limit he will I will get well done some fantastics.
My. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
When I'm going when I'm being the best I can be and and that's that's the power of a really good trainer and coach is to take me to my edge not beyond my edge and that I I really respect that So I'm always a bit giving what I can give to the max.
And absolutely yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and the chances are if you're in a sports field. For example. You will win things Anyway, you know, but um, you know for every Gold medallist. There are a lot of good people that are excellent in what they do and I mean it must be wonderful to win. Ah an Olympic medal. But if you come second does it mean your rubbish.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So.
Suppose it would in some parts of the world or in some people's eyes. But actually if you've come from I always remember being very inspired and really show my age now. But I remember ah probably I probably read about as just a wiggle out of that one but in the sixty olympics. There was a. And american sprinter called Wilma Ruollf and if you google her she was amazing I think she was in a wheelchair until she was 9 or 10 or something and won a gold medal in a sprint you know I mean that's what you call doing something amazing. The fact that she could even run the race and get in the team.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
This is.
Was an achievement and then she goes on and wins it I mean that's just phenomenal to be able to do that I mean that's inspiring. You know.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
But when you're in that situation. You don't set out to be inspiring or brave or a role model. You're you're just doing what you do aren't you and I've.
Yeah, and she probably I don't know her well enough but don't know at all but my guess is she was just determined to be the best she could be and she wouldn't want to. She didn't want to be defined by the fact that she and I think she'd had polio or something and she didn't want to be defined by it Now. Sometimes it would be physically impossible because you can't change it and we do at least have Para olympics now. But in her case she actually managed to overcome it totally. But that doesn't mean somebody. You can't is deficient because there must be a point where you you weigh be your mindset.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And.
Just can't do it. You know if your body is restricted because of a disability you can't change that with a different attitude gets back to the fear thing is fear real or not well. It is real doesn't mean you have to be defeated by it but to tell somebody you're imagining being fearful. Just would disempower them because they think oh my god what heils wrong with me whereas somebody like how I'm talking about her now hundred years later you know because it's just such an amazing story. So um, yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And.See you you without giving any secrets away you you you gender transitioned at some point a while ago didn't you and you were married at the time yet. Ah.
So yeah, just loved it just after the bo war it was well it was in the 1980 well I think I did earlier but I vouched myself as an older person anyway because.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Ah, trying to out I try not to out you as a trans person but I'm outing you as an older person there. Ah.
Though my father was in his forty s when he had me if you do the mass. You can tell I'm not 35 anymore but um yeah it it was in the 1980 s and yeah, it's a different world then but that's what it was.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
The.And I mean now I mean I mean I I I transitioned six years ago so I transitioned in in the in the well for 202010 to 2020 decade um and I've I've grown up in a world where I transition where.
Um.Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I was on the up curve Trans Inclusion Trans acceptance the that the society was becoming positive which gave me the courage and confidence to say it will be okay which is completely different to where we are today. But when you when you were exploring your identity. It was kind of boosted in the.
Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Trans people are weird Trans people are kind of outliers. They're kind of there's little knowledge but they're almost like you What was ignored to a point were you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it was interesting I was um I'm speaking conference and shared this ah I had ah my own business at the time and 1 of my clients. Said to me look you know we really like and we done some great work but we can't have our brand associated with somebody like you be bad for us I mean now they'd be saying. Where's the where's the diversity box. Let me tick it and then he said so we think it's time for a change I Thought oh the irony.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And.
So So yeah, but but you know I think I'm a great believer that everything's different at different times I think it's better or worse I think in some ways Now. You know? and um, one of the reasons I'm passionate about supporting young people is kind of hard for them now because the world's telling them that they're deluded or they're not right when I did it. You're weird and you you know so you could fight back or not so in some ways It's a lot better. But in other ways I think there's still a lot of work to do. Um, you know people's very existence gets challenged and the media can be very hostile and it's very toxic. Um, so in so you know say it may have been harder in some respects.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
There's a lot more here. Yeah, yeah.
In my era. But then I think today's got its own different challenges I don't think it's it's easier or harder than it was. It's different.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So yeah, the stories in the papers in your area era and um, somebody may know Jackie Gavin when she transitioned there was lots of shock horror front page of the sun expose a type stuff and it was like storming a teacup move on.
Yeah m.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Okay, maybe not in your life been in in their life. But now it's ah it's barrage sustained attacks day in day out almost like trying to erase Trans people from Society completely.
Yeah, yeah.Yeah, yeah I think it's a yeah, well what I call it is a gaslighting is this thing about you don't really exist. You're crazy gun. Get yourself fixed. You know that's the trope isn't it at the moment.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah.
And I work with young people all the time who um, who are you know are in a bad place because of that you know because their a to were not made to but they feel Inferior. So My job is to help them understand actually look. You can choose how you respond to this. Don't have to be defined by that.. It's not easy, but we can empower people and you don't have to put up with you know what people are telling you what's important to you. You know my life is about the work that I do you know I yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I.
If I I don't know about legacies but I've got 2 amazing grandchildren I mean that's the coolest thing ever got a grandson and a granddaughter I mean how blessed am I they're amazing and my my 2 daughters are fantastic human beings. You know. So. Ah, can focus on that or I can pick up the the daily fail or whatever the paper of the day is that has some derogatory headline and I can read that and take it in I can choose not to so but you know not easy for everybody else and that's why. That's why we have to sort of help empower people and and show them that there's a choice and they can be different and help people explore it as well. So they're not absolutely sure that they they're doing the right thing thought so many years that having a a sexuality that wasn't.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And.So.
Heterosexual was illegal for god's sake. Not just frowned upon but actually breaking the law and we were only going back 40 or fifty years for that I mean when we think of it now we oh we you know we look at it now when you think god I can't believe that even happened but at the time.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And then and then section 28 we'll talk about? yeah.And.
It was common and um so you know the world is in a different place in ah um, but we've still got a lot of work to do and you know.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I way I've woke up this morning listen to reports from the United States around the supreme court this document leaker at ah repealing the abortion laws that was set up in the 1973 I think it was.
Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Which means that each state can now have its own leds to decide whetherre abortion is legal in their state and they think that that's why to me? Personally, it's the backward step I saw that Amazon were now funding.
Yeah, it's what will mean? of course that women just have to just have to cross the but you know they'll just go to the next state won't name. It's mad you know and.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Expanded their health care provision to include supporting women who wanted to travel out of state for for for treatment. It's it's.
Yeah, yeah, yeah I mean it's a and the thing is this So I think that's a good example because for me, everyone is entitled to their opinion or their belief about whether a termination is justified or not. But you don't have the right to do is to dictate that to to women they they for my money they they have it. It's their choice. You may or may not agree with it. But I don't think it's for society to tell them what they have to do you can believe it's right or wrong. That's your belief and that you can do that about anything. You may not like it if you're homophobic get on with it. Don't impose it on gay people if you're transphobic don't pillory Trans people take your prejudice. Keep it deal with it.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So.
Yeah I can't change someone's mind but I'm not going to allow them to dictate who I am and how I feel that's my choice.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And so when you were so say growing up in the 80 s when you are maturing in the eighty s whatever of a better way of putting it it. Yeah for growing up before that I I think I left school in 81 so yeah it was ah a bit before that there was a.
Because I sadly I grew up a bit before and I.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
A ruling wasn't there where a a I think it was a lord or an Earl married um a trans woman and under traditional laws and they they were married and then it was ah was it the divorce settle or something that they were they were arguing a.
Yeah, yeah, now tell you what happened? Well actually you've just highlighted a really important case in the history of the of of trans people you're referring to April Ashley and who.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And.
I don't if you know this but she sadly died not that long ago just a few weeks ago and I met her I and I interviewed her for a magazine on April back in the 1960 s married Lord Arthur Corett and April was actually born the son of a liverpool docker. And um, so there was a class thing as well and and and the marriage faltered and she told me this story and oh that was well documented in the press and in the in the 1960 s unbelievably um, when you got divorced. It wasn't automatic and a party could defend it so you had to prove something like infidelity or violence or or separate whatever and so when he sought a divorce she fought it so it went to the to the courts. And Mr Justice ormarrod ruled on it and he um because what happened was his lawyers went for the fact, well look. You know this woman woman was born a male so legally, there's still a man and 2 men can't marry because of goes we'll way before same-sex marriage. So it's it's never a legal marriage so we go for an annulma and Mr Justice Orrod ruled in his favor I mean there was a lot more to it than this and he uttered the immortal words nobody can change their chromosonal sex. So the die was cast because we have a law of precedent. Whereby trans people could never change their birth certificate and of course that stayed the same up until a gender recognition act in 2004 when it became law a year later where people could apply an April blesser got her recognition all those years later. And so that's what you call a trailblazer being dragged through the courts and you can imagine the headlines you can write your own derogatory headline and but the interesting thing is Mr. Justice orrod did later say he regretted the comments. He'd made. Because he realized the impact that it would have so.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Because Trans people weren't that common were they they were very well living under the covers. There was not a lot of his ability was a.
Yeah, exactly I mean they weren't very public and April had the the benefit that she was a very glamorous looking woman I mean she was a dancer in France at the carousel club worked with people like Cu Chael in these early trailblazers. All trans women in those days who were changed and and the first one I was aware of was Christine Jorgensen who was um, again, a very glamorous purse and was one of Harry Benjamin's first patients Harry Benjamin being the um. Clinician in America as you probably know who started the first person to sort of recognize really that this was a medical thing that needed to be helped. These were not just crazy people who had it in their heads that they'd rather look different and they got to understand that they were very convinced and.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
5
And and determined to make those changes so she was fascinating actually when I met that because we she was a bit of a duchess and I mean that in a nice way. She had the sort of blue rinse I mean she was in her eighty s when I met her I think and. And I was granted an interview I did an interview for a magazine and I went in and she said would you like something to drink and it was um it was a heat wave and I just got off the underground she was staying in a flat in King's cross because she was living abroad and she had a friend who'd let had the flat while she was here I think she was launching her book or something. And she said I said oh I'd love a glass of water and she said well I suppose I can do that but I do have some champagne. It's only way we abolished and you know a couple of bottles of champagne and and she really opened up and you know she really was a trailblazer I mean. I mean every move she made was scrutinized in the press and they weren't kind you know so so she really had to sort of you know, put a chin in the air and say screw you I'm gonna be me easy to say I'm hard to go. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
First button.I Dare to be me and.
So a real she made it easy for people like me I couldn' have done it without people like her and people like Jan Morris you know who wrote conundrum who again died not that long ago I think a year or two back was a very well known and she overcame it because she was always defined as a travel writer.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah.
First and foremost which is what she was she managed to say look I'm you know I'm living my life the way I want to live it and these are extraordinary people. We take it for granted a bit now but when we look back.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And.
And in the climate that there was in the country as well. They went extraordinarily brave you know and you had a look.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I I was I I grew up it was my my early memories or in the early 70 s born in 65 so I saw these kind of stories in the in the periphery of my vision that we were very.
Yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Middle class Straight-lacce Family. We didn't really yeah, my parents were but teachers there was no, there was no party or queerness about our ah street our family or anything like that. So but I was quite aware of some of these stories The sensation lies the I caught lips of on opening University when I happened to be off off. Home Ill or something or I was always very fascinated by um I suppose in those days you know, transsexual sensational stories and it that all it just became something inside me just knew that this they were talking about me as well. It just.
Yeah, yeah.Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Really really it was they it didn't necessarily but they didn't inspire me to change but they they they allowed me to start exploring who I was and and see me south through a aside different lens and.
yeah yeah I remember reading about Christine Jorgensen and and and getting that shiver down the back and think oh my god somebody like me didn't know there was anyone else. You know that kind of feeling so yeah side. So.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
A.
It's it's kind of like a 2 edge 2 sided coin the part he goes oh what relief and then the other part goes oh god what do I do now because it just felt impossible. You know I even know days I would never have Dreamt I would ever do it just thought I would keep it undercover.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah, it took thirty odd years for me to yeah.
For my whole life I didn't think I would ever do it by date. Ultimately.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Likewise yeah, there was no pathway was there. You had to be you had to be out there and yeah bulletproof or if you wanted to do it you. There's no sort of like everyday path.
Yeah, well I'm being treated being treated appallingly by Clinicians and so on that made it very clear. They didn't believe in it. But we're doing you a favor and you know we're rude.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Insulting. Yeah yeah, what that Bbc Tv documentary over was a 6 episodes wasn't there in the in the 70 s or eighty s about ah a trans woman who they documented her surgery and they she died a couple of years but and she she used to run a nightclub and.
Didn't answer the car's populence. It's awful.And had Julia it was Julia Grant and yeah and I saw the I saw it I saw it originally and I saw the follow-up. Um mean why anyone would do that I don't know but but she did but you know she had an extraordinary hard time.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Julia Chili Grant yesSo in.
First time round and I think she never really um, got to be particularly happy from what I could make of it for whatever reason I don't know but that was yeah hard and you know a doctor telling you exactly what you had to do what you couldn't do. I won't do this if you don't x and you know, almost having to plead to get anything done and.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. You? Um, and this threshold of of belief and you know you don't convince me, you can live as a woman until you convince me, you live as a woman and I'm not prepared to help you if I don't believe you can you can succeed in life. It's like it's ah a real ads thing.
I don't yeah I mean I think there's a merit that people living inro you know, be funny. Do things that are irreversible I'm not saying that it should be a particular length of time or a set the other but um, thing is help you know? Yeah, you have to know that you're going to cope I suppose. But.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And.
But you know it needs to have these and specified times and I remember I was involved with helping rewrite standards of care a while back and it used to be like you had to live in role for 2 years but that was before you even got referred for surgeries. So we said well look. You know the reality is you're talking about people like 7 years if you make it at least twelve months before a referral still going to be 2 years before anything happens so that got shifted um and then of course we got concerns about young people and so it goes on.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
A.
Whole things evolving as we speak. Um, so yeah, so it's interesting isn't there I mean some ways it's easier now. But I'm not sure that really, there's no leak table and and I think it's just different.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And so you you there were you um married children realizing that you want to explore your in um, innermost gender identity and then you found that.
Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Because of this precedent set by Ashley that you couldn't you couldn't get married you. You had to have your marriage and Nullland if you wanted to ah transition and you at that time of your life you you put your you got your plaquecard out. You've got your put your t-shirt on and set up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Um, going to do something about this.
Well yes I mean because I was denied the same rights as as other women, you know for things like pensions and benefits is is what it was about really so I fought to in the course and eventually um, we won the case. And and the crazy thing about it is it was a very short window because um, you know once we the the whole sort of take a step back. The whole premise was they didn't want to open the door to same-sex marriage. So I could have been granted. Um, what I was applying for. But only if the marriage was an old because they because it would have opened the door to same-sex bone. Well that happened anyway. So it was a very short window. Um, and and it did open. Floodgates for a few other people that were caught up in it in that same timeframe for me as me but all I was ever arguing for was I wanted the same rights as everybody else I wasn't asking for preferential treatment and luckily you know I talked about having so few issues with my dad but the 1 thing I did benefit from. I got his bloody mindedness and I thought screw this I'm not going to get divorce. Well empty was even worse at the time he had to a null it and I got 2 children i't know why I amm goingnna do that so I could just have gone quietly and I thought I screw this and I got a pro bono lawyer and we fought it took 10 years but we we got there in the end and the joke is for what it costs the government fighter could have paid me and a few others that it affected about 20 times over you know said there was a financial cost to the country by them. Not just doing it. Um.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And yeah you and you and I mean you told me the story before so you're kind of underplaying it. You went all the way all the way to the European court of Justice to do this in there. So.
Yeah, what and happened was we got um I mean the the wonderful part they'll tell you the the the the the best thing about this. It was ah it was very humbly I got a wonderful pro bono lawyer named Kerry oh. Um, give her her name by the time this finish was a qc a junior barrister when it started and in a couple of months or a few about a year into it. It. It was all getting heavier and ah and people in the community knew knew about it because I wasn't the first to challenge it other people had and um. And 2 solicitors came on board Chris and Jackie and they heard about said look we'd like to be involved because we you know you come barrister on their own's not be good. So then when we got to the court of appeal and it was referred to the supreme court. We got this amazing qc one of top barristers in the land came on board so like 4 top lawyers working pro bono not earning a penny and the supreme court decided I think because it was going to create a precedent because you get 5 judges or so I think it's sometimes 7 it's always an odd number for an obvious reason so you can get a decision. But they referred it I think it must have been split and I'll never know whether the three was for or against but they referred it to the european court of justice and 17 lordships heard the case and um and a year later came back. And it was their opinion that was sought so the supreme court actually made the ruling and they found for us so we'd won so that all took I don't know over 10 years. I was always remembered you remember Charles Dickens book bleak house it's about chancery and it it. was like that took forever. But these these lawyers I can't speak too highly of them and you know what I tried to buy them lunch in Luxembourg they wouldn't even let me buy them lunch. They insisted on buying mine I mean how amazing is that so you know my my lesson in life is when you do.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So.
Put your nose up above the parapet Good people often come on board but you've got to somehow find a way of stepping up before they do because otherwise I don't know about you and I will be forever honored by the fact that these lawyers.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So.
Represent You know they didn't just do it for me. They felt it was an injustice and it infected other people so it was amazing. You know, really still can't believe I still pinch myself now that I got that much out.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
He.So the impact of this ruling was the creation of the gender recognition at 2004 to allow people with.
Well they what it was is we were competing with that because the gender recognition act decreed that in order to get a gender recognition recognition certificate by then it was not an null and they changed it to divorce otherwise you couldn't get it. Then of course in 2010 when we had same sex mode became irrelevant then then that didn't matter anymore. So there were a few of us caught in that window for about 3 or 4 years where we were affected by it. So it was only a handful of us for goodness sake you know, but they were determined not to create a precedent.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And.
Government so they fought it tooth and now and I mean I just sit in courts over that 10 year period having every single derogatory term you can imagine used to describe me, you know and I to sit there quietly and be called a post-operative this and. Postopive that and you know Glos are in accuratecurate terms. But in the end we got there. So so it was worth it. But would I have done it I don't know and it was gonna take so long. Yeah, probably would have done just to make dad proud.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And.Yeah.
Ah, but you can only do it. You can't do this sort of thing on your own and that was you know and I repeat what I said earlier that was the biggest lesson for me and I say this to people all the time different books that I you know when you get up when you try to do something good people see you and come on board if you let them.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So.
Can't do it on our own none of us can do it on our own I think care whether you're we're speaking on the day after the world championship snooker final and Ronnie O'sullivan won it for the 7 time. He's got a coach. He's got his mindset coach. You know.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
5And.
You know, do it on his own. Yes, he's very talented and he works hard and spends hours at the practice table I'm sure we don't do it on his own. Got people who help him but then they know about you if you don't stand up.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So. What's the future. Then? What's the future for Trans we but we all said we're living in a time where there's a rise of gender criticality. If. That's that's a phrase where. We're we're being. We're being kind of pitted against think of the women think of the girls think of think of same-sex rights and what sort of gender-based rights and erasure of what it means to be a woman and that's being thrown at our ah feet.
Um.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Saying Trans people are ruining what it's me to be a woman and it.
Yeah, but you know and it's an interesting debate and let me tell you as somebody with 2 daughters and a granddaughter I'm passionate about women's rights can't not be but that but it gets conflated and they're 2 different. 2 different discussions or they should be. You know this notion that every trans woman is a potential sex beast you know and you know same-sex toilets women will be attacked I mean it's absolutely nonsense, but what is true. Is that women in society are subjected to violence sexual violence. All of that is important and extremely relevant and I would stand up and speak for any woman on that but don't confuse it with the issue. All trans women are suddenly going to be um, mad assaulters you know it's it's not true and there've been instances they always quote oh somebody got murdered was in ah, a prison or something right? 1 person and yes that sort of thing needs to be. Changed if that if that happened but let's not take away from the argument that we need women to have equality and it's it's the women in sport thing as well with trans people in sport. Of course we need an even playing field. Let's figure out how to do that rather than. Screaming abuse at each other you know what do you say? Yeah What do you say about castus perana who you remember caster semanna the south african athlete who got banned in the end because it was unfair. Well she's still a woman.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah, we we all want fairness We all we want fairness in society. We want fairness and sport. Yeah yeah.And.
Whatever people thought about her and I don't know the woman. There's maybe there's an intersex thing going on with my testosterone levels. Well, how do we resolve that. That's the debate.. How do we resolve So that women can compete on an even playing field if you excuse the part. That's an important discussion. Let's have that discussion and not confuse it with you know Trans women trying to replace women and you know and and and and and water their rights down I don't want that I don't want my daughters and my granddaughter to. Live lives where they feel threatened by violence physical and sexual and if my granddaughter and who's actually a really good gymnast if she goes for that I want her to have an equal playing field as Well. That's the discussion. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I Completely agree I want everybody to have fair a fair opportunity to compete in their chosen sport or whatever it is in life and ah without it being at the detriment of somebody else. Okay.
Not real in them where there.Yeah, and so if there is a trans woman who's full of testosterone and wins an event by you know a hundred meters by thirty yards or something ridiculous because they've got amford then we need to look at that. Um. But and it doesn't mean that you sort of make this blanket ban and say well that can't go. How do we measure it you know that that's.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah I think the impact is more likely to be on on Cis women not women who aren't trans who are suddenly too tall too too big and and there are some photographs of this. Ah some of these boxes and some of these.
Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Weight lifters were competing and they actually picked the vog person they said that's the Trans person. Well I actually know they weren't the Trans person they were assist they assist and so that what happens is you end up picking on people. You you think you're trying to protect.
Yeah.We're happening but also for somebody who said well we're gonna reach a point we you're going to need. Um, you're going to need a document to prove that you're a woman to go to a toilet. But if you think about it that means that all women have got to carry one have you distinguish You can't be because.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
A ah.
If You're if you've got a doubt about somebody. They've got to have a piece of paper haven't they and it might be somebody who has always had um a female Anatomy. You know a birth certificate that says Female. You're going to expect them to carry a document nobody thinks it's through you know we come up with all these solutions that are totally unworkable, but the real issue is how do we have equality in society for women. That's the issue.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I agree I complete.
People get confused with well this person shouldn't be able to go in that toilet but her hell cares Really well you talking about? it's good day.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yes, and it's a very. It's a very american british problem you look over over the world. Most toilets are holes in the floor or single cubicles in cafes you know you go to Spain on holiday. There are no gender toilets they're they're just toilets and.
Man you know I'm not saying none of these things are issues but the issue is about Well how do we do that as opposed to this thing about where you can't allow Trans women to go in this space or that space.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So.
Gives it them because the solutions that people come up with are totally unworkable anyway, so and its it and yeah yeah, but I repeat what I say how can I got I mean a family I have a female partner I got 2 daughters and a granddaughter I mean.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So yeah and they end up disadvantaging women at large generally yeah completely.
Sake You know I don't want them living in a well but I feel unsafe.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
No no and I completely agree and and on that note, we've been chatting away now for wow an hour plus so thank you so much. Um, lots of things there and it's been an honor catching out with you and just talking about your your e c j. Journey all those years ago and some of the groundbreaking work. You did to to benefit many many people. Um largely maybe at the time you were in the public eye. But now you've kind of just taking your t-shirt off and just killing on my life being you again. And yeah I really? Ah, really a biomis about that.
And in.And.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So do people get in contact with you if they want to um, take advantage of your coaching or psychotherapy services.
Well I'm not yeah yeah, ah Shelley Bridgman Bridgedman I'm on Linkedin. It's my main sort of social media platform and my website is http://Shelley Bridgmanbridgedgeman.com and my psychotherapy site is actually http://michellebridgeman.com but mostly I do coaching these days and b r I do g and aen. Yeah I had illiterate ancestors they left the e out somewhere along the London.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah, Abridgeman is b r I d g m a n note you know he in it. Yeah.Yeah, well thank you so much. Ah, so yeah, if you're if you're listening in you'd like to get in touch drop Shelly a Linkedin message check out her ah websites. Um, and maybe do some research on on some of the work she did.
Update yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
All those years ago the 10 years that she well battled battled the legal system with those ah barristers and and and solicitors that there to help her. So thank you so much and a huge thank you to use the listeners for tuning in for listening getting this far.
And.Thank you. 01:00:17.23 Joanne Lockwood Please do subscribe if you've not already have future episodes of the inclusion Bites podcast b I t yes, tell your friends tell your colleagues please share this I have also a number of other exciting guests lined up over the next few weeks and months that I'm sure you'd be equally inspired by. So if you'd like also if you'd like to be a guest then please let me know. Also welcome any suggestions or feedback on how we can improve the show to Jo Dot Lockwood a see change happen Dr Codey Uk finally my name is Joanne Lockwood it's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.
